Kenpo... On the Ground
- Thread starter True2Kenpo
- Start date
T
twinkletoes
Guest
There is now a new thread called "Favorite Game or Drill."
Let's see if we can calmly and constructively share knowledge in that thread. I fear this one is doomed.
Best,
~TT
Let's see if we can calmly and constructively share knowledge in that thread. I fear this one is doomed.
Best,
~TT
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Dear MJS:
To support what Kirk, Seig and others have written, many of us have told you who we are, how we train, who our instructors are, what we think, and we've all pretty much been told, in response, that we're idiots. And so are our teachers. (As one example, please see a) your repeated use of the words, "holes," and "realistic," b) my response to your question about what you had ever said that asserted my instructor didn't know what he was doing.)
Moreover, you've either a) insistently polarized the discussion, b) consistently refused to credit what you've been told about other people's training, "on the ground," or c) immediately shifted the terms of your question/statement, so that what starts out as a claim that there is no groundfighting in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that there is no grappling in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that the opponent could still do... (insert escape or counter here) immediately becomes a claim that they do this better in BJJ. Please chack the posts, and you'll see it.
I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing. I simply have some questions, I don't think this has anything to do with what's "wrong," with kenpo, and I don't wish to do it myself. And before you sound off about how unprepared I'll be, it would seem I was prepared before I ever started kenpo. After all, I'm not dead. And as a result, I am simply not going to go try and fill in every, "hole," in my martial arts practice--of which, let me assure you, the stuff you recommend represents only one class.
Just to keep the ball rolling, though--do you really think that piling on more techniques from other systems will save you, should the Big Crunch come?
Mr. Billings, again, I don't quite agree with the way the discussion's been divided up into these polar opposites. But I liked your comments.
Thanks.
To support what Kirk, Seig and others have written, many of us have told you who we are, how we train, who our instructors are, what we think, and we've all pretty much been told, in response, that we're idiots. And so are our teachers. (As one example, please see a) your repeated use of the words, "holes," and "realistic," b) my response to your question about what you had ever said that asserted my instructor didn't know what he was doing.)
Moreover, you've either a) insistently polarized the discussion, b) consistently refused to credit what you've been told about other people's training, "on the ground," or c) immediately shifted the terms of your question/statement, so that what starts out as a claim that there is no groundfighting in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that there is no grappling in kenpo immediately becomes a claim that the opponent could still do... (insert escape or counter here) immediately becomes a claim that they do this better in BJJ. Please chack the posts, and you'll see it.
I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing. I simply have some questions, I don't think this has anything to do with what's "wrong," with kenpo, and I don't wish to do it myself. And before you sound off about how unprepared I'll be, it would seem I was prepared before I ever started kenpo. After all, I'm not dead. And as a result, I am simply not going to go try and fill in every, "hole," in my martial arts practice--of which, let me assure you, the stuff you recommend represents only one class.
Just to keep the ball rolling, though--do you really think that piling on more techniques from other systems will save you, should the Big Crunch come?
Mr. Billings, again, I don't quite agree with the way the discussion's been divided up into these polar opposites. But I liked your comments.
Thanks.
Robert- regarding your post. I am obviously not as fortunate as you or some of the others to be training under the inst. that you train under. The holes that I refer to...well, maybe those are the holes in my own training. I mention the ground, and all of a sudden the surge of negativity comes in. For everybody to talk bad about the ground, is really no different than me talking bad about your training. You mention doing your Kenpo tech on the ground. You mentioned doing one that was taken from snapping twig, I believe. When I commented on the exposure that it leaves for your arm, again, I got the negativity. Has anybody done these against a grappler? Maybe you have, maybe not. Does everybody need to learn grappling? NO. I use the term 'close minded', because it seems like every time myself or someone else mentions it, the response is, is that you will never end up on the ground. Well, that might be the case, but there is a first time for everything. I am simply making a suggestion. If you dont want to learn BJJ or any other art such as Judo, that is fine, but by you speaking badly of it, is really no different than me saying that you should do it! You constantly ask about my exp. and think that I know everything. Well, what is your exp. in that field? Do you have any? If so, do tell. You claim.."Who am I to judge you and your inst." Well, you are doing the same thing. Rather than asking questions and using this forum like it is supposed to be used, by sharing knowledge, it turns into a bashing session. Should you pile on more tech.? That is up to the individual person. If someone wants to do it, why do you look down upon them? I simply stated, when I made the first post, was that I have not seen ground work in Kenpo. If you do it at your school and you make it work, great. I"m happy for you. Are you going to tell me though, that you are totally prepared for every situation you will encounter? I know that I'm not prepared. Let me ask you this.. You talk about running away from a situation as a useful tool, which yes, it is. What if, while running, you fell down. Before you have a chance to get up and continue the running, your attacker gets on top of his downed victim and continues to beat the crap out of him. Don't you think a little grappling exp. will be usefull here?
Mike
Mike
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Dear MJS:
This is hopeless. For whatever reason, you insist upon reading disagreements with your position, and questions about its logic, as "negativity," as, "bashing," as denials of "reality."
And, you insist on couching your arguments in terms that, whether or not you mean it, are really rather insulting.
I'd ask you to go back and actually read what I've written, but that won't help.
So I'm bowing out of this one: no more responses to your posts.
The discussion was interesting, however, and helped me think through a few things. For that, thanks for your help.
This is hopeless. For whatever reason, you insist upon reading disagreements with your position, and questions about its logic, as "negativity," as, "bashing," as denials of "reality."
And, you insist on couching your arguments in terms that, whether or not you mean it, are really rather insulting.
I'd ask you to go back and actually read what I've written, but that won't help.
So I'm bowing out of this one: no more responses to your posts.
The discussion was interesting, however, and helped me think through a few things. For that, thanks for your help.
Well Robert, its a shame that you can't bring yourself down a few pegs and listen to other ideas that people have. But, like I always go back to..the closed mindedness...Everytime I make a post, suggestion, comment, or whatever, you always have something to say. You are on a one way road, with no other option but to go straight. You, due to being so stubborn, can't bring yourself to learn anything new or take a comment bad or good, from anybody. I have tried to explain that I am not perfect, and never said that I was. However, it is you, that always seem to have the last word..and that last word is usually a close minded one. Thanks for bowing out!
I have gone back and re read your first post to this thread...and you'll never guess what I saw...your own negativity towards any kind of change!
MJS
I have gone back and re read your first post to this thread...and you'll never guess what I saw...your own negativity towards any kind of change!
MJS
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Mike, Robert: We all have different experiences, objectives, and opinions here. You've both said some strong stuff and both made some good (and occassionaly not so good) points. I hope that we can continue friendly discussion and that if you two should ever meet that you don't fall to the ground and start biting each other. Seriously though, I've enjoyed talking/listening with both of you and I hope neither of you go away.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I think your post can speak for your ideas and approach, so I'll let that be the last word.
"Well Robert, its a shame that you can't bring yourself down a few pegs and listen to other ideas that people have. But, like I alwasy go back to..the closed mindedness...Everytime I make a post, suggestion, comment, or whatever, you always have something to say. You are on a one way road, with no other option but to go straight. You, due to being so stubborn, can't bring yourself to learn anything new or take a comment bad or good, from anybody. I have tried to explain that I am not perfect, and never said that I was. However, it is you, that always seem to have the last word..and that last word is usually a close minded one. Thanks for bowing out!
MJS"
"Well Robert, its a shame that you can't bring yourself down a few pegs and listen to other ideas that people have. But, like I alwasy go back to..the closed mindedness...Everytime I make a post, suggestion, comment, or whatever, you always have something to say. You are on a one way road, with no other option but to go straight. You, due to being so stubborn, can't bring yourself to learn anything new or take a comment bad or good, from anybody. I have tried to explain that I am not perfect, and never said that I was. However, it is you, that always seem to have the last word..and that last word is usually a close minded one. Thanks for bowing out!
MJS"
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Boys! Stop it! Besides, I want to have the last word.
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twinkletoes
Guest
yeah, let OFK have the last word!
Or me!
~TT
Or me!
~TT
LOL!! Sorry OFK! Funny thing here is that Rob must think that we are all robots and must do what he does. Opps...Wait a min...isnt that what he thinks I want everybody to do...drop their Kenpo and train like I do!!LOL!LOL! I have never said that, and never will say that. All I'm guily of is making a comment regarding the forum topic. Rob here, well, he thinks that everything I say is insulting...well, in this case, in this post, I guess it is!!! I guess his way of doing things is to just keep waiting and waiting, until maybe that day comes along when he 'sees the light at the end of the tunnel' Well, thats fine for him. but not everybody has to do that!!!! I forgot, Rob does the same things that he accuses me of....having all the answers. Well Rob, its unfortunatel that you see it like that. Just becuase I cross train--oopppss...I said that bad word again....he thinks that I am violating the Kenpo rules!! I"m not guilty of anything other than making a suggestion. And I stand firm that I never said that anybody has to follow me...only to look at all the options they have in front of them...if they want to do it..good,,if not, thats good too!
MJS
Funny thing here---look back to the first page of this thread....look at what Atlanta Kenpo says in his post. Funny how he said the same as me and gee, how is the one taking all the heat??? ME!! There are more people than you think on here that agree. Maybe they say it, and maybe they dont. I know that i say it and am proud of it!
MJS
MJS
K
Kirk
Guest
Bully for you. But can you just leave the rest of the forum alone, and not make every....single...post a fricken grappling discussion.
All that there is to say about it has been said, time and time again. Can't people talk about kenpo without someone coming in and going "you'd better learn to grapple or your art will wither away". Let it go for Christ's sake.
Funny thing Kirk--Look who is talking about grappling right now...YOU!!! Listen closely...I have not said that we have to abandon Kenpo to learn BJJ, just to keep the door open to the possibilities that you might end up there. You guys have a very bad habit of turning other peoples words into your own statements. The things that are coming out of your mouth are just the twisted thoughts that you want everybody to hear. You're trying to take my training ideas and make them sound like I say I have the best way of training...well, not the case..very far from the truth. You guys jsut cant let it die though...I have said that i want to get on with some decent discussions and its guys like you Kirk that just keep the ball rolling....Why dont YOU "let it go!!"
MJS
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Kirk
Guest
I'm not the one participating in FOUR .. count them FOUR seperate threads about it!! What OTHER threads have you participated in ???? Pretty darn close to zero???
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
From Kirk's Martial Talk Signature....
1500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo was the center of the universe. 500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo practitioners would never question what future of Kenpo was. And 15 posts ago, you "knew" that you were on the right path with your Kenpo practice. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
1500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo was the center of the universe. 500 lessons ago, everyone "knew" that Kenpo practitioners would never question what future of Kenpo was. And 15 posts ago, you "knew" that you were on the right path with your Kenpo practice. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow.
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Kirk
Guest
And your point is what? I've said one thing about this whole subject, and that was conveying my one experience with a grappler. I'm a purple belt, I'm just focusing on learning the curriculum right now, thank you. I'll worry about cross training later. But OFK .. how about going outside the box and just discussing kenpo? Instead of beating a dead horse? Maybe the best way you can get the converts your seeking is by sharing the kenpo knowledge you claim to have, and earning people's respect for your knowledge? I'll bet more people would be willing to hear what you have to say once you've proven that you have other knowledge and experience besides getting your butt kicked by a grappler.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Kirk: Ouch that hurt, but you've made a very good point. I should talk more about my Kenpo experiences. OK, I will, but they won't add much to the other Kenpo experiences and technical info you've seen here. I did start doing Kenpo in 1973 and did get my 3rd Degree in 1993--learning the entire curriculum in my Kenpo branch. My instructor (now retired) recieved his rank from both Ed Parker and Al Tracy before those two split and finalized the curriculums we see today. I did seek to learn more than Kenpo during my first twenty years in our art studying some Shotokan (really helped my punches, front kicks, and explosion), some Escrima (learned some really useful club & knife defenses & techniques), and a lot of Aiki-Jujitsu (learned some stand-up grappling, takedowns, and finishing holds that were really complementary to Kenpo).
But I am not a Kenpo superman or guru -- I've never claimed to be one. I won't even claim to be any good at Kenpo (or BJJ or anything else), just old and experienced and opinionated. Now there are many many Kenpo people who understand and can explain/do Kenpo much much better than I can. So then since I'm not a Kenpo hot-shot, how can I add value to the Martialtalk discussion? By bringing something in from the outside. By throwing some new spices into the soup.
---taking a deep breath---
Now, you know a little more about me and I know that you are a Kenpo Purple Belt with nearly 3,600 posts on Martialtalk. So, I will constructively opine about a good personal path you might want to take: Kenpo is good stuff. Possibly the best stuff. You should continue on your Kenpo path. You should learn all the Kenpo material available to you. You should continue learning and improving your Kenpo until you have achieved the highest rank and level of expertise you can: 3rd degree or 5th degree depending on whether you are on a 24 or 16 technique curriculum, higher if you want to more.
Then, when you've learned everything that is available to you, you should do some introspection: what should you do next? Should you learn more Kenpo? Should you go back to college? Should you spend some more time with your family? Should you learn another martial art or another sport? Should you focus on your career? You will need to ask yourself those questions when you learn all of your EPAK curriculum and come to the next fork in the road. I have done ALL those things in the last 10 years. I discovered for myself is that I don't know everything there is to know, that I am not a martial arts hot-shot, that my 3rd degree black belt makes me a better person, but it doesn't make me invincible, and that there is a big wide world out there with a lot more going on than what we do inside our dojos. One of those things I discovered was grappling and I am suggesting to Kenpo people that they shouldn't ignore it. As for you, right now, you are on a good path and I won't try and disuade you from it.
Now as to the specific point of my last post. I do sincerely hope that you can take your signature quotation seriously. I suspect that you do since you've made several thousand posts. I hope you can question your assumptions, question authority, seek additional knowledge, and do so without disrespect to those who disagree with you--even when you find them rude and annoying.
But I am not a Kenpo superman or guru -- I've never claimed to be one. I won't even claim to be any good at Kenpo (or BJJ or anything else), just old and experienced and opinionated. Now there are many many Kenpo people who understand and can explain/do Kenpo much much better than I can. So then since I'm not a Kenpo hot-shot, how can I add value to the Martialtalk discussion? By bringing something in from the outside. By throwing some new spices into the soup.
---taking a deep breath---
Now, you know a little more about me and I know that you are a Kenpo Purple Belt with nearly 3,600 posts on Martialtalk. So, I will constructively opine about a good personal path you might want to take: Kenpo is good stuff. Possibly the best stuff. You should continue on your Kenpo path. You should learn all the Kenpo material available to you. You should continue learning and improving your Kenpo until you have achieved the highest rank and level of expertise you can: 3rd degree or 5th degree depending on whether you are on a 24 or 16 technique curriculum, higher if you want to more.
Then, when you've learned everything that is available to you, you should do some introspection: what should you do next? Should you learn more Kenpo? Should you go back to college? Should you spend some more time with your family? Should you learn another martial art or another sport? Should you focus on your career? You will need to ask yourself those questions when you learn all of your EPAK curriculum and come to the next fork in the road. I have done ALL those things in the last 10 years. I discovered for myself is that I don't know everything there is to know, that I am not a martial arts hot-shot, that my 3rd degree black belt makes me a better person, but it doesn't make me invincible, and that there is a big wide world out there with a lot more going on than what we do inside our dojos. One of those things I discovered was grappling and I am suggesting to Kenpo people that they shouldn't ignore it. As for you, right now, you are on a good path and I won't try and disuade you from it.
Now as to the specific point of my last post. I do sincerely hope that you can take your signature quotation seriously. I suspect that you do since you've made several thousand posts. I hope you can question your assumptions, question authority, seek additional knowledge, and do so without disrespect to those who disagree with you--even when you find them rude and annoying.
K
Kirk
Guest
Point made, point taken. But when there's nothing else going on in the kenpo forum here, somethings wrong. This used to be the most active kenpo forum out there. Now many have resorted to possibly only lurking, or posting on various other forums. A history quite common to kenpo forums. Some have resorted to older, archaic, less organized forums. Much less sharing going on these days (and it WAS before summer rolled around that this started happening). The most active current threads in the kenpo forum are all discussing grappling right now, and it's been that way for all too long.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Kirk: I agree. The grappling debate has been going on a long time. I try and stay off the Kenpo Technical forum to let others talk about Kenpo techniques there. I do think that there is validity to discussing fighting strategy and training strategy on the general Kenpo forum. It just seems like the same people (myself included) are into rehashing.
