Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I've had the chance to work with a few FMA guys in the past and they seem to have a far greater understanding of the knife defenses than we do. They have their fair share of crap just like any system, but they also have alot of good material too. The Sayocs seem to be the big names in FMA Blade work right now. They explore a concept that they refer to as "bad hand." It's one of those concepts that after they explain it, you kinda go,"well duh.... why didn't I think of that?" It was something that made me change the way I look at knife defenses completely. Well, that and having Mr. Mills and Mr. Wheaton rip me to pieces during a knife seminar (luckily for me it was a foam trainer). However, had it been real I would have been mince meet, because I was unable to control the blade hand, which is hard to do if you can't get to the elbow.

 

[MJS]

I have to agree with KY on that post regarding Sayoc. I have no experience in that art, but I do know that the majority of focus is on the blade. Then again, many of the FMA deal with the blade seeing as how that is the weapon of choice in that country.

Mike

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

We were working through some knife material last night, which just seems to reaffirm my thoughts on this subject. We played around with the idea of backcutting. The guy with the knife tried to cut/stab you, or bait you then cut you, or both. As a defender you tried not to get cut as much as possible. Guess what? The guy with the knife was able to cut the defender 80-90% of the time. This wasn't performing a technique or defending against multiple slashes, but defending against a single out and back stroke of the arm. After having done this, again, I stand by my prior statements that the EPAK knife techniques don't stand much of a chance, if any, against someone with even a little knowledge of how to use the blade. Unfortunately you won't know how much they actually know until they've made their cuts, by that point you're S.O.L.

 

[Goldendragon7]

We were working through some knife material last night, which just seems to reaffirm my thoughts on this subject. We played around with the idea of backcutting. The guy with the knife tried to cut/stab you, or bait you then cut you, or both. As a defender you tried not to get cut as much as possible. Guess what? The guy with the knife was able to cut the defender 80-90% of the time. This wasn't performing a technique or defending against multiple slashes, but defending against a single out and back stroke of the arm. After having done this, again, I stand by my prior statements that the EPAK knife techniques don't stand much of a chance, if any, against someone with even a little knowledge of how to use the blade. Unfortunately you won't know how much they actually know until they've made their cuts, by that point you're S.O.L.

Oh gosh...... hee hee... well of course you are right. Those techniques were never intended for use against anything other than simple thrusts etc., to educate you initially to the subject of knives. Bashing the techniques for what they were never intended is not useful.

You now realize that and must advance to more logical maneuvers or evasions. Did you ever hear about his book that talks about environmental objects that can be used to help defend yourself... such as taking a shoe and putting it on your hand to be used against a knife? Sounds like a hint to me..... I don't think even he would be using any intricate hand maneuvers with a shoe on.... at least not initially.. a good bit to explore against a slightly skilled or higher knife wielding individual. I wouldn't want to depend on Thrusting Lance against a back-cut or slash... but then again, I know better than to try.

:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Cool, I get the whole,"you gotta start somewhere bit" but where exactly are you supposed to go after these techniques? I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be. Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike. If the attacker was baiting us to set up a backcut, we just gave him our back.

You bring up an excellent point about environmental weapons, if I can I'll be pulling my knife or looking for a bottle or stick of sorts (heck if I'm carrying and I have enough time I'll draw the G26), but I don't see how loosing a possible means of control (i.e. a hand that can grab) will better the situation. At least with a club or blade I can still trap if the opportunity presents itself. Besides, if I had enough time to unlace my boots and put them on my hands I definately would have had enough time to haul @$$ out of the situation.

What are some of the advanced applications or tools that will make these techniques work against a moderately skilled opponent (i.e. someone who is trying to slice you with the knife instead of poking you with it, or even working against a backcut)??? Was this a subject to be further considered in "To Speak with a Knife." I heard that when Mr. Parker was working up material for this book he decided not to write the books because it was too gruesome.

Hey any of you Pick guys out there still working these techs or are you doing something different???

 

[Goldendragon7]

Cool, I get the whole,"you gotta start somewhere bit" but where exactly are you supposed to go after these techniques?

You go where you never have gone before........ (sounds like a TV series doesn't it.. lol) The techniques (all techniques) are only ideas or vehicles to develop many avenues. One initially is coordination, then some general knowledge on how to use this new found coordination, then add a dash of logic and expansion to journey into the realm of possibilities.... i.e., slashing, back-cut or any other possibilities. Just as in life.... after so much education (high school or preferably college) one must use what they have learned (get a job in your chosen field) and put what they have studied to a functional use. We should not stay in school forever, and just examine techniques just of the fun of it.... (multiple majors) without some goal of use. In short, use the old noggin to develop what you now realize is needed after the basic education.

"Progress is possible providing that Knowledgeis transferred, Assuming that Motivation is present and Innovation takes place".

I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be. Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike. If the attacker was baiting us to set up a back-cut, we just gave him our back.

Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer.

You bring up an excellent point about environmental weapons, if I can I'll be pulling my knife or looking for a bottle or stick of sorts (heck if I'm carrying and I have enough time I'll draw the G26), but I don't see how loosing a possible means of control (i.e. a hand that can grab) will better the situation. At least with a club or blade I can still trap if the opportunity presents itself. Besides, if I had enough time to unlace my boots and put them on my hands I definitely would have had enough time to haul @$$ out of the situation.

Just possible points to examine and determine if any could "ever" be used to help yourself out, this "Process" not only shows you what you COULD do but possibly part of the education is what NOT to do.

What are some of the advanced applications or tools that will make these techniques work against a moderately skilled opponent (i.e. someone who is trying to slice you with the knife instead of poking you with it, or even working against a back-cut)???

Ahhhh a journey for you yet to travel.....

I heard that when Mr. Parker was working up material for his book, "To Speak with a Knife."he decided not to finish writing the book, because it was too gruesome with what one could do with a knife.

Yes, as the title implies .... "Speak" with a Knife refers to YOUR usage of the Knife. The flip side of the book would have been.... the better you know how to USE a knife... the better you can understand how to defend against one.

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

If the attacker was baiting us to set up a backcut, we just gave him our back.

Kenpo Yahoo,

Could you give us your definition of "backcut?" In knifework there is another definition that is used that refers to a a twisting thrust, usually with regard to the bowie knife. Your backcut sounds like a cut done while returning the blade along its original path of motion.

At the AKKI House of Pain camp last year Mr. Mills demonstrated and mentioned a backcut that was similar to the bowie backcut. Is this what you are doing?

I'm just trying to clarify what you are referring to.

Thanks,

Lamont

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Blindside,

Sorry for any confusion. I tend to use the term backcut in a generic manner. What I am actually referring to is a bait and cut. When the attacker reaches out to block, pop, parry, or grab, you simply twist your arm so that the edge is facing the target (assuming your blade isn't double edged) and teardrop back to where you started. Just like when you are working trapping drills you don't want to get so caught up in working the traps that you don't try to make the first punch or chop ( which when translated to knife becomes a thrust or a slash).

I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is? If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Blindside,

Sorry for any confusion. I tend to use the term backcut in a generic manner. What I am actually referring to is a bait and cut. When the attacker reaches out to block, pop, parry, or grab, you simply twist your arm so that the edge is facing the target (assuming your blade isn't double edged) and teardrop back to where you started. Just like when you are working trapping drills you don't want to get so caught up in working the traps that you don't try to make the first punch or chop ( which when translated to knife becomes a thrust or a slash).

I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is? If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:

RETURNING MOTION as vs. REVERSE MOTION with a blade. I think the backcut Blindside references may be the (for a right hander) the cut from 9:00 to 3:00 following an inward cut/slice/snap cut. Realizing that this motion is so much totally smaller generally than a similar action with a club, which requires more distance to generate speed and thus power.

I could be wrong. Good blade work is usually very subtle and coming out of motions, that typically, are continuous. There are some exceptions when you shift to Serrak and the "hidden" blade and you are using the forearm guard (buckler) to shield the blade hand.

Never mind ... it is late and I begin to meander.

-Michael

 

[kenpo_cory]

Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer.

So once you have learned what not to do, shouldn’t you change what you practice? I mean if you know there's something there that you shouldn’t be doing why practice that "wrong thing" over and over until it's ingrained? I would think it would be harder to go back and undo that wrong thing than it would be to just practice the "right way" to start with.

 

[Goldendragon7]

So once you have learned what not to do, shouldn’t you change what you practice? I mean if you know there's something there that you shouldn’t be doing why practice that "wrong thing" over and over until it's ingrained? I would think it would be harder to go back and undo that wrong thing than it would be to just practice the "right way" to start with.

I personally, haven't found anything in "MY" EPAK Kenpo curriculum that pertains to what you just said yet. If I did then yes, I would probably look at alternatives. :uhyeah: :asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

RETURNING MOTION as vs. REVERSE MOTION with a blade. I think the backcut Blindside references may be the (for a right hander) the cut from 9:00 to 3:00 following an inward cut/slice/snap cut. Realizing that this motion is so much totally smaller generally than a similar action with a club, which requires more distance to generate speed and thus power.

We use both. However, I'm willing to bet that we use Returning motion a whole lot more than Reverse motion. This is mostly because double-edged knives are illegal otherwise we could just reverse our motion and cut with the backside or depending on your blade you can tear with the tip. By rotating our arms so that we can achieve a good angle between the arm and the edge of the blade, by doing this we tend to orbit or tear drop our cuts (i.e. Returning Motion). So when the defender reaches out to block our thrust or slash, we cut the target they give us (hand, forearm, etc). If they don't try to block the thrust or slash then we were still able to cut or stab them, so for us it's a win-win situation.

I could be wrong. Good blade work is usually very subtle and coming out of motions, that typically, are continuous. There are some exceptions when you shift to Serrak and the "hidden" blade and you are using the forearm guard (buckler) to shield the blade hand.

Never mind ... it is late and I begin to meander.

-Michae

I completely agree, the guys I've seen that really know how to move the knife all seem to be very fluid and subtle. Afterall how much power do you really need? Let your blade do all the work.

I know this thread started off as a knife defense thread, but since most everyone I know carries a clip knife, I thought it might be cool to talk about ways in which we as kenpo practitioners can use the knife. Whether it is a means of de-escalation, concealment, trapping, etc.? Do any of you guys/gals out there practice a specific knife curriculum or do you adapt open hand techniques? What are some of your favorite techniques to use with a knife?

 

[kenpo_cory]

I personally, haven't found anything in "MY" EPAK Kenpo curriculum that pertains to what you just said yet. If I did then yes, I would probably look at alternatives. :uhyeah: :asian:

I was referring to the comments made about piercing lance.

kenpo yahoo stated. "I'm not sure what the more advanced level of Piercing Lance might be. Heck in the basic level we turn our back to the attacker before we even execute a major strike. If the attacker was baiting us to set up a back-cut, we just gave him our back."

Then you replied with. "Then great, we have learned something, what not to do or to examine what we can do better and safer."

So did you change the original piercing lance then?

 

[Blindside]

I wish I could tell you we are or aren't doing the same thing, but I don't know what a bowie backcut is? If you don't mind explaining..... :asian:

Explain a bowie backcut, ok easier said than done.

The bowie is a big knife with a pronounced curve as the blade nears the tip, you are primarily cutting with that curved portion of the edge when you do this thrust.

OK, the backcut:

You are standing right foot forward, blade held in front of you, right hand, in saber grip.

Now thrust straight forward, as you reach about half of your arm extension begin rotating the blade counter-clockwise. As you reach your full extension your pinkie and elbow should be “up” (vertical 12:00) and the tip of your knife angled down.

This thrust generates tremendous force, and as a result cutting potential. This cut is often used as a counter to a thrust coming in, so you rotate your body offline of the opponents thrust and stop-cut the arm or take the opponents head.

I hope that helps to explain what many people refer to as the backcut, at least by many members of the knife users community.

Lamont

PS: Kenpo Yahoo, since it looks like you are an AKKI guy, Mr. Mills used a reference from Form 1 for this cut. In the section that is like Star Block Set, when you the do elbow block, and then transition into the smother block, is the torquing action for this cut. If you do this action with a knife in your hand and instead of smothering palm down, you thrust down, you have a very short range backcut. Clear as mud, right? :uhyeah:

 

[Goldendragon7]

So did you change the original piercing lance then?

Nope. I teach it as it was initially intended [like I do for the entire curriculum] for the "ideal" phase, then move into the "what if" phase for further exploration of variables, which then leads to being able to "formulate" extemporaneously. :uhyeah:

:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Lamont,

Thanks for the description, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it had a specific name. What type of knife material do you work with?

Goldendragon
Nope. I teach it as it was initially intended [like I do for the entire curriculum] for the "ideal" phase, then move into the "what if" phase for further exploration of variables, which then leads to being able to "formulate" extemporaneously.

So in the what if and formulation phases are you still turning your back to the opponent?

 

[Blindside]

Thanks for the description, I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. I didn't know it had a specific name. What type of knife material do you work with?

Primarily FMA, originally based on serrada escrima and inosanto blend kali, but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework, but still mostly FMA based. What I like most about the FMA knife and stickwork is that it doesn't assume your opponent is an idiot when it comes to wielding their weapon.

Lamont

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Primarily FMA, originally based on serrada escrima and inosanto blend kali, but more recently through James Keatings spin on knifework

I don't believe I've ever heard of this individual. Is there any reference material on the web somewhere?

What I like most about the FMA knife and stickwork is that it doesn't assume your opponent is an idiot when it comes to wielding their weapon.
Lamont

What a revolutionary concept.. :boing2:

 

[Blindside]

I don't believe I've ever heard of this individual. Is there any reference material on the web somewhere?

he has his own website at: www.jamesakeating.com

but a better biography and two articles can be found here:

http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jkeating.html

If you ever get the chance to train with him, you should take it, he has incredible skills and more importantly he is an excellent teacher.

Lamont

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Man," huh?

Sexist language is just SO passe, and so are male fantasy constructions of history.

Hate to tell y'all, but these, "Man with his atlatl vs. the mighty cave bear," pictures of the archaic past simply aren't corroborated by the archaeological evidence.

And then to extend these illusions to contemporary martial arts...oy.