How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

You seem to be under the impression that the arm will be extended for an extended period of time (see what I did there). Can you keep their arm extended for 5 minutes - not likely, can you keep their arm extended for the second or two it takes you to perform a throw - not a problem.

You need to keep the arm extended while your stepping in for the groin grab. So you catch their wrist, extend their arm, and then step in and grab their nuts, still somehow extending the arm, and your opponent not resisting you at all. Its nonsense.

Since you have very limited experience with blocking and little knowledge of martial arts in general I am not surprised you think that.

Care to show some examples of free sparring where people are catching each other's wrists from punches?

Have you not seen any Aikido video ever?

Yes, and Aikido goes with the motion of the attack to assist in establishing control over the entire body. That throw doesn't.

Of course I am talking to someone that thinks grappling beats striking in every situation and based on the fact that you think the striking in the video you posted is good doesn't surprise me either.

You mean Gracie striking? They did a pretty good job against striking arts on various occasions. That would include TKD. I would say that that proves that their striking is at least competent.

 

[Hanzou]

It would have been more interesting if you had posted the correct link.
Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

I had read it in the past and I reread it just now. What part did you find interesting, the bit about karate being designed to combat untrained assailants or the bit saying that the grappling in karate is different to what you find in a system designed to compete with others skilled in the same art?

The part where he said that karate "grappling" was crude by design and is not comparable to MMA grappling.

I bolded the text for reason.

 

[ballen0351]

The part where he said that karate "grappling" was crude by design and is not comparable to MMA grappling.

I bolded the text for reason.

Did anyone say it was comparable? You keep making claims it doesn't exist.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Here's a good video...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//Mr Bean - Judo Class - YouTube" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[K-man]

You guys need to chill. If you were in Dojo and speaking to each other like this - and don't tell me that has nothing to do with it - whoever the hell taught you would probably kick your *** for manners.

True, but if someone walked into a dojo and told them that their martial art was s#'t then things might get interesting and really, that is exactly what is happening here.

Style bashing is against the rules but you can obviously get away with it if you choose your words carefully to avoid the obvious. I find this type of discussion offensive and annoying, the very reaction these posts are designed to engender. It might be different if this was the first time it has occurred but sadly, that is not the case.

I am sick to death of being told my training is archaic or that my kata training is a waste of time, that there is no grappling in karate when we practise it every session, when such posting comes from a person with no understanding of traditional karate. I am sick of being told that unless we compete in the ring to 'prove' our effectiveness then our training is second rate, even though the styles we train were never designed for the ring.

I'm happy to take your advice. Just what should we do? I ignored it and walked away but the attacks intensified without me. This used to be a forum where we had a free interchange of ideas and advice. We never had to spend countless hours defending our chosen martial art from a troll. We even tried humour as a distraction. But if you have an idea of how to put a stop to this nonsense I'd be happy to go along with it.

 

[Hanzou]

Did anyone say it was comparable? You keep making claims it doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure that Kman himself said that Shotokan removed grappling from its curriculum. Shotokan is one of the most common karate styles in the world.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm pretty sure that Kman himself said that Shotokan removed grappling from its curriculum. Shotokan is one of the most common karate styles in the world.

And? it's not the only style. Karate is a broad term. I know we have it in Goju, I know it's in Isshin ryu, Tez said it's in Wado Ryu. And Elder showed it's in Shotokan so.......there goes your argument

 

[elder999]

And? it's not the only style. Karate is a broad term. I know we have it in Goju, I know it's in Isshin ryu, Tez said it's in Wado Ryu. And Elder showed it's in Shotokan so.......there goes your argument

It's in Kyokushin, though you might not get to see it-hell, there are people out there claiming to do Kyokushin who don't practice kata....

 

[elder999]

I'm pretty sure that Kman himself said that Shotokan removed grappling from its curriculum. Shotokan is one of the most common karate styles in the world.

It's never been "removed from the curriculum," any more than striking was removed from judo.

 

[Hanzou]

And? it's not the only style. Karate is a broad term. I know we have it in Goju, I know it's in Isshin ryu, Tez said it's in Wado Ryu. And Elder showed it's in Shotokan so.......there goes your argument

My argument has always been that grappling isn't prevalent in karate. Considering that Ian Abernethy himself said that there are traditional and modern instructors of karate that don't teach it, that the founders of karate viewed it as unimportant and secondary to striking, and that the grappling that does exist in karate is "crude" and not comparable to actual grappling, I would say my argument is just fine.

 

[K-man]

However, we need to be 100% clear that the grappling of karate is not comparable to the highly skilled grappling exhibited by MMA practitioners. It is, by design, very crude by comparison and as I said in the year 2000 in my Karate's Grappling Methods book, “If your aim is to compete in sport grappling, or to posses the skills needed to out wrestle a trained grappler, then it would be prudent to take up a dedicated grappling art.” -

I'm not sure what you find so surprising. "Grappling of karate is not comparable to the highly skilled grappling exhibited by MMA practitioners". Wow, that's really cerebral stuff. Who would of thought that? I have said in many other posts, if I was going to compete against trained grapplers I would learn BJJ. Just what did I mean by that? Well, grappling on the ground is of no interest to me. I have no desire to compete with trained grapplers in the ring. My grappling skill is to get my opponent to the floor, hopefully without me following him down. If I do go down, cool, I believe I have sufficient skill to regain my feet against most grapplers.

“If your aim is to compete in sport grappling, or to posses the skills needed to out wrestle a trained grappler, then it would be prudent to take up a dedicated grappling art.” More rocket science!

Why are you going on and on questioning the attributes of other martial arts? Give up, go and start a thread "float like a feather, sting like a horse fly" or something else to showcase how BJJ is the greatest! (With apologies to Mohamed Ali.)

 

[elder999]

It's never been "removed from the curriculum," any more than striking was removed from judo.

 

[elder999]

 

[elder999]

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[elder999]

 

[elder999]

 

[Hanzou]

If only the free sparring looked as good..

What happened?

 

[K-man]

My argument has always been that grappling isn't prevalent in karate. Considering that Ian Abernethy himself said that there are traditional and modern instructors of karate that don't teach it, that the founders of karate viewed it as unimportant and secondary to striking, and that the grappling that does exist in karate is "crude" and not comparable to actual grappling, I would say my argument is just fine.

Um, no! You argued for a long time that grappling never existed in karate. You have feet of sand, constantly shifting. There are many instructors who don't teach it because their instructors didn't teach it. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it wasn't taught. And I'm surprised that you are quoting Iain Abernethy as in the past you have torn him down.

But again you have stated and a fact something that us blatantly untrue. Just which 'founder of karate' viewed grappling as unimportant? Which one actually said grappling was secondary to striking. In the traditional form of karate you start with Tegumi. Like contemporary practice you enter to engage (grapple), strike and withdraw. Every time you return your hand to carriage you are training to grapple. It happens with every single strike in karate kihon so to say it is unimportant is stupidity. Why would you train something regularly that is unimportant?

Your next offensive remark is that karate grappling is not comparable to 'actual' grappling. Just what does that mean? It might be crude but it sure as hell is effective.

Your arguement is not fine. It is blatantly flawed and as with most of your posts, offensive to those of use who diligently train and teach those skills. This is style bashing as bad as I have seen on this forum.

 

[elder999]

You need to keep the arm extended while your stepping in for the groin grab. .

Do you?

 

[K-man]

If only the free sparring looked as good..

What happened?

So why did you post these videos except to hang s#'t on the training yet again. No comment, no question. Of course the implication is that what you see in the bunkai training is different to what you see in kumite. Here you have an explanation of bunkai and sport sparring, exactly the reason we, and many other traditional Goju schools don't do it.

I don't know if Tom Hill's karate guys compete in karate tournaments. If they do it only stands to reason that they would spar in their training.