Kenpo... On the Ground

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Let me say I've never had to beat my way out of a situation with a person holding a knife. I managed to talk them out of using it all three times a weapon came into play. Oddly enough, the voice of reason took over in them and they put it away. I was really pushing them when I told them where the knife would end up should they not, and the fact they didn't know I was armed as well. They decided to play their trump first by showing the blade, I didn't. Fortunately, it worked out in both our favor. I don't train with a live blade, that's just stupid, and I'm certainly not beyond running like a schoolboy let out for recess. Oh well.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Well, stupid as it may sound, I'm not saying that you have to go full speed, but training with a live blade is not stupid. In fact, that is what you will face on the street, not a rubber knife. You have no way to tell, with rubber, if you've been cut or not. The fact that you were able to talk your way out is great, and is something that we all should do. Unfortunately, that will not always work.

MS

 

[Fastmover]

Training with a live blade is a little too hard core. One slip up and
you could have a life time injury. Plus with a live blade I think your
attacker will be holding back a little. Try using a black or red marker, with that you will know whether you were cut of not and your attacker will take pleassure in trying to trying to make a mark.

Just an idea

 

[MJS]

To clarify---Of course, you run the risk of a very serious injury. Attemping the disarm at 1/4 or 1/2 speed will definately open your eyes. Is doing this for everybody? NO. I do know of people that train this, just for that "real" feeling.

MS

 

[rmcrobertson]

My understanding of knives n' guns began with a set of rules my teachers passed down to me--and here are the first two: Rule 1: don't take on somebody with a knife or gun, unless you're pretty sure they're going to kill you. Rule 2: if you take on somebody with a knife, be prepared to get cut.

My understanding of realism, in this case, is this: if you use a live blade and, "train realistically," you will be cut. Inevitably, but probably pretty soon.

Or, the guy with the knife will...take a look at the first knife tech in the standard curriculum, "Raining Lance," which begins as you step in and redirect the knife into the attacker's right thigh. (Well, if they're lucky, the thigh.) I don't see how to be "realistic," in the sense just advanced, and leave out this little step.

For example, shouldn't you have blood pouring over the leg, hand and knife to make sure that the check is done properly, rather than rely on an uncertain grab? Shouldn't you really do the Tiger's Mouth shot to the eyes, so's you can get used to having somebody react while you're close, and they have a knife in their hand?

No? All training involves a degree of realism, and a degree of unrealism. We can certainly discuss the spectrum from "real," to "unreal," but it doesn't help to simply claim that everybody else is being "unrealistic," because they don't use a live blade.

There is, in the sword arts, a tradition of using a live blade. Kensho Furuya, if I recall correctly, says that you can only learn this way, since otherwise you won't have the proper respect--actually, he writes, "fear"--for the sword. However, they are doing kata and basics, not sparring.

I'm still a couple of years away from there being any point in my trying to learn Form 8 in kenpo, the knife form. And when I do, I'm going to do what everybody else does...wooden knives, or dull blades and a lotta duct tape over the edges. I've seen, and experienced, what it's like to get worked on with even dull, taped blades...and, I might add, if we're going to talk realism, there are clearly aspects to that form that cannot be learned without putting metal on skin.

I believe that the same applies to the knife techs.

Thank you.

 

[MJS]

True--this is not for everybody. I would recommend at the very least, using a marker, or something that will leave some sort of a mark. There is actually a company that sells a training blade that has a material on the edges. You can apply something such as lipstick to the edges, which will leave a mark on you showing that you "got cut". Using something like this, rather than a regular training knife will at least give you that "real" feeling.

Mike

 

[twinkletoes]

Guys,

Don't worry, I'm agreeing. I just want to add in, and do a little clarifying too.

Clyde,

You mentioned that the first strategy is always running. I agree. I do and teach the same. In fact, this drill is one I half-jokingly call "The Ego killer" because it teaches students (and instructors alike) that none of us should be thinking about taking on a knife, ever. It's just plain macho and stupid. I too have talked my way out of numerous altercations over the years. I agree that it is the mature and adult way to deal with this.

My only beef with your post is that you read some things into my description of the drill. (I waited, I didn't hit him full power & speed, etc.). I won't argue over the drill itself. I just want the point of the drill--the ego killer--to get across.


And to everyone else, I never said my drill was un-kenpo, before anyone implies that I did. It's a kenpo drill that I taught in a kenpo class. And it's alive and useful.

Robert,

I agree that live blade training is for real fanatics. (How did we get on this topic???) You are also right when you say that all training is somewhere on a spectrum from realistic to unrealistic. I think it was Tony Blauer who said something like "All training is fake fighting, so fake fight as realistically as you can!" I think we both probably agree with this, with considerations for safety of course.

I work with an instructor who uses live blades in training. He doesn't do this all the time, because obviously safety is difficult. He does it from time to time for his own training, and this past week did it with his advanced kali students.

Personally, I'm not ready for this. It will be some time before I do feel ready for something training with a live blade. I want to train safely! I'll say again: live blade training is for real fanatics.

I also think, though, that if you want to train knife disarms, you need to do this at some point in your training. I understand that there are safety risks. But I think it needs to be done to teach you 1) respect for the blade and 2) how much our egos can be in control.

Now, if someone is a hobbyist, and isn't in the martial arts for that kind of thing, then I completely understand. They shouldn't do this kind of training! The risks far outweigh the benefits. However, if they are training for some kind of "self-defense" (whatever that means to them) and they elect to learn knife disarms, I think it behooves them to get to this point in their training. Why? Because I think that knife disarming is for fanatics too.

If one is a hobbyist, or learning them for curiosity's sake, or learning them to round out some understanding of movement or grip or whatever, then again, they should not do any live blade training. But if they have a desire to develop skill in knife disarming, well, then I think they need to have a time when they do it on a real knife. I think that having the desire to develop that skill necessitates that.

I find myself on the fanatic side of the line. I want to develop enough skill that if, and I certainly don't see it happening, but if it were ever necessary I could be confident in that skill. And I think to do so behooves me to train, at some point, when my skill level is high enough, to train with a live blade. Until then, I do not think it should even be an option in my mind to ever think about a disarm--not until I have disarmed a live blade in training.

In the end, I say all this to agree, not to disagree. Please don't think I'm arguing with you, but since the live blade conversation came up, I think these are some things we should consider.

Best,

~TT

 

[twinkletoes]

PS - What I've said about knife training and fanatics also applies to firearm training. The only difference is that when it comes to firearm training I am not a fanatic! I have learned disarm techniques, and I don't practice them on anything tougher than a squirtgun.

Why is my approach different in this case? Because I don't have the desire to develop a high enough skill level with these techniques to actually pull them off. In this realm I am more of a hobbyist, and I learn the techniques to help round out certain understandings of grip releasing and body mechanics. I don't want to spend enough time around firearms that I would feel comfortable grabbing somebody's! That is too much for me!

Best,

~TT

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, never used--or hinted at, or had in mind--the word, "fanatics."

Nor would I use terminology such as, "hobbbyist."

Not only does such language introduce insults into the discussion, but more importantly they represent an inaccurate structuration of the issues.

For example, it simply is not the case that, "in this corner, we have the fanatics! They train realistically, with live blades! for real self-defense!" and "in the other corner, we have their opponent, the hobbyist with a squirt gun!"

This is what's called a, "binary opposition." In this case, it's wrong.

All training is "unrealistic," in some sense. All martial arts training--even tae-bo--teaches self-defense. It may not be very effective self-defense, but that's another issue.

My point was that not just that training with a
"live" blade is unnecessarily dangerous, but that--more importantly--if we're really gonna talk realism, in the sense I keep reading so much about, it means that you must cut somebody and be cut.

I also simply don't believe it's necessary, and I believe it unnecessarily reinforces ideas of toughness, invulnerability, and threat that remain a problem in the martial arts.

Or to repeat Mr. Chapel, "There are no ninjas in the parking lot." In terms of self-defense, we are training to handle--if absolutely necessary!--the kind of idiot who jumps us on the street, or starts a fight for no reason, or breaks into the house, etc. We are not training to get into "Hollywood," knife fights, or become samurai or Green Berets.

And we damn sure ought to be training, to repeat Clyde, to have the sense to run like hell away from a knife if at all possible.

And oh yes. I have had somebody come after me with a knife. I have had somebody stick a gun in my ear. "For real." I have also worked extensively in hospitals, and I have--"for real"--seen up close what knives and guns do to the human body.

But to make the long story short, I don't agree that anybody who trains with a life blade is a "fanatic." Nor do I think that this string is a question of "traditionalists," vs. "innovators," or "realists," vs. "hobbyists."

Thanks.

 

[MJS]

I think the terms "hobbiest" and "fanatic" can be a little vauge, and anybody who reads this will have different translations of what it means. Everybody does the arts for different reasons--weight loss, self confidence/control, self defense, and just for an extra activity to do outside of working. We have spent alot of time bad mouthing each other about the types of training that we all do, and when you stop and think about it, where has it gotten any of us?? Nowhere!

Training with a live blade is very dangerous, and is not for everybody. Am I saying that everybody needs to or should do this to get the most out of their training? NO! It shold be somthing that is up to the individual person to do if they choose to. If you do disarms in kenpo, and I'm sure that we all do, and you feel comfortable with them and confident that they will work, great! I do think however, that we should take into consideratin that a wooden or rubber knife does not give a good test as to if the disarm is going to work or not. Using a marker, or the knife that i mentioned that has a material around the edges that you can apply lipstick to, would probably give you a better feeling and a much safer feeling of whether or not the disarm is going to work.

Robert, I think the term "hobbiest" that TT used was not to say that anybody who does not train with a real blade is wasting his or her time. I think a better way of saying it would be, that the hobbiest is the one who wants to train with the knife. This is something that they want to do in their own training for their own reasons. I don't think it was a shot directed at you or anyone else.

I know that some of us, myself included, have come across as having this cocky attitude that we know everything. Once again, forgive me, but this is not how I was trying to come across. I realize that we all train differently and we all have different inst. who all come from various backgrounds. As for myself, as i don't want to speak for others, I was just going on my own experiences in my own training and some of the weak spots that I have seen. Does this mean that they are in your training? NO! I think the idea of the forums is to talk about our training and share, in a FRIENDLY way, all of the expereinces of our training. Just because someone mentions grappling, NOBODY should degrade look down upon that person just because they do not do it. We all are intitled to train aswe want. If someone has no interest in grappling, thats ok, but still keep an open mind and realize that there is something to learn from every art, no matter what it might be, no matter how stupid you might think that it is. To constantly argue about the best way to do this or that, is not going to get us anywhere.

Also, in my posts, I use the word "YOU" I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ONE PERSON IN GENERAL, BUT EVERYBODY AS A WHOLE! I don't want ANYBODY to think that I am singling them out.

My best to everyone, and I look forward to having more friendly discussions with everybody!!

Mike

 

[twinkletoes]

Sorry Robert,

I just realized my mistake. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was agreeing with your use of "fanatics" (since you didn't use it).

I agree with you that live blade training is dangerous. I will use the word "fanatic" for people that take it to that level. I am a fanatic, and when I am skilled enough I will take it to that level.

My apologies for the confusion.

I also think when it comes to realism we might be discussing different things. That's ok. I agree with what you posted just now about it. There are no ninjas and I'm not in favor of reinforcing the stereotypes either. I don't see opposition between what we wrote, but perhaps I'm reading my own post differently than it sounds. I will agree that we are probably on the same track, as your post sounds reasonable.

Lastly, in response to "fanatics" vs. "hobbyists" I will agree with a couple things that Mike said. I don't use those terms to poke fun at anyone, except maybe myself. Mike said that different people come to the martial arts for different reasons: sometimes it is health, or self-esteem. Sometimes they want to make friends. Sometimes they want to learn things that look cool. Sometimes they want to feel safer. When I say "hobbyists" I refer to people who study casually--they are not fanatics, nor are they trying to make the martial arts their lifelong pursuit. They are doing it for fun, for health, or for social purposes ONLY. (Fanatics and lifelong people may ALSO have these reasons, but it is not their primary reason). I do not aim the title of "hobbyist" at anyone, but I have taught many of them over the years. They are looking for something fun to do. They figured why not try martial arts. Their level of involvement stays around that intensity.

Best,

~TT

 

[howardr]

MJS said:

Well, stupid as it may sound, I'm not saying that you have to go full speed, but training with a live blade is not stupid. In fact, that is what you will face on the street, not a rubber knife. You have no way to tell, with rubber, if you've been cut or not. The fact that you were able to talk your way out is great, and is something that we all should do. Unfortunately, that will not always work.

Given the fact, as has already been mentioned, that training with a live blade can so easily lead to accidental death or permanent disability (not to mention severe non-permanent injuries), it strikes as quite odd that you would advocate this. Why do I say that? Well, combining the high propensity of severe injury or death involved with training with a live blade with the fact that for the average person being attacked by a bladed individual is a statistically rarity, it does not seem to make sense to me that such training is anything other than stupid. (Especially when you can become significantly more likely to survive those rare knife encounters simply by training with dummy blades.)

Look at it this way: suppose you can become 90% as effective against knives as you can by using a dummy blade, but 100% as effective as you can by training using a live blade. For that extra 10% or so advantage you get from training with a live blade you run a extremely high chance of suffering severe and permanent injuries. In other words, you get a relatively small increase in skill by training with a live blade at the expense of a drastically high chance of terrible injury, all for the relatively low chance that you will ever be attacked by a bladed individual.

Am I missing something?

ps., do you train gun disarms against a fully loaded handgun, shotgun, rifle for that extra bit of realism?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by howardr
MJS said:



Given the fact, as has already been mentioned, that training with a live blade can so easily lead to accidental death or permanent disability (not to mention severe non-permanent injuries), it strikes as quite odd that you would advocate this. Why do I say that? Well, combining the high propensity of severe injury or death involved with training with a live blade with the fact that for the average person being attacked by a bladed individual is a statistically rarity, it does not seem to make sense to me that such training is anything other than stupid. (Especially when you can become significantly more likely to survive those rare knife encounters simply by training with dummy blades.)

Look at it this way: suppose you can become 90% as effective against knives as you can by using a dummy blade, but 100% as effective as you can by training using a live blade. For that extra 10% or so advantage you get from training with a live blade you run a extremely high chance of suffering severe and permanent injuries. In other words, you get a relatively small increase in skill by training with a live blade at the expense of a drastically high chance of terrible injury, all for the relatively low chance that you will ever be attacked by a bladed individual.

Am I missing something?

ps., do you train gun disarms against a fully loaded handgun, shotgun, rifle for that extra bit of realism?

Yup, you are missing something. Go back and re-read my last post as well as the posts by TT. You mention that knife attacks are rare. How do you figure this? Just the other day, there was an armed robbery in the city that I work in. The robber held a knife to the managers throat, while he demanded money and his car! Like I said in the post, it is something that not everybody is going to want to do.

As for the gun defneses. Use a water gun. That way there is no guessing as to whether or not you got "shot" I mentioned doing the same thing with a marker or a knife in which you can apply something to the edge of the blade to show the "cut"

MJS

 

[howardr]

MJS said:

Yup, you are missing something. Go back and re-read my last post as well as the posts by TT. You mention that knife attacks are rare. How do you figure this? Just the other day, there was an armed robbery in the city that I work in. The robber held a knife to the managers throat, while he demanded money and his car! Like I said in the post, it is something that not everybody is going to want to do.

As for the gun defneses. Use a water gun. That way there is no guessing as to whether or not you got "shot" I mentioned doing the same thing with a marker or a knife in which you can apply something to the edge of the blade to show the "cut"

MJS

I must confess that this is a little odd. I'm really trying to follow your line of reasoning. Let's see:

1. So, your thought process was that you saw a story on the news or heard one on the radio about someone in your town who was robbed at knife point and ... therefore, knife attacks are common? If that is your thought process you'd be commiting the fallacy of hasty generalization. That is certainly not a significant sample to derive the conclusion you're seek.

Remember, when we talk about knife attacks what we are really talking about, as you yourself as well as several others in this thread have mentioned, is an attack with a knife in which you are going to be killed (in essence), i.e., you cannot run (which you've admitted would be the best thing), you cannot comply, etc. I would argue that if you are a normal person, that is someone not in an inherently dangerous line of work, the chances of you suffering a random attempted murder with a knife are slim to nil. And, if you are so unlucky the highly risky training with a "live" blade probably won't make a difference. As I've heard it said before: if someone really wants to kill you with a knife, you won't know about it until you feel the plunge of the blade in your back (to be a bit morbid).

2. You say both in response to my gun query and more generally that you can just use a squirt gun for realism or a magic marker. But does that not violate your initial premise that people need the "live" weapon to insure realistic responses and training? If that's true then a squirt gun, or a magic marker for that matter won't cut it. In sum, if you argue that a squirt gun or magic marker suffice, which I'd basically agree that they would, then where goes your first argument that training with a live blade is necessary for self-defense?

Howard

 

[MJS]

Howard- If you are thinking that I"m sitting around watching the NEWS waiting to see how many knife attacks there are, you must be nuts!!! Considering I'm in the LE field...Oh boy, I ought to take a good bashing on this one....I think that I have a better idea as to what weapons are used on the street. IE- a domestic, a fight, etc. If you think that people just fight with their hands, you are wrong. Maybe in your world they do.

I have also said, if you go back and re-read my post, that I said that training with a live blade is NOT FOR EVERYBODY! If you want to go to the next step, but still dont want to train with a live blade, then I said, that is when you use the marker. As for the gun, well, I'll give you that one. Train with the water gun. At least you will only get wet and not a bullet in your head.

Let me ask you your opinion. Please share with the room YOUR training that you do and your exp. with weapons. After all, isnt this forum designed so that we can all share knowledge with each other?

MJS

 

[MJS]

One more quick question. Isnt this thread discussing Kenpo on the ground? Why are we talking about weapons then? I think the conversation should be geared to being able to use your Kenpo skills on the ground if that is where you will be. Oopppsss..I forgot...some of us will never go to the ground!

I would love to hear everybody elses exp. with using a Kenpo tech on the ground!!! Isnt the idea of this forum to share knowledge? If you have had some good exp. with doing a tech. on the ground, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about it, so as to maybe add something to our own training!

MJS

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MJS
One more quick question. Isnt this thread discussing Kenpo on the ground? Why are we talking about weapons then?

You say this after how many posts made by YOU in regards to using a real knife in practice?

Originally posted by MJS
I think the conversation should be geared to being able to use your Kenpo skills on the ground if that is where you will be.

Aren't there enough threads about it already? Is it your goal to dilute the kenpo forum into nothing but "going to the ground" discussions? How many times will you and your buddies bring it up?

Originally posted by MJS
Oopppsss..I forgot...some of us will never go to the ground!

Your sarcasm is the perfect representation of your (and a couple other's) attitude about it all. Hey, here's an idea. Go spout that stuff in the MMA forum ... it's highly welcome there. You can go and talk about how pointless striking arts, and forms are, and you'll have a lot of people agreeing with you. That IS what you want afterall, isn't it?

Originally posted by MJS
I would love to hear everybody elses exp. with using a Kenpo tech on the ground!!! Isnt the idea of this forum to share knowledge? If you have had some good exp. with doing a tech. on the ground, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about it, so as to maybe add something to our own training!

MJS

Hasn't the list of names of people to go train with enough? Skip Hancock, Bob White, Larry Tatum .. there it is again for ya, in case you missed it, which would explain a lot. The forum IS about sharing knowledge, not telling everyone else how much the art we study sucks, and how we're all wasting our time with this or that. The idea is to share knowledge of all facets of kenpo, not sharing knowledge of grappling in kenpo. But I doubt you'll even read this, let alone stop another new thread about it. What is it that you want? Is it that you want everyone to say "Damn MJS, you're right and I'm wrong, I wasted time and effort in my studies because we're not working on a specific ground curriculum! You have better insight into what Mr Parker wanted than anybody!" ? Well just let me know, I'll say it, publicly and I'll continue on my merry way, wasting my time. That way I and the other rogues who "just don't know better" can use this site to discuss something other than going to the ground.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kirk
You say this after how many posts made by YOU in regards to using a real knife in practice?



Aren't there enough threads about it already? Is it your goal to dilute the kenpo forum into nothing but "going to the ground" discussions? How many times will you and your buddies bring it up?



Your sarcasm is the perfect representation of your (and a couple other's) attitude about it all. Hey, here's an idea. Go spout that stuff in the MMA forum ... it's highly welcome there. You can go and talk about how pointless striking arts, and forms are, and you'll have a lot of people agreeing with you. That IS what you want afterall, isn't it?



Hasn't the list of names of people to go train with enough? Skip Hancock, Bob White, Larry Tatum .. there it is again for ya, in case you missed it, which would explain a lot. The forum IS about sharing knowledge, not telling everyone else how much the art we study sucks, and how we're all wasting our time with this or that. The idea is to share knowledge of all facets of kenpo, not sharing knowledge of grappling in kenpo. But I doubt you'll even read this, let alone stop another new thread about it. What is it that you want? Is it that you want everyone to say "Damn MJS, you're right and I'm wrong, I wasted time and effort in my studies because we're not working on a specific ground curriculum! You have better insight into what Mr Parker wanted than anybody!" ? Well just let me know, I'll say it, publicly and I'll continue on my merry way, wasting my time. That way I and the other rogues who "just don't know better" can use this site to discuss something other than going to the ground.

WOW!! Why the harsh words?? First off pal, I didnt start this thread, so why dont you go ask them? Never said, for the 100th time, that you have to roll for 30 min, but having the skill to get back to your feet so you can strike is very important. Was I the one who started talking about the knife?

Never said the striking arts were bad. Stop putting words into my mouth!! Just saying that cross training isnt something that should be overlooked!

I think YOU missed it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I know about the other inst out there. Forgive me if I dont have the chance to train with the top dogs like you do. I know their exp...I want to hear about YOUR exp, as well as the other members of the forum! Is that all you have, is to talk about how great your inst is?? It seems like that is all you are doing right now!!! Stop and re read your post!!

AGAIN, dont twist things to make me look like the bad guy.. I never said the striking arts suck...that is just crap that is coming out of your mouth, not mine. We all train differently, so what works for me might not work for you. Does that mean that you should bash me for cross training? NO!

MIKE

 

[MJS]

Kirk--here it is for you tough guy.. TRUE2KENPO....he is the one that started the thread...IN CASE YOU MISSED IT!!!

By the way--the knife talk started on page 8---just in case you missed that one too!!!! AND IT WASNT ME!! GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU TELL ME THAT I MADE A STATEMENT THAT I NEVER DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MIKE

 

[Michael Billings]

Kirk,

Thanks for trying to bring some clarity back, whether it worked or not. I agree with your perception of MJS's intent. MMA may be a better thread to explore this stuff with.

We definitely have gone round, and round, and round, and round, ad nauseum about Kenpo and going to the ground. This weapons redirect is also a common MMA & JKD topic. Hmmm..... More grist for the mill? You will note that given the LACK OF DISCUSSION, I have opted, as have other's not to respond to these threads generally.

There appears to be the 3 camps.

1. Kenpo sucks on the ground ... but I love Kenpo.

2. Kenpo is the only Art, and has everything in it.

3. Kenpo is great, but can benefit from "cross-training" (whatever the hell that is) - I think it is MMA, and the posters should go there who want to actually evolve more skills in this particular milieu.

The Kenpoist can just as easily come over to a MMA thread to explore that avenue of training, as a MMA can come over to the Kenpo forums and espouse their views on training. I am tired of a lot of the threads being redirected to "Kenpo on the ground", even if that is not what the thread is called.

Start a new thread for "Live" weapons training in Kenpo. But the idea of a "live" weapon, or advocating this kind of training when we have 12 or 13 year old kids reading is irresponsible at best. They may admire MJS's stance on some issues, but remember that when you say "it is not for everybody" that this may make it more attractive to them.

I also have trained with most of the top kenpoist in the US at one time or the other. The exception to this is the East Coast guys. There is lots of great talent over there, with some great reputations. I am curious what they think of MJS, his training, his instuctors, and his philosphy on Kenpo? I know what the West Coast higher ranking belts think as we have read some of it here - but wait, I digress. This should be another thread if anyone is interested in starting it, frankly I am not.

I will continue to read this thread, as I do all the Kenpo ones, but I do not intend to continue to participate in this repetitive discussion of whose is bigger ... I mean better. Agree to disagree and lets get back to Kenpo, of course that won't happen since Kenpo is lacking so much according to some, who want to explore this.

Boy, did you catch me on a bad morning.

 

[Kirk]

Touchy touchy. I never said you started the thread or started the knife discussion. But you were more than happy to participate, and then insist on gettin it back on track. You participated quite heavily in it being off track. You care so much about what was said, and what you never said, and putting words in your mouth, but then you go on about how all I do is sing praises to my instructor? Show me where I did that?

When you come across as a know it all, who's going to "share" training info with you?