How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?

[RTKDCMB]

I mean we train a defence that can pretty reliably get us cut to ribbons in training vs a rubber knife. From a guy with almost no training.

But the technique still works because reasons.

If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok so now you're just getting mad because I refuted your argument. Just because this scares you and you're ignorant of such common practice of a fighting gym, doesn't mean that it's a fairy tale.

You are ascribing emotions to me that are not in play here.

Not sure how else I can explain it to you. Puppet show maybe?

And now you are getting snarky because I do not share your sentiments.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A lot of schools break nose, lips and bleed in their classes.

I have seen all of those injuries in non-contact sparring.

 

[Drose427]

I have seen all of those injuries in non-contact sparring.

I have as well, but mentioning the hard contact drills schools do contested his sentiment that TMA's only do Light or no contact stuff.

Semi Contact Point Karate from the 70s showe'd even without being 100%, folks can still whoop the heck out of each other

 

[RTKDCMB]

Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them,

You mean once?

 

[RTKDCMB]

MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death.

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. I don't know what kind of MMA matches you have been watching but that is not what is going on.

The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.

The only reason no one dies is because of all of the safety measures they have in place. If your comment was in any way accurate then MMA bouts would be banned just about everywhere.

Thanks for proving my point that such incidents vs. Robin Givens wasn't even that bad compared to what Tyson did to his opponents in the ring.

Maybe you should tell that to Robin Givens.

If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes

I bet most MMA guys in your weight class with at least 5 fights shouldn't have a problem with you as you don't seem to coming from a standpoint of someone who fights.

You seem to me to be of the opinion that any MMA fighter with even a modicum of experience can beat any TMA guy in seconds which is quite frankly naive and ignorant.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Rare huh? Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?

Just a few days ago one of our junior black belts was attacked. A girl grabbed her hair and yanked it down hard, she (the junior black belt) just kicked her in the ribs with a front kick and that was the end of it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Rare huh? Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?

Not tonight, but the night is young... I did have one guy tell me he was going to assault me, but he changed his mind.
It's mid-March right now, and just going from memory, I'd say I've been attacked 5 times this year. It could be more, but those are the ones I remember.

 

[ShotoNoob]

It might help us understand you better if you defined what you mean by TMA in general and traditional karate specifically.

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Please see my reply to "ZERO" over @ "MMA and Similar Arts are not True Martial Arts." @ Page 3.

From what I've read in other threads, you would seem to use the term so that it encompasses Shotokan, TKD, and whatever style you personally train, which you have said is an offshoot of Shotokan. (What is your style called, by the way?)

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Right. BTW: Have to keep some secrets....

From an historical standpoint, those are all relatively recent members of the karate family and many folks don't consider them to be that traditional. What precisely is it that you mean when you say "traditional?"

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right. 'cause they are looking at outward form versus foundation. Again--see the above-listed T. Read the Gichin Funakoshi material. He's an academic type individual and so holds little appeal for many aggressive, physically-centered individuals. Yet he has a whole world of the most popular traditional karate followers on the planet. Much of this is due to heavy promotion by the JKA, other orgs.
> Yet still, astounding for a smallish, bookish academic.
> I personally don't read a lot about him. It's the foundational principles he puts in his curriculum that are so very valuable and on target.
> His interpretation is by no means the best or most sophisticated one. He's by no means a genius, imo.
> He just sheds light in a very helpful way. And that's the genius.

 

[drop bear]

If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.

By definition.

Knife defence in the sense that you can reliably stop a physical attack is pretty unreliable.

 

[Buka]

When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people. My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground. The crowd watched.... My facial bones broke. My jaw broke. I went unconscious. When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.

This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage. There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight. It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.

Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.

I'm glad you're okay, brother.

 

[Tez3]

Knife defence in the sense that you can reliably stop a physical attack is pretty unreliable.

Now that's a sentence to marvel at.

 

[drop bear]

Now that's a sentence to marvel at.

Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.

 

[Tez3]

Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.

Well your original sentence made no sense.

There are no knife defences where you won't get cut, the trick is to minimise the amount of times you get cut and make sure you aren't cut anywhere vital. It's a dirty business and the very best knife defence is not to be there.
I was taught to fight with a knife before I learnt any defences, it's a useful skill, as is knife throwing.

 

[drop bear]

Well your original sentence made no sense.

There are no knife defences where you won't get cut, the trick is to minimise the amount of times you get cut and make sure you aren't cut anywhere vital. It's a dirty business and the very best knife defence is not to be there.
I was taught to fight with a knife before I learnt any defences, it's a useful skill, as is knife throwing.

Before we start i trained knife/knife defence. Taught it full time for a year and have fought guys with knives who were really out to get me.

But everybody i have ever seen spar unarmed with knives basically gets eviscerated. And afterward you get the consolation of minimised cuts or that in the street the knife attacker wont be going as hard or be as trained.

Live training makes this glaringly obvious.

So why is knife defence useful when the best defence is not too be there?

Train not being there.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it being used. NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works. You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do

 

[drop bear]

If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it being used. NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works. You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do

We have done that with our local rugby team. Used shoot boxing (16 ounce gloves but with takedowns.)

Works quite well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It might help us understand you better if you defined what you mean by TMA in general and traditional karate specifically.

Please see my reply to "ZERO" over @ "MMA and Similar Arts are not True Martial Arts." @ Page 3.

Here's what I tell students (or instructors) that are willing to take input. Simply, IN TRADITIONAL KARATE, MENTAL DRIVES PHYSICAL. Just as you state, the physical expresses the action, but it is the mental capability that powers that physical expression. PERIOD.

Yeah ... can you clarify how "mental drives physical" more in what you call "traditional karate" than in any other art? Can you break down what that even means?

Let's look a bit at how "mental" and "physical" work in any art for any human being in the real world:

1) You practice various basic physical skills and movements with conscious awareness. With sufficient repetition, you build new neural pathways in your brain for the execution of these skills and movements. Once fully formed, these pathways become automated at a level below your normal conscious awareness - you no longer have to think "push off my rear foot, rotate my rear hip forward, tighten my core, transfer the rotation into my shoulder, extend my arm, tighten my fist, etc". You just think "reverse punch" and those neural pathways fire off and send the signals to make your muscles execute the punch.

2) You consciously practice higher level perceptual and tactical skills which may make use of the previously mentioned physical skills. You might practice getting off angle when your opponent punches and punching back when he drops his guard. With enough repetition, the details of this also become automated below conscious awareness. You find yourself starting to move off angle as your opponent begins his strike because you already subconsciously recognized the "tell" where he dropped his shoulder or changed his stance slightly before punching. When you strike back, you automatically aim for the targets that your opponent has left uncovered. All this happens due to more complex neural pathways that have been developed through practice. You don't have to consciously think about it any more than you have to think about the shapes of the letters on the page when you read. (If you are still consciously thinking about these elements, then you are probably not reacting fast enough to execute these skills in a real fight.)

3) You train to handle certain neurochemical effects of a real fight - adrenaline, fear, anger, pain, fatigue. This involves a highly complex interaction between your brain, your muscles, and your endocrine system. With experience, you learn to get better at overcoming the deleterious effects of these reactions and utilizing the positive effects.

4) While all the above is going on, you are hopefully building physical strength and endurance as well. this is primarily a "physical" process (muscles, tendons, bones, circulatory system), although there is some training of the neural pathways involved in pure strength training as well.

5) When it comes time for the fight, your conscious mind is in charge of the big picture - "keep an eye on the guy in front of me, circle for the exit, but don't lose track of his buddy that's hanging back" You might devote cognitive resources to the elements mentioned in #3 above - "relax, keep the breath calm, don't get frustrated". You might make conscious tactical decisions - "his buddy is cutting me off from the door - as soon as he gets in range, blitz him with punches, then disengage and run."

All of this is mental (the brain) driving physical (the muscles, although the circulatory and endocrine systems get involved too). (Technically, there's a complex feedback loop going on between the different systems, but let's keep it simple for now.)

If by "mental", you mean the conscious mind, then it gets a bit fuzzier. The conscious mind is like the CEO of a vast company, sitting at headquarters receiving quarterly reports and setting out strategic plans. 99.99% of what is going on in the company is beyond the executive's direct perception or control. He has to just trust that the various departments are doing their jobs. If your conscious mind is trying to micro-manage your body on the details of how to throw a punch during a fight, then you've already lost.

So, to return to my question, how does any of this work differently in what you are calling "traditional karate" (Shotokan & TKD & your secret art) versus any other martial art?

 

[Tez3]

The majority of stabbings here aren't from knife fights, they are slash /stab and run. Often it takes a while before the person who is stabbed realises it. Knife 'fights' are quite rare with the chances of being able to defend yourself quite small. If someone is waving a knife around the best thing to do is to get out the best you can.
The standard defence is usually taught with the person holding the knife in front of you either about to stab down or slash across, it's never from the back in a sly attack, never slash and run and never with a hidden knife brought out to be stabbed as you grapple, face off or whatever.

 

[FriedRice]

If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.

Or that your defense training is way too fake compared to his, being way more realistic.