Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System

[Kenpo Yahoo]

"Man," huh?

Sexist language is just SO passe, and so are male fantasy constructions of history.

Hate to tell y'all, but these, "Man with his atlatl vs. the mighty cave bear," pictures of the archaic past simply aren't corroborated by the archaeological evidence.

And then to extend these illusions to contemporary martial arts...oy.

Way to wag the dog there Robert. Besides not agreeing with the quote, do you have anything useful to add to the conversation?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

It's a knife trainer with marking edges, check it out.

Easy way to tell if your knife techniques work

or you could just make your own. Doesn't look like it would be that hard.

 

[kenpo_cory]

but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework
Lamont

My instructor used to work with him, they both used to write for Full Contact Magazine a long time ago.

 

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

Hey any of you Pick guys out there still working these techs or are you doing something different???[/QUOTE]

Dropped in to read this thread. Interesting. To give you a short answer we are doing these techniques but they are different as is our blade work. Pick teaches a cut to kill on the offensive side. On the defensive side, the short of it is that we follow a strict sequential flow. From 12 Points and fortified engagement we, Divert, Dominate, Destroy. Always attack the attack. Dominate the primary weapon (the man) Destroy the attackers ability to wield the weapon and never let the blade get behind you (out of visual engagement). If you have any specific questions I will do my best to answer them.

Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Thanks for the response, I know that it may not be possible for you to get too specific but would you mind picking a technique and describing maybe one or two of the Major changes made to facilitate effectiveness in execution?

In the AKKI defensive techniques (at least as I understand them at this point in my training) we seem pretty focused on controlling the elbow of the arm holding the weapon, in order to keep the attacker from being able to backcut or change angles on us to effect a stab. Most of our checks become dynamic as we try to destroy our attackers ability to wield the weapon and/or function... period.

Do you guys practice disarms at all? It seems that you concern yourself more with taking out the opponent than you do with disarming the knife. This is interesting since most people view it the other way. I know a few disarms that I would consider realistic. Most of them involve me cutting my opponents weapon weilding hand or stripping their weapon away with my knife, but some of the disarms are empty hand vs. weapon. What seems to be the strategy that you guys use? Personally I would never ever ever try a disarm unless I had no other choice or unless, as I mentioned, I was using my knife to cut or strip away my opponents weapon.

What are your thoughts?

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm a little tired after working out for 3 hours tonite. Thanks again.

 

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

Sorry that I have taken so long to answer John but I just got my computer back on line from having to format the hard drive. What a pain. I told you that I would do my best to answer your questions so here goes:



“Thanks for the response, I know that it may not be possible for you to get too specific but would you mind picking a technique and describing maybe one or two of the Major changes made to facilitate effectiveness in execution?”

The major change/innovation in the way we address any technique is the development of fortified engagement (feet) and 12 points of consideration (hand/arm placement). Fortified engagement brings the mass (body) to its natural anatomical alignment allowing for mass engagement in an omni directional state. 12 points is the specific positioning of the hands in relation to the dimensions of height, width and depth in relation to outer rim domination. (Similar to a boxing hand position) To bring a specific technique into discussion I’ll use Glancing Lance. It is the first technique in Form 6. As I was previously taught the technique (by John Sepulveda), you step back to 6:00 with the right foot and bring your right hand around and down (extended outward chop) on the wrist, capturing the wrist as you simultaneously executing a left palm strike in an attempt to hyperextend and/or break the elbow and control the weapon at the elbow. Right snap kick to the groin, planting with a right 2 finger eye strike while maintaining a positional check at the elbow. Hop/transition to the left foot at 10:00 (one legged stance) as the right hand circles counter clockwise, hooks and parries to again strike outside of opponents right wrist. Executing the technique in this manor gets you cut and you relinquish control of the blade. Your reaction of an extended outward chop is circular in its execution and the blade cuts to the top of the wrist or forearm. The mass of the enemy is also not engaged and he is still able to move in multiple dimensions. Pick teaches- Fortify on the right foot (moves your centerline and aligns your weapon/hand) executing a right thrusting horizontal chop to the backside of the wrist, simultaneously attack the outside of the elbow while stepping in with the left foot to 10;30. As you step in, the left heel strike becomes a riding check as you continue your action to 12 points collapsing and checking his action with a left bracing angle check. Continuing your forward motion, execute a right thrusting ball kick to the left articulating center (left hip joint). While planting the right foot execute a right two finger eye strike. Transition to the one legged stance as you move through the transitional cat stance. (The purpose of the cat is to create rotation and alignment for the next maneuver which is..) While transitioning to the one legged stance execute a right downward hammer fist to the inside of the enemy’s right wrist. Since you have maintained a bracing angle check with your left arm the downward hammer creates a devastatingly effective fulcrum and lever action resulting in an inside outside break on the elbow removing from his grasp. There is no opportunity for the enemy to cut you as a result of your or his action. The blade never gets behind you. You never relinquish control of the arm. You engage his mass immediately by attacking the skeletal structure. In short you attack the attack. “Divert” (first move with the horizontal chop) “Dominate” thrusting ball kick to the skeleton, incidentally the tentacles happen to get in the way as your foot travels to kick the hip joint and get crushed against the side of the thigh) “Destroy” the break to the elbow and continued attack to the kill if necessary.

"In the AKKI defensive techniques (at least as I understand them at this point in my training) we seem pretty focused on controlling the elbow of the arm holding the weapon, in order to keep the attacker from being able to backcut or change angles on us to effect a stab. Most of our checks become dynamic as we try to destroy our attackers ability to wield the weapon and/or function... period. "

Sounds good to me!


Do you guys practice disarms at all? It seems that you concern yourself more with taking out the opponent than you do with disarming the knife. This is interesting since most people view it the other way.

Yes we do practice disarms. But understand that taking out the enemy is the same as disarming and I don’t have to kill him to take him out. An unconscious enemy is, after all, a disarmed enemy.

"I know a few disarms that I would consider realistic. Most of them involve me cutting my opponents weapon weilding hand or stripping their weapon away with my knife, but some of the disarms are empty hand vs. weapon. What seems to be the strategy that you guys use? Personally I would never ever ever try a disarm unless I had no other choice or unless, as I mentioned, I was using my knife to cut or strip away my opponents weapon."

In a blade to blade confrontation if your mind set is one of disarm and his is one of kill you are in for some problems. My intent, if faced with a knife to knife confrontation is not one of defense. The paradigm shift has to take place to the killing mindset. As Mr. Pick so clearly states “Bringing a self defense mind set into a knife to knife encounter fortifies the old adage of bringing a knife to a gun fight” You will lose.


"Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm a little tired after working out for 3 hours tonite. Thanks again."

You make perfect sense. Thank you for the dialogue. I wish you and Mr. Mills continued success in your training. Hopefully we will get to meet some day. I would enjoy getting to see some of the stuff that Mr. Mills is doing and share some of what we are doing. It is always so difficult to write it out.

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[Michael Billings]

Interesting Marcus. I like all of it. In the Professor's defense, in the IDEAL phase of the technique, what he teaches now may be similar to what you describe. But in the last seminar I did with him, July or so '03, he never released the arm, the initial move was with the outside of the right arm (protecting the tendons and arteries), he kicked to the inside of the left groin to more effectively check width, and he retained the arm following the initial parry/break; and continued to control the arm and rebroke the elbow with the second right outward parry. He did contact maintenance and controlled the arm at/above the shoulder, and his interlocking cirlcles following the eye thrust continued to control the arm. I remember this technique specifically, because it was so similar to my 'not so ideal' phase and how I actually taught it (I alter grabs at the shoulder between my strikes, slower, but safer, and not nearly so clean looking).

At a high level, a lot of the Seniors (which I am not) methods of execution start to look the same, especially against weapons. I was glad to see the weapon hand not being relinquished by Mr. Sepulveda. I, of course, always expect Mr. Pick's weapons work to be intense and effective, as you described. His 12 points of consideration, which you previously emailed me, and fortified engagement concepts, naturally support his knife defense and offense. It is obviously time for me to go to another seminar with him next time he is in Texas.

In the meantime, since Mr. Sepulveda does not visit the Boards, I wanted to correct any assumptions newbies may have of the Professor's execution of a weapons technique. It is decidedly effective, and not limited to the IDEAL when executed or taught at a Brown/Black level. In fact, since I am not a direct student of his, I do not know what he teaches now IN THE IDEAL PHASE, but I know what he does in advanced seminars is way cool, effective, and destroys the opponent's weapon arm, as does Mr. Pick. Very interesting. Your perspective on the Professor come from your many more years with him than me. But that means I see he, and the way he executes techniques, seldom enough to really contrast what he does with what I do. This allows me to refine the techniques as I know them. It is different when learning with someone and seeing them all the time, I have been there and know.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

Interesting Marcus. I like all of it. In the Professor's defense, in the IDEAL phase of the technique, what he teaches now may be similar to what you describe. But in the last seminar I did with him, July or so '03, he never released the arm, the initial move was with the outside of the right arm (protecting the tendons and arteries), he kicked to the inside of the left groin to more effectively check width, and he retained the arm following the initial parry/break; and continued to control the arm and rebroke the elbow with the second right outward parry. He did contact maintenance and controlled the arm at/above the shoulder, and his interlocking cirlcles following the eye thrust continued to control the arm. I remember this technique specifically, because it was so similar to my 'not so ideal' phase and how I actually taught it (I alter grabs at the shoulder between my strikes, slower, but safer, and not nearly so clean looking).

At a high level, a lot of the Seniors (which I am not) methods of execution start to look the same, especially against weapons. I was glad to see the weapon hand not being relinquished by Mr. Sepulveda. I, of course, always expect Mr. Pick's weapons work to be intense and effective, as you described. His 12 points of consideration, which you previously emailed me, and fortified engagement concepts, naturally support his knife defense and offense. It is obviously time for me to go to another seminar with him next time he is in Texas.

In the meantime, since Mr. Sepulveda does not visit the Boards, I wanted to correct any assumptions newbies may have of the Professor's execution of a weapons technique. It is decidedly effective, and not limited to the IDEAL when executed or taught at a Brown/Black level. In fact, since I am not a direct student of his, I do not know what he teaches now IN THE IDEAL PHASE, but I know what he does in advanced seminars is way cool, effective, and destroys the opponent's weapon arm, as does Mr. Pick. Very interesting. Your perspective on the Professor come from your many more years with him than me. But that means I see he, and the way he executes techniques, seldom enough to really contrast what he does with what I do. This allows me to refine the techniques as I know them. It is different when learning with someone and seeing them all the time, I have been there and know.

Respectfully,
-Michael

Good reply Michael. To clarify something for the readers of this exchange. The way that I was taught this techneque by John Sepulveda was the way that he was doing it in 1993 which was the way it was written in the manual. It certainly was not meant to shed a bad light on John Sepulveda's understanding or execution. Thank you Michael for showing how it is currently done by him. As far as a attending a seminar with Mr. Pick in Texas, he will be conducting a seminar there (in El Paseo) sometime in October (I believe). I will be attending and would enjoy seeing you if you can make it. It would be nice to exchange some of this material in person rather than in cyber space. I'll keep you updated. If I may, a small spelling correction on my previous post. "incidentally the tentacles happen to get in the way..and are crushed against the thigh" It should read..testicles :btg: :lol:

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[Michael Billings]

Unless of course they have ...

" the tentacles happen to get in the way..and are crushed against the thigh" It should read..testicles

"

Thanks Marcus, I bet you did not know that El Paso is almost 12 hours from Austin? I might be able to finangle something with my new job, since I do travel a bit more.

Have a great Kenpo Day as Clyde would say,
-Michael

 

[Stick Dummy]

From one with minimal knowledge of Kenpo, for which I apologize:

Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??

Just curious to hear what y'all have to say........ :asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

From one with minimal knowledge of Kenpo, for which I apologize:

Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??

Just curious to hear what y'all have to say........ :asian:

Without a doubt.

DarK LorD

 

[jfarnsworth]

Does "Leaping Crane" have any potential as a knife technique??

:whip: :uhyeah: L.C. is one of the most versatile techniques in our system. I have covered between 80 - 90 of our techniques through seminars with Mr. Planas and almost every tech. covered somehow he managed to link "x" technique to L.C.

 

[Mark Weiser]

In my Training with Trevor Haines ( Five Animal Kenpo) one of the best defensive movements aganist Knife attacks is the use of Crane Movements.

From my training as a Sheriff Deputy ( too let you know how dangerous Edged weapons are) they require/teach you. Use of lethal force is allowed at this distance.10 feet plus the length of the edged weapon. This is with Tasers and Firearms.

Knife fighting takes a lot of practice and you will get cut that is a fact. That is why practicing the cuts and blocks with a little bit of pain with those movements allows your mind to accept the cut without going into shock.

I remember watching in the academy a few videos on real fights with edged weapons. One was in a Correctional Center. The man died in 45 seconds the whole fight lasted that long.

The other one was veiwing "Surviving Edged Weapons" for those in Law Enforcement I am sure you viewed this at the Academey.

 

[Bill Lear]

Knife fighting takes a lot of practice and you will get cut that is a fact.

When I'm involved in a situation, especially one involving a knife, I don't go into it just accepting that I'm going to get cut. Accepting that is ludicrus. I was a bouncer for three years at a nightclub not to far from here, and I had to defend myself from a knife attack my very first night on the job. He went to jail and I DIDN'T get cut.

That is why practicing the cuts and blocks with a little bit of pain with those movements allows your mind to accept the cut without going into shock.

Going into shock from a cut isn't caused from pain... If you're cut in a fight, you might not even know it... The adrenal dump from just getting into the altercation might keep you from feeling the pain from a cut or stab for a little while.

Medical Fact: You will go into shock from loosing blood!!!

 

[TIGER DRAGON FIGHT]

i feel the techs that are taught are very effective in our kempo system. we put our students and ourselves(instructors) through real situations with either chalk or the knives that use chalk to mark your opponent. its alot of fun i must say and definately educational. love this stuff :jedi1:

 

[MisterMike]

As for as EPAK, I think there are only 4 knife techniques:

Piercing Lance
Raining Lance
Thrusting Lance
Entwined Lance

That's 4 knife attacks in the whole system. That alone should tell you it is not Kenpo's specialty. I've found most Kenpo schools cross-train with someone in another style before adding any more.

The attacks in those 4 techniques are simplistic and open and I do not feel they represent an experienced knife attacker.

As for empty hand attacks, Kenpo always assumes the attacker knows how to fight. That's why the system is as good as it is. I just don't feel the same for the knife techniques.

I will say that once you gain control of the knife wielding attacker, Kenpo has a lot of options in it. But it's that first part...

My $.02 :asian:

 

[Brian Jones]

Not to nit pick but you forgot Glancing Lance. And remember, its not necessarily the number of techinques as it is the soundness of the concepts and princples behind the technique.

Brian Jones

 

[Goldendragon7]

As for as EPAK, I think there are only 4 knife techniques:
Piercing Lance
Raining Lance
Thrusting Lance
Entwined Lance

Aaaaaaa.......... you forgot Glancing Lance !

That's 4 knife attacks in the whole system. That alone should tell you it is not Kenpo's specialty.

Again, a correct number is 5 not 4, but where does the number of techniques in any given category qualify what any systems specialty is?

The attacks in those 4 techniques are simplistic and open and I do not feel they represent an experienced knife attacker.

Corrected to 5, yes I agree, they are basic examples, drills or ideas to begin with, as in many of the other techniques of our system, designed to be a point of reference to build upon as ones skills and knowledge of the system increases. Did you not learn this .... somehow?

As for empty hand attacks, Kenpo always assumes the attacker knows how to fight.

Sorry to disagree with you again, but you are most certainly misinformed as to what the techniques {ALWAYS} "ASSUMES" (as you say), were designed for by the founder. Anyone that was close to Ed Parker knows that he never used the words always or assumes in regard to what his techniques were designed for, he was much too clever and knowledgeable for that.

I will say that once you gain control of the knife wielding attacker, Kenpo has a lot of options in it.

yes, we in AK refer to this as "variable expansions".

My $.02

ok, I'll agree with you on this.

 

[psi_radar]

Sorry if this was mentioned already (haven't gone through the entire thread), but other Kenpo techniques can easily be adapted to knife defense. Returning the Storm is one of my favorite knife defenses, even though it's based on a club attack.

 

[MisterMike]

... but where does the number of techniques in any given category qualify what any systems specialty is?

Are TKD students qualified grapplers? Probably not. Why would 5 knife techniques make Kenpo a knife art?

While the principles of “Divert, Seize, Control, and Disarm" exist, I'm not satisfied with the attacks taught in those techniques.

Corrected to 5, yes I agree, they are basic examples, drills or ideas to begin with, as in many of the other techniques of our system, designed to be a point of reference to build upon as ones skills and knowledge of the system increases. Did you not learn this .... somehow?

Yes, to begin with, so they are beginner techniques.

Sorry to disagree with you again, but you are most certainly misinformed as to what the techniques {ALWAYS} "ASSUMES" (as you say), were designed for by the founder. Anyone that was close to Ed Parker knows that he never used the words always or assumes in regard to what his techniques were designed for, he was much too clever and knowledgeable for that.

I have to disagree. Kenpo is paraded as an evolving system originally deisnged to handle the advancements of street fighters and other skilled combatants. Not one designed to pick on the inexperienced or the drunk.

I think this is clear in the empty hand techniques, but then you have 5 knife techniqes that are all based on lunges. Not what I would call attacks from an experienced knife fighter. This is not to say the system has not or cannot be adapted, but "by the book" the attacks are not 100% practical. That's my only point in this.