How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

So why did you post these videos except to hang s#'t on the training yet again. No comment, no question. Of course the implication is that what you see in the bunkai training is different to what you see in kumite. Here you have an explanation of bunkai and sport sparring, exactly the reason we, and many other traditional Goju schools don't do it.

I don't know if Tom Hill's karate guys compete in karate tournaments. If they do it only stands to reason that they would spar in their training.

They don't;
goju.co.uk

So it's not sport sparring. That's how they fight.

Where'd all that Bunkai go?

 

[elder999]

Do you?

 

[Hanzou]

LoL!

I especially liked the part where he threw him 10 feet.

C'mon man, you're a Judoka, you should know better.

 

[elder999]

LoL!

I especially liked the part where he threw him 10 feet.

C'mon man, you're a Judoka, you should know better.

Principle based, and a demonstration-you should know better.

Also, you should look back to post #178:

Actually, given Funakoshi's relationship with his Okinawan homeboys, and the Japanese, and what went into giving the Japanese 空手?,karate empty hand, as opposed to the Okinawan's 唐手, kara/tang te, China hand, what isn't shown in the photographs of the throws is of no small importance-he is stepping through with the strike to the groin, but he's also doing something else that isn't shown.
....

There were things in Kyohan that were deliberately omitted, in case that wasn't clear. Cirdan even hinted at it, just as this video did (not the best example, but it is Yari Dama, so.....)

 

[K-man]

They don't;
goju.co.uk

So it's not sport sparring. That's how they fight.

Where'd all that Bunkai go?

No, that is how the spar. Big difference, but then I wouldn't expect you to understand.

 

[Hanzou]

Principle based, and a demonstration-you should know better.

If you think that's a sound throw, more power to you Elder.

No, that is how the spar. Big difference....

Riiiiight.

 

[elder999]

If you think that's a sound throw, more power to you Elder.

Hey, it's a throw-it would work in a real situation against someone who hasn't trained for it. It isn't one of my "go to" items, but I'm old, crusty and sociopathic-I'm as likely to shoot or stab someone as I am to drop them on their head.

Anyway, a few pages ago you were insisting that there was "no grappling" in Shotokan, or any of the other forms of karate-about which you seem to have limited understanding, BTW (like, you know-Shotokan is "modern," and Shorin-ryu and other Okinawan forms of karate are what Funakoshi used to make it up, back in the 1920s.....Kyokushin comes mostly from Goju.....sort of....., as K-man said, and lots of other forms came from Kyokushin...

(Still waiting for that apology, BTW)

 

[Hanzou]

Anyway, a few pages ago you were insisting that there was "no grappling" in Shotokan, or any of the other forms of karate-about which you seem to have limited understanding, BTW (like, you know-Shotokan is "modern," and Shorin-ryu and other Okinawan forms of karate are what Funakoshi used to make it up, back in the 1920s.....Kyokushin comes mostly from Goju.....sort of....., as K-man said, and lots of other forms came from Kyokushin...

Just to clarify, Kman said that Shotokan had no grappling. I said that grappling wasn't prevalent in Karate.

Big difference,

(Still waiting for that apology, BTW)

Ain't happening.

 

[elder999]

Just to clarify, Kman said that Shotokan had no grappling. I said that grappling wasn't prevalent in Karate.

Big difference,

You're the one telling me that karate is some sort of grappling art, yet I have to see any grappling in it outside some demonstrations by a couple of individuals. If grappling in Karate is as prevalent as you say it is, where is it?

No, there's no big difference. The way you said it, it's kind of like saying black people aren't prevalent at KKK rallies.

Ain't happening.

Mmmhmmm.

 

[RTKDCMB]

that the grappling that does exist in karate is "crude" and not comparable to actual grappling,

So grappling in Karate is not "actual grappling", good to know.

The striking in BJJ, as seen in the early UFC, is crude and not comparable to 'actual striking'. See we can do that too.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. Karate. They spar like they do because of their stance work. Which strengthened and stretched their bodies to perform the movements that they use when sparring.

having sparred kyokashin guys. (should learn to spell that) they kick fundamentally different to thai. That is due to the different training.

and their grappling is meh.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You need to keep the arm extended while your stepping in for the groin grab. So you catch their wrist, extend their arm, and then step in and grab their nuts, still somehow extending the arm, and your opponent not resisting you at all. Its nonsense.

Or you could grab it whilst it is already extended from a punch.

Care to show some examples of free sparring where people are catching each other's wrists from punches?

Translation - if it does not appear on YouTube or in a video somewhere it doesn't exist.

Yes, and Aikido goes with the motion of the attack to assist in establishing control over the entire body. That throw doesn't.

I did not say it did. I merely responded to your claim that you can not control a whole body with just one arm.

You mean Gracie striking? They did a pretty good job against striking arts on various occasions. That would include TKD. I would say that that proves that their striking is at least competent.

And as far as I can remember, he did not defeat a single opponent with striking.

 

[K-man]

Just to clarify, Kman said that Shotokan had no grappling. I said that grappling wasn't prevalent in Karate.

Big difference,

You are constantly misrepresenting people and basically that constitutes lying. I have just reread 15 pages of this thread to ensure that I was correct in my thoughts. Why would I say that Shotokan has no grappling when grappling is inherent in the kihon and the kata. Whether grappling is practised in a particular school is a different question.

So how did you get it so wrong? Well for a start you don't read the posts.

Read the post. Shotokan was a Japanese form of karate that removed most if not all of the grappling. Otsuka reintroduced the grappling component after studying with Okinawan masters. He just put back into his karate what was already in traditional karate. To me Japanese karate in the main may be classified as traditional but not in the sense of being the same as the original, but perhaps that's a little deep for you.

Here I said Shotokan removed most if not all of the grappling. That is to say as a sport style karate with rules that prevent clinching and throwing the training of grappling just isn't there in most cases. The elements of grappling are still in the kihon and the kata. Perhaps I should have said Otsuka reintroduced the grappling training into Wado.

Interesting. So I know little of Karate because I point out the lack of throws when you yourself admit that the grappling from Shotokan was removed?

Which just goes to show that if we don't refute your misrepresentations when you post them your post the misinformation as fact later.

Grappling was removed from almost all the karate that went into schools and universities because that was not part of the fitness requirement that was the reason for its introduction into the schools to begin with. That is why I use the term 'schoolboy karate'. 'Schoolboy karate' was what most of us learned in the past and it is obvious that it is all you have ever seen. Even in Shotokan the throws etc are all taught as kihon in the basic training. If you can't recognise them for what they are that is your problem.

Actually, even when I do refute your statement you still claim your misinformation as fact.
I'll repost the important bit ...
Even in Shotokan the throws etc are all taught as kihon in the basic training. If you can't recognise them for what they are that is your problem.

I'm pretty sure that Kman himself said that Shotokan removed grappling from its curriculum. Shotokan is one of the most common karate styles in the world.

Well I'm pretty sure K-man never made that claim at all and whether or not Shotokan is one of the most common styles has nothing to do with the discussion.

My argument has always been that grappling isn't prevalent in karate. Considering that Ian Abernethy himself said that there are traditional and modern instructors of karate that don't teach it, that the founders of karate viewed it as unimportant and secondary to striking, and that the grappling that does exist in karate is "crude" and not comparable to actual grappling, I would say my argument is just fine.

Um, no. You were arguing that karate was all punches and kicks, no grappling. As with the shifting sands your position has changed.

Just to clarify, Kman said that Shotokan had no grappling. I said that grappling wasn't prevalent in Karate.

Big difference,

Just to clarify, K-man never said that at all.

Big difference indeed. From your original position to this. But my position has not changed. Even in Japanese karate where I started years ago we had limited grappling. Once I saw Okinawan Karate I was blown away. It is close contact fighting most of the time.

 

[ballen0351]

If only the free sparring looked as good..

What happened?

Dude are you that freaking insecure in yourself and your style (if you even train which I'm not conviced of) that you constantly have to bash others. I don't understand how this train wreck hasn't been locked yet. 1 comment about the 2nd amendment around here and the thread is locked down in a second. Yet you have spent 15 pages telling people karate is crap and bashed damn near everything about it and none of the admin care. Not to mention countless other threads doing the same thing. I guess it's ok to bash a style as long as you don't name it personally and use broad terms like "karate" So I guess I can start talking crap about "grappling" or that grappling style from south America and that's ok as long as I don't actually name it. This place is so damn inconsistent with its rules.

Instead of being a stubborn little jerk why not open your mind and see what people are saying. People like Elder and Kman have been doing this for probably longer the you have been alive. People like Tez actually help train fighters her experience is valuable. There are plenty of others here that have much more time, knowledge, and experience then you do and you think it's ok to just crap on them. Not only that you make Racist comments to Elder that apparently is ok around here and when he calls you out and asks for an apology you act like a little child. Man you need to grow up listen more and talk less or don't either way your a clown

 

[Hanzou]

So grappling in Karate is not "actual grappling", good to know.

The striking in BJJ, as seen in the early UFC, is crude and not comparable to 'actual striking'. See we can do that too.

Well the difference is that the person who said that about grappling in karate was Ian Abernathy, a highly regarded and respected Karate expert.

Are you an expert in Bjj? I don't think so.

Dude are you that freaking insecure in yourself and your style (if you even train which I'm not conviced of) that you constantly have to bash others. I don't understand how this train wreck hasn't been locked yet. 1 comment about the 2nd amendment around here and the thread is locked down in a second. Yet you have spent 15 pages telling people karate is crap and bashed damn near everything about it and none of the admin care. Not to mention countless other threads doing the same thing. I guess it's ok to bash a style as long as you don't name it personally and use broad terms like "karate" So I guess I can start talking crap about "grappling" or that grappling style from south America and that's ok as long as I don't actually name it. This place is so damn inconsistent with its rules.

Just FYI; Pointing out the lack of grappling in modern Karate, or that a group of karatekas are sparring differently than their bunkai isn't "bashing" karate.

 

[ballen0351]

[QUOTE="Hanzou, post: 1670921,]

Just FYI; Pointing out the lack of grappling in modern Karate, or that a group of karatekas are sparring differently than their bunkai isn't "bashing" karate.[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI of that's all you were doing we wouldn't be having this conversation. If that's all you believe your doing you need to seek some help

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you an expert in Bjj? I don't think so. .

I am not an expert in BJJ but I know when striking is good and when it isn't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Mod Note:
Thread locked pending staff review.