Kenpo... On the Ground

[Bob Hubbard]

Couple of suggestions:

A long time ago we were doing technique breakdowns and comparisions. I believe it was Kirk who also was posting walkthrus and stiring the discussion on variations from school to school, etc.

We are looking for leading Kenpoists to interview, why not invite them to pop in and get involved?

The keys here I think is the friendly part, and when politics and ego mix, it can get ugly. At least 2 leaders have said they avoid all forums for just that reason. I'd like this to be the exception.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kirk: I agree. The grappling debate has been going on a long time. I try and stay off the Kenpo Technical forum to let others talk about Kenpo techniques there. I do think that there is validity to discussing fighting strategy and training strategy on the general Kenpo forum. It just seems like the same people (myself included) are into rehashing.

Good point OFK. I do think that we all need to chill a little and start having some good conversations!! We all need to put our egos aside and learn to converse rather than fight. However, we all tend, myself included, to get defensive about something we like. We just need to keep ourselves in check and not let it get the best of us!

MJS

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Mike, Robert: We all have different experiences, objectives, and opinions here. You've both said some strong stuff and both made some good (and occassionaly not so good) points. I hope that we can continue friendly discussion and that if you two should ever meet that you don't fall to the ground and start biting each other. Seriously though, I've enjoyed talking/listening with both of you and I hope neither of you go away.

OFK--Thanks! I've enjoyed chatting with you also. Don't worry, I won't be leaving any time soon!

MJS

 

[ATACX GYM]

 

[Inkspill]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.

 

[MJS]

WOW!! This thread was dug back up. This is an oldie, thats for sure. LOL.

Anyways, I dont think its that people want to go to the ground, I think that its that some people feel that they'll never end up there. Amazing how many mind readers are out there. LOL. I mean, we're that good of a martial artist, that we'll know that we'll never make a mistake, we'll never trip, stumble, and so on?

As its been said many times already, and speaking for myself, I've never suggested that people stop Kenpo and take up Judo or BJJ, but instead to simply look at those arts, and get enough of a solid understand that in the event you do end up there, that you wont be a fish out of water. I've yet to see, with the exception of a few clips, any solid Kenpo on the ground. There are a few Kenpo grappling clips that've been posted. Some are good, some are great and some not so great.

 

[Inkspill]

sorry if I rezzed this. I thought I saw a new reply and just went in with my view.

I didn't read the whole thread lol, but figured I would post my thoughts. the direction of my post was more toward what I hear generally when the topic comes up, not necessarily what was on here lol : ) so my bad on that haha : )

I think it's good to check out what other arts focus on, how they handle various situations, and for inspiration on what others have already done the road work on.

I'm not sure how "Kenpo specific" my ground work would look, having wrestled for some time back in the day and having a bit of exposure to BJJ. generally lots of claws, eye gouges, pinchers, bites, my goal is to get away, escape safely. I guess my point was more addressing when I've seen some martial artists talk about "self defense", end up on the ground, or execute a takedown, then jump into some extensive guard passing and then hyperextend limbs or work a choke while on the ground. I would want to spend the least amount of time as possible on the ground, get up and get away basically. I see your point though, if I hadn't wrestled my perspective would be different, or at least my skill set.

 

[MJS]

sorry if I rezzed this. I thought I saw a new reply and just went in with my view.

No problem. I had actually forgotten about this thread, and thought I was seeing things when I saw it again.

I didn't read the whole thread lol, but figured I would post my thoughts. the direction of my post was more toward what I hear generally when the topic comes up, not necessarily what was on here lol : ) so my bad on that haha : )

I think it's good to check out what other arts focus on, how they handle various situations, and for inspiration on what others have already done the road work on.

I'm not sure how "Kenpo specific" my ground work would look, having wrestled for some time back in the day and having a bit of exposure to BJJ. generally lots of claws, eye gouges, pinchers, bites, my goal is to get away, escape safely. I guess my point was more addressing when I've seen some martial artists talk about "self defense", end up on the ground, or execute a takedown, then jump into some extensive guard passing and then hyperextend limbs or work a choke while on the ground. I would want to spend the least amount of time as possible on the ground, get up and get away basically. I see your point though, if I hadn't wrestled my perspective would be different, or at least my skill set.

Just to clarify *my* views on the ground. My apologies if I wasnt clear. I'm certainly not suggesting that we turn the ground into a 30min UFC Gracie hug-fest. My goal when learning the ground game, is simply the basics. Nothing fancy, not interested in learning 50 ways to pass guard. My goal is find a handful of escapes, counters, locks, chokes, etc., drill the hell out of them, repeatedly, and go with that. Of course, the goal is to get back up....I'm the first one to say that. Just learn enough to survive, until you can get up. I'm not interested in looking for a submission, but, if an arm presents itself, sure, I'd take it and hopefully go for a break, and get the hell back to my feet. LOL.

Of course, while drilling a specific escape, say from the guard, yes, I'm looking for ways to fit my Kenpo in. All the nasty things, ie: the bites, pinches, gouges, and so on. But, in addition to those, I want to have a plan b, in the event the 'nasty' stuff isnt working or I'm not able to apply it to its fullest.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.

All props due to MJS and guys and gals like him who had the common sense to point out the need for and mandatory utility with the use of grappling in any comprehensively skilled martial artist's grab bag of skills and techniques.I mean,I read the comments on this thread and marvel at some of the ignorance dispalyed by some posters.I understand PREFERENCE.Hell,some people don't wanna learn judo bjj aikido or whatever no matter what.Cool.But do you REALLY think that you'll pull off Captured Twigs vs someone who knows what he's doing or who has a decided physical advantage on you (especially coupled with the psyhological advantage of surprise) and you DON'T practice grappling in that scenario against a fully resisting opponent? If you do...you're opinion is disproven by literally the entire history of combat in martial arts.Just too many of us didn't know it.I didn't know it for 3/4 of my time studying martial arts.The difference is? The FIRST TIMEI was exposed to the power of grappling,I jumped right on it with the full intention to integrate it into my arsenal via effective training. I study judo wrestling bjj aikido hapkido Ungala ground fighting and more...and I'm STILL a kenpoist.


I can't tell you how much I agree with you,Inskpill and MJS.I mean...does anybody THIS CENTURY actually TRULY think that you WON'T grapple and/or hit the ground in a real knockdown dragout scrap? Even if it's due to a STRIKE,SOMEbody WILL hit the ground in that sort of high risk situation. Grappling occurs standing up EVEN MORE than it does on the ground,we were just too blinded in the USA for too long of a time to see it and recognize it.The sneak attack from the back when a mugger flashes his knife or gun on you,or when a rapist or grabs a lady and drags her into a alley to rob and rape her.What aboutthe abusive spouse or bf or gf striking suddenly from close range? For Chrissakes there are MANY examples of grapplng in Kenpo like CAPTURED TWIGS from the lowest belt ranks to the highest.Serial killers like the horrid creature's work that the NYPD is only just uncovering today attack in the grappling range.Whenever you're Within Arm's Reach likeThe sad truth is that too many people prior to the Gracie Revolution thought so...and I was among them.Yep,I cop to it.Guess what? The Gracies weren't the only the first or even the best advocates of grappling in the U.S.A. (Catchwrestlers and judoka,Olympic wrestlers and NCAA wrestlers,hapkido,aikido,Ernie Boggs' excellent but overlooked sport jiujitsu,Pankration,favela Capoeira Ungala groundfighting,dumog...hell,Bruce Lee's opening scene of Enter The Dragon with Sammo Hung...you get the picture) but what the Gracies,their Gracies In Action,and the first installments of the UFC did was reintroduce the idea of grappling and ground grappling to us in a way that forces us to realize that grappling happens all the time,we were just being too thickheaded to admit it. Boxers clinch and tie up.Karate guy and kungfu guys do the same (Kenpo's checks,kenpo's,isshin-ryu's,shotokan's,kyukushin's,goju's,capoeira's,Muay Boran's,etc's strikes footsweeps and throws and stomps and strikes to downed opponents,gungfu's midrange strikes and wing chun like blocks and pulls,not to mention the practice of using stances to unbalance opponents,you get the point).

So training in the grappling range makes you proficient in grappling but doesn't mean you're abandoning Kenpo.In fact,Kenpo has a decent amount of standup grappling,so learn it.And learn the other stuff that gives you more tools to defeat your opponents faster and more efficiently with your Kenpo...and it's STILL Kenpo.Don't forget our roots go back to kenpoJUJUTSU. Aight then.Peace.

 

[K831]

Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different!

Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

 

[Carol]

I disagree. I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

Not every encounter will merit a toss-em-on-the-ground-and-smash-em-to-a-bloody-pulp response.

 

[Inkspill]

my weapons are all natural. ; )

Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different!

Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

 

[ATACX GYM]

I disagree.I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

Not every encounter will merit a toss-em-on-the-ground-and-smash-em-to-a-bloody-pulp response.

Not sure what you disagree with but I agree with your post from here

I think grappling can be one of the most important skills one can have in self-defense.

on to the end of your post.Yaaay Carol!

And I completely agree with K831's distinction between ground fighting and ground grappling and the need to be aware of,deploy and thwart weapons while groundfighting.

 

[kenpojitsu13]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.

I train a number of corrections officers Sheriffs and L.E.O.s who've expressed almost the exact same sentiment to me.Street cops want to end the altercation quickly too in order to minimize the possibility of a situation escalating into a riot or giving time to a bad guy's homeboyz to gather and retaliate on his behalf. I also worked high risk security for years and found myself neck deep in riots and sudden unsolicited shooting sprees,one of which happened at a medical marijuana center in L.A.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swpRPoq05Q&feature=related

Attacking Mace while ground grappling and groundfighting

Kenpojitsu,I have lots of techniques like this and DVDs full of this stuff mating kenpo,judo,wrestling,bjj,catchwrestling,kali,CQB and all from SD positions and scenarios that you will find useful.I'm in the midst of putting together a no BS DVD specifically aimed at security professionals that offer techniques,solo and partner drills,exercises and more for their environs.The techniques are liability sensitive and have the protection of the peace officer as paramount...but they're VERY effective.Conflicts will be over with in 1-5 seconds. In the interim,if you wish (and the invite goes to all on MartialTalk.com)...please subscribe to my Youtube Channel.The link for it is in my sig.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Being on the ground is just another adjustment, it surprises me how big of a deal some people make it and that they want to go to the ground.

You are not the only one looking at this thread ten years after the first UFCs and Muay Thai made it clear to USA martial artists that you BETTER know your stuff in the clinch and on the ground and just giving posters the great big "foolish mortal" smh look.

 

[Inkspill]

I don't know what 'smh' stands for.

I agree that we need to be competent in any grappling situation. I was more addressing the attitude I've seen expressed by some when they say, ok, no finish this technique by dropping down into an armbar, etc. I've heard it expressed at an old school I used to go to, and by some other martial artists from various disciplines.

I don't think it's such a huge deal to use Kenpo on the ground or standing, I've heard some treat it like OMG, I've never thought of that before! that sort of stuff when they see somebody apply leverage on the ground that the person previously only used standing up. it's still fighting, wherever it happens to be. anyway.

 

[MJS]

Just to clarify some "semantics"... In terms of self defense, I don't think anyone needs to learn to grapple, I think they need to learn to ground fight.

Lets keep in mind, they are different!

True, but IMO, I think it'd help if people had a basic understanding of grappling.

Also fellas, by way of encouragement.... lets not just work in our "dirty" striking on the ground, lets position and move to draw our weapons, i.e. any edged weapon or firearm we may carry!

Good points, no pun intended. If your life is on the line, and you have the chance to pull out a weapon, I say go for it.

 

[James Kovacich]

I started my training in jujitsu several years ago. The reason I started is because I work in a prison. I needed to learn to protect myself. I enjoyed the ground work that jujitsu gave and in a one-to-one environment this works well. The problem I had which I quickly realized is that I had to worry about the 100 other inmates when it was time to go to the ground to handle the one idiot acting up. I enrolled in tracy's kenpo to learn the stand up game. I cross-train in both so I am comfortable on the ground or standing up. Obviously, for most of you on here, you don't have this problem. But, let me tell you first hand it is this scenario that you truly find what works when all hell breaks loose. I prefer kenpo over jujitsu because the fight can be ended quickly with the rapid striking ability to vital target areas. Jujitsu is more of a chess match on the ground that can take time (that I may not have). But, I do need to know how to get back up on my feet and this is where the jujitsu comes in handy.

Not all Jujitsu is groundwork. BJJ and Trad.JJ are better "together."

 

[kenpojitsu13]

Not all Jujitsu is groundwork. BJJ and Trad.JJ are better "together."[/quote


Thanks for clarifying for me, I agree both would be beneficial together.