Kenpo... On the Ground

[rmcrobertson]

I will not get further involved in this silly discussion, I will not get further involved in this silly discussion, I will not get further involved in this silly discussion....(imagine me writing this 1000 times, in penance).

 

[Touch Of Death]

Got ya.

 

[Kalicombat]

Touch of Death, hmmm,
Ok, well. First, Im not interested in ending a "fight". I dont fight any longer. If you read my post carefully, you'd have seen that most of the fights I have been involved in took place in and around bars. I no longer drink, and have matured considerabley since those days, so I dont find myself in the same predicaments that I once did. I am only interested in eliminating any and all physical threats to my family and myself. If someone is stupid enough to try to take me to the ground, then they have made their mistake, and what ever happens is on them. Im not going to get into a chest pounding thing with you. Its obvious you are a proponent of groundfighting, good for you. I am not. I form my opinions based solely on my experiences, things I have seen, and been a part of. Very, very few of my fights ever ended up on the ground. The ones that did were definetly not anything like you describe as someone choking me out with my own arm, lol.
In my previous post, I was trying to let others that may not have experienced many fights, that groundfighting is not end all of training avenues. It is one of the facets that must be considered to become a well rounded fighter, but not of primary focus. Also, I have know people that did encounter their first violent altercation, and they were not prepared to deal with the aftermath of having felt their opponents blood on their hands. It is not a warm and fuzzy feeling. Alot of skilled martial artists have been lost by this very realization when all they have known is "dojo fights". So, we'll go our seperate ways, agreeing to disagree I suppose on this very drawn out topic. If groundfighting is your thing, good luck. It just happens not to be mine.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

 

[Fastmover]

First post so take it easy on me!!!

I have been in Kenpo since 1980 and I have trained with Carlos Machado for a couple years. If there is one thing I have learned, the person makes the art and not the other way around. In the end everyone must do what is best for themselves individually.

Personally cross training in BJJ has benefited me greatly. Working on the ground requires that you develope a dynamic understanding of leverage. If you develope this skill by utilizing Kenpo then great. Let me say however that the quick and fast answer to getting yourself out of a ground fight by biting or eye gauging may place you from the frying pan into the fire. If you do not understand how to use leverage to your advantage, the odds are you are going to find yourself in a poor position. Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.

Just my thoughts

JC

 

[Touch Of Death]

Agreed.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.

Yeah, cause Holyfield ... when his ear was bitten off, he didn't
stop fighting and wither around in pain, all he could think about
was biting Tyson's ear off. That's what happens when you're in
intense pain, you logically think to dish it right back out.

 

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yeah, cause Holyfield ... when his ear was bitten off, he didn't
stop fighting and wither around in pain, all he could think about
was biting Tyson's ear off. That's what happens when you're in
intense pain, you logically think to dish it right back out.

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Oh, I didn't realize these guys were ground fighters. My bad.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

So Kirk: Your point is that training is really unimportant because biting negates any acquired martial skills? So, is there an art that emphasizes biting techniques? If so, sign me up today.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Oh, I didn't realize these guys were ground fighters. My bad.

Oh .. I didn't realize it was the claim of ground fighters that
they're more impervious to the pain of having flesh ripped from
their bodies! Wow, find me a school here in town, so I can learn
that!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
So Kirk: Your point is that training is really unimportant because biting negates any acquired martial skills? So, is there an art that emphasizes biting techniques? If so, sign me up today.

No, my point is that when you're rolling around on the floor with
other guys, that leaving your ears exposed to biting is NOT good.
In addition .. saying "oh if you bite my ear off, then I'll just go
ahead and gouge your eyes or bite your ears in kind" is bunk,
unless you lack the brain cells to feel intense pain.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kirk: a good bite will deter any trained fighter. The argument that a bite could disable a grappler is just as valid as the argument that a bite could stop the world's champion heavyweight boxer or a Kenpo black belt.

As far as defending against a grappler with a bite, if you're thinking of the scene in Enter the Dragon where John Saxon defended against an armbar with a bite, then you are not thinking realistically. In that scene, the grappler should have just picked his leg up and stomped Saxon's face. Good BJJ grapplers probably won't try an armbar in a street-fight -- much more likely to try a choke or to mount & strike.

And, the best BJJ grapplers I've rolled with won't get into a position to get bitten. Look at the main postions of BJJ: the mount, knee on stomach, the guard, the rear mount. When in any of these positions could you bite? Could a Kenpo fighter bite or gouge from underneath the mount? Against a triangle choke inside the guard? Against a choke from the rear mount? Not likely. That is why cross-training is important. That's why MMA fighters cross-train and that is why some of the best Kenpo schools cross-train.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I'm still looking for a copy of the newspaper article, but a few years back this "punk" high school kid started a fight with another high school, a wrestler. The wrestler wasn't any bigger than the other kid. Anyway, the punk kid took the wrestler to the ground and started using every dirty trick in the book. Witnesses said it took a minute or so for the wrestler to regain a top position where they quoted him as saying, "My face is the last thing you are ever going to see." The wrestler then put his thumbs in the other kids eyes rendering him blind for the rest of his life.

While I don't recall what happened afterwards or if there was even a trial, it just goes to show what someone who has the ability to gain superior a position can do.

Some of you guys out there are military buffs. I consider our special forces to be the best trained military forces on the planet. Does this mean they are invincible? Hell No! It simply means that they are incredibly well trained to deal with bad situations that they might find themselves in. Feel free to apply this where ever you see fit. :shrug:

I honestly can't believe you guys are still arguing over this. If you want to know what a true BJJ student is capable of go check out a Machado school or even a Gracie school. If you don't want to, great, train however you want but don't knock it until you've been up against a decent grappler (not some jackass wannabe).

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kirk: a good bite will deter any trained fighter. The argument that a bite could disable a grappler is just as valid as the argument that a bite could stop the world's champion heavyweight boxer or a Kenpo black belt.

That's what I'm saying! The guy that I rolled with was in constant
biting range ... we rolled after he lectured me about the
ineffectiveness of kenpo, and how fighting is "just physics".

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
As far as defending against a grappler with a bite, if you're thinking of the scene in Enter the Dragon where John Saxon defended against an armbar with a bite, then you are not thinking realistically. In that scene, the grappler should have just picked his leg up and stomped Saxon's face. Good BJJ grapplers probably won't try an armbar in a street-fight -- much more likely to try a choke or to mount & strike.

No .. I'm thinking that a cheek, ear, nose .. whatever's within my
teeth's range. When Holyfield's ear was bitten .. that TIIINY little
piece made him squeal .. he didn't think about about throwing
punching combinations or anything else other than "oh my God
that hurts"

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

And, the best BJJ grapplers I've rolled with won't get into a position to get bitten. Look at the main postions of BJJ: the mount, knee on stomach, the guard, the rear mount. When in any of these positions could you bite? Could a Kenpo fighter bite or gouge from underneath the mount? Against a triangle choke inside the guard? Against a choke from the rear mount? Not likely. That is why cross-training is important. That's why MMA fighters cross-train and that is why some of the best Kenpo schools cross-train.

Well I rolled with "anyone who studies BJJ" like you said, and
that's what my experience was. Yet I still admit as I have in the
past, it was ONE guy. But I argue the biting point because:

Originally posted by Fastmover
Remember if you elect to bite and/or eye gauge, your opponent can elect to do the same thing and if your opponent is a skilled ground fighter he will be doing it from a much better position.

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Agreed.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo Yahoo:

I honestly can't believe you guys are still arguing over this. If you want to know what a true BJJ student is capable of go check out a Machado school or even a Gracie school. If you don't want to, great, train however you want but don't knock it until you've been up against a decent grappler (not some jackass wannabe).

Well said.

It is disappointing to hear Kenpoists -- students of one of the most comprehensive, best thought out, most analytical arts -- arguing that if they get into a grappling situation that they would rather bite their way out than train to defend themselves properly. This really makes me concerned for the future of Kenpo.

Most BJJ'ers think BJJ is the best art. But, I haven't met one who thinks BJJ makes him impervious to pain or immune to a good punch. BJJ people know that they can grapple but that they haven't trained for standup fighting. Those interested in self-defense cross-train in boxing, kick-boxing, or Muay Thai which they usually approach with enthusiasm and an open mind.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kirk
That's what I'm saying! The guy that I rolled with was in constant
No .. I'm thinking that a cheek, ear, nose .. whatever's within my
teeth's range. When Holyfield's ear was bitten .. that TIIINY little
piece made him squeal .. he didn't think about about throwing
punching combinations or anything else other than "oh my God
that hurts

First of all, If Hollyfield had been training for the bite he would have acted accordingly. Had this move been on the table he would have very deliberatly enacted a defennse. Sure he was caught off guard. I'm still trying to figure out why a non-grappling sports practitioner is being used to prove the inefectiveness of ground fighters but what the heck. Biting exposes the throat so as long as a person isn't wearing a couple of big goofy boxing gloves, a simple defense can be employed. when fighting a grappler you will find that your arms and legs will be canceled out and that jaw of yours will be pinned shut with a shoulder or a heel palm so good luck on those non-positional adjustments, for all the good it will do you. To bad your opponent won't realize your shoulders, elbows, and kneck don't bend that way.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Uh...what fancy high kicks in kenpo would these be, exactly?

My mistake. I was referring to TKD. Actually, any kick above the waist is crazy. Why bother to kick someone in the chest, not that it isn't a bad thing to do, when you can kick the groin, knee, or stomp on the foot

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Touch of Death, hmmm,
Ok, well. First, Im not interested in ending a "fight". I dont fight any longer. If you read my post carefully, you'd have seen that most of the fights I have been involved in took place in and around bars. I no longer drink, and have matured considerabley since those days, so I dont find myself in the same predicaments that I once did. I am only interested in eliminating any and all physical threats to my family and myself. If someone is stupid enough to try to take me to the ground, then they have made their mistake, and what ever happens is on them. Im not going to get into a chest pounding thing with you. Its obvious you are a proponent of groundfighting, good for you. I am not. I form my opinions based solely on my experiences, things I have seen, and been a part of. Very, very few of my fights ever ended up on the ground. The ones that did were definetly not anything like you describe as someone choking me out with my own arm, lol.
In my previous post, I was trying to let others that may not have experienced many fights, that groundfighting is not end all of training avenues. It is one of the facets that must be considered to become a well rounded fighter, but not of primary focus. Also, I have know people that did encounter their first violent altercation, and they were not prepared to deal with the aftermath of having felt their opponents blood on their hands. It is not a warm and fuzzy feeling. Alot of skilled martial artists have been lost by this very realization when all they have known is "dojo fights". So, we'll go our seperate ways, agreeing to disagree I suppose on this very drawn out topic. If groundfighting is your thing, good luck. It just happens not to be mine.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

Well, everybodys fights are different. Everybody is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. However, for someone to think that they will not ever get taken down in a fight is a huge mistake. Its one thing to be confident, you there is a thing called over-confidence. Like I have said before, grappling is not the end all of combat. Niether is stand up. If you fall to the ground and your opp. follows you, then it would be wise to know enough to at least get back to your feet. I have trained with alot of grapplers and wrestlers, and I can assure you, that if they want to take you down, they will, and they will do so, even if they take a shot while doing it.

I have trained in a stand up style for the majority of my training, but considering the ground is a place where I might end up, Ive decided to learn it. If you choose not to, then that is your choice, and you are entitled to it, but don't think that you will never end up on the ground.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Dont forget about an art that Paul Vunak teaches- kino mutai--it consists of biting, as well as where and how to bite properly. Kenpo is an excellent art, so I don't want ANYBODY to think that I'm against it--I've been doing it for 17 yrs!! However, no art is the best art. If that was the case, then there would only be 1 school, and the teacher would be the richest man alive because everybody would train with him. In regards to the biting, eye pokes, etc. In MMA, there are rules. Just because they don't to that in those fights, does not mean that on the street, they don't know how to bite and poke.

It's good to be prepared for all situations--punching, kicking, clinching, and grappling. Even Chuck Norris and Dan Inosanto, who are excellent MA in their own right, and have been doing primarily stand up arts for the majority of their training, have sought out the Machados to learn grappling. They have done what alot of us need to do---empty our cups and begin to learn again!

Mike

 

[Kempojujutsu]

A BJJ martial artist will go to all lengths to learn to defend against attackers, and learn to strike to punch. This includes learning boxing, muay Thai and even kenpo. It seems some kenpoist will not learn grappling to better kenpo. Because it is not true kenpo or Mr. Parker didn't teach it until Black Belt level. I am sure this will ruffles some feathers. I am not trying to just make a point. Here is another good example from kenpo. Don't they have different techniques for same type of attacks. Why? In case technique 1 doesn't work can go into technique 2 or 3 etc. What if ground fighting technique doesn't work eye gouge or bite. The other issue to bite is health reasons. HIV, Hiptitiss (SP) B.
Bob:asian: