Kenpo... On the Ground

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Actualy I was posting to sigung at the same time you posted and it beat mine. Sorry for the confusion.

T.O.D... I don't worry about intellectualizing a fight to death. I don't really know the eight considerations you speak of... I'm old school Tracys from 1972. Or perhaps I know the eight considerations in some other fashion, but the intellectualization that you speak of becomes highly irrelevent in the heat of the combat. If someone grabs, gropes, hugs, chokes or in some other fashion latches on to you and they do not, at some point, draw back a couple of bloody nubs, then you:

A) have not been taught the Jitsu aspects of Kenpo or American Kenpo - They are there... Trust me... Larry Tatum knows them... He hints at them in some of his tapes. LOL! Go look! Many other instructors of both Tracy's and EPAK, alas, do not know enough to teach them.

Or ...

B) are wanting someone to spoon feed you answers. Thus it is easier to go to other people seeking answers that are usually within you, if you have but the patience, and ability to think and visualize and carry to a logical conclusion. No offense to anyone here, most particularly, Doctor Robert, whom I respect, but Edmund K. Parker did not have a corner on that market Bro. Nor did Bruce Lee. If you are looking for Sub-Level 4 goodies, you will need a qualified instructor, for which I would highly recommend Doctor Chapél or one of his protegé, if they are available.

But ... It is there... I am just disappointed that whomsoever is teaching you, is not teaching, at least, the most facile perspective of grappling defense.

No offense is implied or intended by this post, but as a famous detective said, "When you have eliminated all else, what is left must be the truth".

Dan

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, you know me. I'm just working off all that outdated information. Dominant position is old news I guess. I had a sneeking suspicion my instructor was giving us bad dope.

 

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Well, you know me. I'm just working off all that outdated information. Dominant position is old news I guess. I had a sneeking suspicion my instructor was giving us bad dope.

Bro! I think you are taking offense where none was meant. You're the one that said what he was teaching you wasn't working... Not me... I simply drew inference from the data you provided.

Sorry you took offense.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Sigung86
T.O.D... I don't worry about intellectualizing a fight to death. I don't really know the eight considerations you speak of... I'm old school Tracys from 1972. Or perhaps I know the eight considerations in some other fashion, but the intellectualization that you speak of becomes highly irrelevent in the heat of the combat. If someone grabs, gropes, hugs, chokes or in some other fashion latches on to you and they do not, at some point, draw back a couple of bloody nubs, then you:

A) have not been taught the Jitsu aspects of Kenpo or American Kenpo - They are there... Trust me... Larry Tatum knows them... He hints at them in some of his tapes. LOL! Go look! Many other instructors of both Tracy's and EPAK, alas, do not know enough to teach them.

Or ...

B) are wanting someone to spoon feed you answers. Thus it is easier to go to other people seeking answers that are usually within you, if you have but the patience, and ability to think and visualize and carry to a logical conclusion. No offense to anyone here, most particularly, Doctor Robert, whom I respect, but Edmund K. Parker did not have a corner on that market Bro. Nor did Bruce Lee. If you are looking for Sub-Level 4 goodies, you will need a qualified instructor, for which I would highly recommend Doctor Chapél or one of his protegé, if they are available.

But ... It is there... I am just disappointed that whomsoever is teaching you, is not teaching, at least, the most facile perspective of grappling defense.

No offense is implied or intended by this post, but as a famous detective said, "When you have eliminated all else, what is left must be the truth".

Dan

My exposure to David German was a wake up call for me, it was many years ago in Crete at the Gathering of Masters. I was his UKE for his seminars and can say I've only been hit as hard as that with so little effort by Larry. Not only that, his Chi Na skills are impeccable and he had me doing the Kenpo Puppet Show in no time. His grappling skills are beyond reproach as well and I'm looking forward to training with him again in the very near future. Larry does hint at his skills in this realm on the videos, and goes more indepth at the studio with the Wed. nite classes but we don't base our entire art on that aspect, it is but another portion of curriculum. I've found that rolling on the floor grappling has increased my skills in the standup region. I'm no slouch on the ground, but I'd much rather stand up myself.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Bro! I think you are taking offense where none was meant. You're the one that said what he was teaching you wasn't working... Not me... I simply drew inference from the data you provided.

Sorry you took offense.

Actualy I don't take offense. I used to believe exactly what you are preaching( minus the Larry Tatum part) It is just that we wanted to look outside the box and find out what is out there. Lets just pretend that you ended up on the ground because of what ever reason.(it was dark, you slipped, gravel, Ice, snow, uneven terrain) and you got this big guy on your chest and rather than giving you targets he is on you like a slug on a garbage scow. Why not ask the guys that train for this and only this what the best course of action might be? They are not a bunch of idiots waiting to be enlightened by master such and such of the branch devidian sub section level 7 kenpo or what ever. They work this question and only this question, where as the average Kenpo guy spends less than 10% of his time at best working ground techniques ( and thats being generous) All I'm suggesting is that you attend a seminar some time. Yes its all Kenpo on different dimensions but these guys can show you the ins and outs better than just about any one right now and its all easy to learn. Work with me here my brother.:soapbox:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


Before position, it's worth noting about those considerations of combat, come a) acceptance, b) environmental awareness, and c) range. Why in the hell am I going to stand in closish and square off against some guy? So I can get slammed on my back? Is grappling supposed to be a common mugger's tactic? Yes, absolutely, Tank Abbott's gonna hand me my lunch. Yes, absolutely--and studying BJJ (I still say, do something about that abbreviation) is not going to change that fact for a second.

I might note that I cannot for the life of me figure out what that, "one hit KO," bidness means. It certainly doesn't fit with any kenpo techniques I've ever seen...which are, philosophically, built around always having a backup approach to self-defense.

I agree with Sigung 86, perhaps because I spent a significant portion of last night working the phone-booth-range aspects of Gift of Destiny in Mr. Tatum's Wednesday night class...the previous week, we'd worked some of the chin na aspects of the outset of Short 3, after working through warm-ups that included some mods/grapplings for Dance of Death...or so I thought, since I guess I couldn't actually have been doing this stuff at all, what with the way kenpo doesn't include any of it...musta been the heat...


But anyway, it's at least an interesting argument. [/B]

Robert,
First of all let me say that up here in Spokane falls we don't have any Tatum schools. We got your Sepulvida guys( en-mass ) we got your T-Dragon guys, we got you Mitchel's Kenpo, and then you have us. We've encorporated Krav Maga, Muiy Thai, Kenpo, and of course BJJ (give me an alternative abrev and I may consider using it.) I thought the whole Idea of Kenpo was to be a dynamic and modern art. With that being said the world seems to be honig up on its positional skills. You owe it to your self to take a look at what developments are taking place. I can't event begin to know what kinds of ground work stuff you know so I won't suggest that Mr. Tatum and his guys haven't fully prepared you. The guy that runs our school is really the one introducing most of the cross traing Ideas my instructor is traveling the world teaching original kenpo ideas and I swear there is not a single grappling move that BJJ has that he will not explain in kenpo terms. I'm sure Mr. Tatum sees that world in the same way. With that I'm trying to say that BJJ is a chance to focus on just the positional aspecs of "your" art with out trying to blend skills on all the dimensional stages of action(range).

What coincidence, we also hapen to be working gift of destiny these last few weeks. I would have answered this post earlier but I had to get to class. ( I've skipped to many as a result of this web sight already) I would love to work out with the Tatum guys for a while as I would the Mitchel's and Tracy guys ( which I have in Denver) just to see there vision of the same art but I'm so broke I cant afford to pay attention right now; however, I am still young.
Sean

 

[Sigung86]

Ahhh.... The picture is now much clearer... A young man out to prosyletize. A world changer... :lol:

But I really don't want to take any BJJ Seminars. There are too many weaknesses in that system too. Like I said before, If I go to the ground, I have more than enough to get back up. I guess I just don't understand the need to call myself a Kenpoist but then run willy-nilly to all these various "other" arts tring to fill in your perceived gaps. If your Kenpo is so inefficient then why do you stay with it? Pull a Bruce Lee. Run all over grabbing from here and there, make a number of block buster hit movies, die, have your friends extrapolate a "non-system" system and have your notes published... You too could be immortal.

Interesting to me that you will jump on a band wagon like BJJ, put down your own art that you haven't had obvious sufficiency in, and in the same virtual breath, attempt to put down something you obviously know nothing about in such a derogatory fashion (Uh... That would be Sub Level 4, and not "Branch Davidian Sub Level 7". Sheesh Lad! If you wish to be insulting you could at least get the name right. )

Nah... If you are going to push an agenda, denigrate an art that you obviously don't know the middle of, much less all of, and put down other folks art in the same breath, you need to do it with a little more suave and debonaire than that to convert most of the people to your Bruce Lee vision.

And with that, I leave Robert to carry on. But it has been interesting. We just don't agree with your vision of what is right, just, and an improvement, and I think both of us could better spend our time.

Thanks,

Dan :asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Sigung86
So... You're saying that you can't strike effectively in close? Used to be an old Kenpo axiom... "If you're close enough, there's room enough"... Guess folks aren't teaching that nowadays. We also used to be called the Kings of Phone Booth fighting... Wonder how many can remember phone booths? :rofl:

I remember phone booths! :rofl:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I remember phone booths! :rofl:

Yeah .. superman used to change inside them

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yeah .. superman used to change inside them

But he doesn't do that anymore...he just runs down the street very fast and strips while he is running. He is just a blur anyway so no one can see him take his clothes off. There is no discretion anymore.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

No, I don't, "owe it to myself," to take all these other seminars. In the first place, I never went into kenpo to become a fighter in the sense TOD appears to have in mind. In the second, if they're all that easy, what good can they possibly be? And in the third--I know folks won't buy this, but once again--every damn time anybody gets pinned down on concepts and principles, they're, "in," kenpo already. I've seen them; I've worked them; I've been taught them in one form or another. And before anybody revs up, am I arguing that I'm all set to take on, say, the patriarch Helio Gracie? Of course not.

I've simply no intention of spending all my time shopping. Among other things, this detracts from the real and traditional purpose of martial arts--making it easier to sit on the front porch and sip a beverage, reading and admiring the trees...

The one point that I thought was great was the one that resembles something often said about boxing: the boxer's big advantage is that they are deeply, viscerally used to getting hit...in fact, they expect to get hit. But I have to add, that I spend a fair amount of time getting knocked on my proverbial at the studio...and I do know what it's like. Again, does this mean I'm all set for Bart Vale? Of course not, and neither are you. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

I find it interesting that all this Spokane kenpo, "incorporates," all these other styles, including, "Krav Maga." I shall avoid writing anything more, given the patronizing remarks about where I presently train.

But I wonder about marketing the martial arts...

I'm with Sigung; in this case, I'm out.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
No, I don't, "owe it to myself," to take all these other seminars. In the first place, I never went into kenpo to become a fighter in the sense TOD appears to have in mind. In the second, if they're all that easy, what good can they possibly be? ...

I find it interesting that all this Spokane kenpo, "incorporates," all these other styles, including, "Krav Maga." I shall avoid writing anything more, given the patronizing remarks about where I presently train.

But I wonder about marketing the martial arts...

I'm with Sigung; in this case, I'm out.

Robert first of all I was making light of all these sales pitches of the Tatum or Tracy systems because I don't feel it added any thing to the discussion. I did not mean to offend you but I have a gift. Second I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about the art. As far as Sigung 80 goes assuming that cross training represents a lack of kenpo skills sounds pretty close minded to me but what do I know? I'll keep an eye out for the phone booth muggers though. My instructors and myself make no money from the sale of any BJJ information. I was just trying to point you to take a look. Ignore it if you like; as long as you never have to fight those guys I guess it will never matter. Lastly I said it was easy to learn not easy to use that is up to the practitioner, his abilities, and his attitude... good or bad.
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Gentlemen: It seems we are rehashing this topic and are frustrated that we cannot change each other's fundamental beliefs about right and wrong (in terms of ground fighting).

Let me offer this token of moderation before my evil personality takes over and starts flaming through the keyboard:

Kenpo is one of the most excellent martial arts systems ever devised. Kenpo theory and analysis is without equal in the martial arts world. Kenpo is perhaps the most comprehensive self-defense systems ever devised.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is also one of the most excellent martial arts systems ever devised. BJJ theory and training methodology is without equal in the martial arts world. BJJ is perhaps the most ring-proven systems ever devised.

Let us spend our time constructively pursuing our training. If we ever have the chance to meet in person, let's make sure to spend time sharing techniques and perspectives and enriching each others study.

That's all the sweetness I can deliver today. My evil personality is about to take over and I must find another forum to troll...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, not getting into this one any longer.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Ahhh.... The picture is now much clearer... A young man out to prosyletize. A world changer... :lol:

But I really don't want to take any BJJ Seminars. There are too many weaknesses in that system too. Like I said before, If I go to the ground, I have more than enough to get back up. I guess I just don't understand the need to call myself a Kenpoist but then run willy-nilly to all these various "other" arts tring to fill in your perceived gaps. If your Kenpo is so inefficient then why do you stay with it? Pull a Bruce Lee. Run all over grabbing from here and there, make a number of block buster hit movies, die, have your friends extrapolate a "non-system" system and have your notes published... You too could be immortal.

Interesting to me that you will jump on a band wagon like BJJ, put down your own art that you haven't had obvious sufficiency in, and in the same virtual breath, attempt to put down something you obviously know nothing about in such a derogatory fashion (Uh... That would be Sub Level 4, and not "Branch Davidian Sub Level 7". Sheesh Lad! If you wish to be insulting you could at least get the name right. )

Nah... If you are going to push an agenda, denigrate an art that you obviously don't know the middle of, much less all of, and put down other folks art in the same breath, you need to do it with a little more suave and debonaire than that to convert most of the people to your Bruce Lee vision.

And with that, I leave Robert to carry on. But it has been interesting. We just don't agree with your vision of what is right, just, and an improvement, and I think both of us could better spend our time.

Thanks,

Dan :asian:

I've been training in Kenpo for 17 yrs, and from what I've seen, it has no ground work at all. True, BJJ is not the ultimate art, but it does and continues to prove itself on the ground. I've also trained in BJJ for about 10 yrs. I've had some sparring matches in my school where we incorporate grappling. I've had no problem taking any of the other students down and be able to dominate them on the ground.

Its important, in order to be a complete fighter, to be able to fight in all of the ranges of combat. Like I said, after 17 yrs, I have seen more than my share of weakness in Kenpo.

Mike

 

[Kalicombat]

In my opinion, ground work is only one facet of preperation for a well rounded fighter. I think that it has become blown way out of proportion as far as imiportance however, and having been in quite a few altercations in my life time, very few have ended up "going to the ground". Most of my fights have taken place in bars, alleys, and parking lots of those bars, both as a drunken idiot, and a bouncer, and if it would have gone to the ground, either my opponent or myself would have gotten our heads stomped by either group of friends. Most fights DO NOT END UP in a wrestling match. Go to the ground in a parking lot and you'll be pulling broken beer bottles out of your back, knees, elbows, etc... Most criminals out there, choosing a mark are not going over arm bars in their heads prior to assaulting some one. They are in and out, taking your wallet, bag, car keys, etc..., and the likely hood of them lying in wait to mount someone and perform a key lock or a triangle chock is NILL.
If you are interested in Mixed Martial Art events, then by all means, roll, roll, and roll some more, but if, like me, your main concern for training in kenpo is to do the most damage in the least amount of time, to the nastiest perpetrator out there, ground work should be of minimal concern. There are so many more areas that should take precedenceover groundfighting ie; adrenaline repsonse, conflict avoidance, mental preperation for causing bodily harm to another human, dealing with pain, weapon improvising, environmental awareness, the list goes on and on.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

MJS: You have seen the light. Welcome my brother.

Kalicombat: you are right on--nobody wants to fight on the ground, much better to win standing up. But, if I get knocked down with someone on top, I really do need to know how to defend myself.

 

[MJS]

Kalicombat- Many good points. Of course, if you find yourself against mult. opps. you will not want to go to the gorund, and it always seems like the is the first thing that every says about grappling. But, the majority of karate students practice in a gi, which is very loose fitting, in bare feet, and on a carpet, wood floor or mat. How many people go outside, train in street clothes? Probably not many. So those fancy high kicks are worthless in jeans, and you might loose footing on the pavement. The idea of going to the ground is not for the bad guy, but the guy defending himself. If you stumble, and end up on the ground, if it means saving my life, I'd roll around on the pavement.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...what fancy high kicks in kenpo would these be, exactly?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
If you are interested in Mixed Martial Art events, then by all means, roll, roll, and roll some more, but if, like me, your main concern for training in kenpo is to do the most damage in the least amount of time, to the nastiest perpetrator out there, ground work should be of minimal concern. There are so many more areas that should take precedenceover groundfighting ie; adrenaline repsonse, conflict avoidance, mental preperation for causing bodily harm to another human, dealing with pain, weapon improvising, environmental awareness, the list goes on and on.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]

Interesting how the list goes on of things that are more important than the third combat consideration. Conflict avoidance would definantly be a must for the martial artist that refuses to accept the possibility of going to the ground. The Kenpo I take is not about total anihilation or maximum damage inflicted its about ending the fight as quickly as possible with the minimum of force required. So You are on the ground and you got some guy chocking you out with your own arm. Your priorities stated that it was more important to be able to emtionaly handle the pain you want to inflict on him than learning the simple escape; I hope you are kidding. Oh let me guess, If its not complex its not worth learning. I learned that little jewel a few posts ago.