How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

Gosh, things are travelling so fast I almost missed this little gem.

You could have fooled me. You backed up your crazy notion of karate by telling us you held a high rank in karate that turned out to be Shodan. Now your saying you are not an expert so I accept that you know nothing about karate and that validates our opinion of your opinions on karate.

Grappling starts on day one with the stances. Sanchin dachi, zenkutsu dachi and Shiko dachi are three of the stances you are taught on your first training session that are your stances for your first takedowns. That is day one, not after you get your Shodan. Then mawatte was mentioned. Maybe not taught on day one but certainly in the first three or four lessons. Mawatte is a hip throw. You really didn't pay attention in your karate classes. A white belt in my class could show you those, in fact my students all have to demonstrate them in their Kyu gradings, plus a wide range of locks and holds. As to 'modern' karate, I wouldn't know but it was even in the Japanese karate I was taught over 30 years ago.

I find it interesting that you imply I know nothing of karate because of my statements, yet you go on to say this in post #239;

Read the post. Shotokan was a Japanese form of karate that removed most if not all of the grappling. Otsuka reintroduced the grappling component after studying with Okinawan masters. He just put back into his karate what was already in traditional karate. To me Japanese karate in the main may be classified as traditional but not in the sense of being the same as the original, but perhaps that's a little deep for you.

Interesting. So I know little of Karate because I point out the lack of throws when you yourself admit that the grappling from Shotokan was removed?

Even your personal hero Ian Abernathy discusses the dearth of grappling in karate instruction;

Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

So why is it so hard to teach grappling from kata? The use of kata and the application had been explained to you countless times yet you still make stupid claims about kata, something you never understood and obviously have zero knowledge. As soon as you start training the kata bunkai you are grappling.

Because you don't develop the sensitivity necessary to become a proficient grappler without grappling with a partner. The grips, the leverage, the weight, the resistance, etc. is all vital for grappling training.

Define sparring! The videos you claim to be karate sparring have all been point sparring, competition type sparring. I posted some of the other style of training and you spouted that it wasn't real karate and that no one else trains that way.

If sparring is what you do in BJJ then we spar too.

Sparring - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

One-step drills ain't sparring.

Here is what Danny said;

That's not what Danny said. Read post #185.

Yea, I agree shadowchaser my experiences are similar.
Let's see,
Shotokan in 71 & 72, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yes we did.
Goju Ryu in 73 -74, throws, takedowns, arm and leg locks, & chokes. Yeap did that.
Shotokan 75-76, different instructor, different school. Yes here again.
TKD 73-74, I realize it isn't Karate but non the less. Yes we did throws & etc in this training. Wasn't just kicking.

I also know of 8 Shotokan schools and 3 Karate (???) schools in my area all but 1 has..., wait for it... they have; here it is. Throws!! And all they do is Karate but for one that does also do BJJ (BJJ Revelution).

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, Danny's not saying he learned 72+ throws at all! You really don't understand what is written.

A dearth of grappling does not indicate there was never nor that there is not grappling in karate. I know what Iain said, I have his books, been to his seminars and am on his forum where such things are discussed...politely and knowledgably among the posters.

 

[Danny T]

[QUOTE="Hanzou]
That's not what Danny said. Read post #185.[/QUOTE]

Sir, sir, sir you read into things that aren’t there.

What I was commenting on was that my experiences in Karate as for learning throws was similar to shadowchaser in that I learned some throws in Shotokan, Goju Ryu, and TKD.

What I wrote was:

“Shotokan in 71 & 72,…” (that is short for; in 1971 & 1972)

“Goju Ryu in 73 – 74,…” (that is short for; in 1973 to 1974)

“TKD 75 – 76,…” (again short for; in 1975 to 1976)


I did not write anything about 70 + techniques nor did I write anything about throws being widely taught in Shotokan. I can only say what is from my perspective in that I learned throws in the Karate training I experienced.
And Sir That Experience Is I Learned Throws. Just because YOU didn’t you are attempting to tell me I didn’t either.

You have, and I thank you, strengthen my view that you won't admit your training is limited, your knowledge is limited and will not allow that others have experiences different from you.

 

[Tez3]

He shoots, he scores! Nice one Danny T!

 

[K-man]

Ok, I've just worked it out. You have to expand the box to read my comments.

I find it interesting that you imply I know nothing of karate because of my statements, yet you go on to say this in post #239;

I'll repeat it ... You know nothing about karate! I'll couch it in terms you might understand. I probably know more about BJJ than you know about karate. I know very little BJJ which is why I never comment on technical BJJ issues. Perhaps you could take a leaf from that book.

Interesting. So I know little of Karate because I point out the lack of throws when you yourself admit that the grappling from Shotokan was removed?

Grappling was removed from almost all the karate that went into schools and universities because that was not part of the fitness requirement that was the reason for its introduction into the schools to begin with. That is why I use the term 'schoolboy karate'. 'Schoolboy karate' was what most of us learned in the past and it is obvious that it is all you have ever seen. Even in Shotokan the throws etc are all taught as kihon in the basic training. If you can't recognise them for what they are that is your problem.

And btw, most modern forms of Karate were derived from Shotokan.

Crap!
<Insert BS emoticon here>
Probably the next most popular Japanese style, Kyokushin really came from Goju Kai which came from Okinawan Goju Ryu. Oyama started with Shotokan, but switched to Goju to train with Yamaguchi who had a more rigorous style. Shotokan and Goju Kai were the two styles that dominated not only the Japanese scene but also the international scene. There have been breakaways all over the place from these, as there have been from other styles. Most of those styles are relatively minor.

Even your personal hero Ian Abernathy discusses the dearth of grappling in karate instruction;

Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

You are being offensive and obnoxious. Iain is one of the most highly respected Western karateka. He is not my personal hero. He is a man whom I respect and look to as someone who has more knowledge than me, an experience you are unlikely to have. A lot of us lament the dearth of grappling in karate which is why a number of us are trying to address the issue and teach the traditional skills.

Because you don't develop the sensitivity necessary to become a proficient grappler without grappling with a partner. The grips, the leverage, the weight, the resistance, etc. is all vital for grappling training.

Sparring - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Which is why this constitutes the majority of our training.

One-step drills ain't sparring.

Which is why we don't do them.

 

[Hanzou]

[
You have, and I thank you, strengthen my view that you won't admit your training is limited, your knowledge is limited and will not allow that others have experiences different from you.

Or that I simply misread your post. Also if you read my response, I respected your experience in Karate. I simply said that I'm skeptical that you learned all of that in the arts described. If you did, good for you.

Still waiting for the names or websites of those schools you trained at.

And you're welcome.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll repeat it ... You know nothing about karate! I'll couch it in terms you might understand. I probably know more about BJJ than you know about karate. I know very little BJJ which is why I never comment on technical BJJ issues. Perhaps you could take a leaf from that book.

You mean like you attempted to do earlier with striking in Bjj?

Grappling was removed from almost all the karate that went into schools and universities because that was not part of the fitness requirement that was the reason for its introduction into the schools to begin with. That is why I use the term 'schoolboy karate'. 'Schoolboy karate' was what most of us learned in the past and it is obvious that it is all you have ever seen. Even in Shotokan the throws etc are all taught as kihon in the basic training. If you can't recognise them for what they are that is your problem.

Oh I recognize them just fine. I find it interesting that you call me ignorant for pointing out exactly what you're stating above, and what Abernathy discusses in his article that Tez posted.

Crap!
<Insert BS emoticon here>
Probably the next most popular Japanese style, Kyokushin really came from Goju Kai which came from Okinawan Goju Ryu. Oyama started with Shotokan, but switched to Goju to train with Yamaguchi who had a more rigorous style. Shotokan and Goju Kai were the two styles that dominated not only the Japanese scene but also the international scene. There have been breakaways all over the place from these, as there have been from other styles. Most of those styles are relatively minor.

And here we are again with you calling my statement BS, then turning around and pretty much repeating what I said.

Its kind of hilarious.

You are being offensive and obnoxious. Iain is one of the most highly respected Western karateka. He is not my personal hero. He is a man whom I respect and look to as someone who has more knowledge than me, an experience you are unlikely to have. A lot of us lament the dearth of grappling in karate which is why a number of us are trying to address the issue and teach the traditional skills.

Interesting that I pointed out the dearth of grappling in Karate, and I was called ignorant for it.

Which is why this constitutes the majority of our training.


Which is why we don't do them.

Okay then.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know how to break it to you Hanzou but you misread everyone's posts just about. And if your response was showing respect to Danny's training it didn't read like with the comment you made about the places he's trained and then again asking for where he trained because you don't believe him! You are calling him a liar and that is against the rules here.
Either you except that what we are all telling you is the truth or you carrying on calling us liars and that will end in getting the thread locked.

 

[Tez3]

The Cross-Buttocks Throw A forgotten throw of Karate Boxing Taekwondo Iain Abernethy
Please read the first paragraph because as usual you are twisting what has been said.

"Throwing techniques are not something that one immediately associates with arts like boxing, karate or taekwondo. However, basic grappling and throwing methods were once a part of these systems (or their forerunners) and it is only in comparatively recent times that these aspects have been neglected. Neglect does not mean not still taught however. The primary reason for the neglect of these methods is the martial arts changing their focus from the defeat of a violent and untrained attacker in a civilian environment (self-protection) to the defeat of practitioners of the same discipline in a sporting environment. This has seen many techniques not associated with sporting success - often the most brutal and potent ones - fall by the wayside. - "

red words are mine.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know how to break it to you Hanzou but you misread everyone's posts just about. And if your response was showing respect to Danny's training it didn't read like with the comment you made about the places he's trained and then again asking for where he trained because you don't believe him! You are calling him a liar and that is against the rules here.
Either you except that what we are all telling you is the truth or you carrying on calling us liars and that will end in getting the thread locked.

Um, I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm simply curious and would like more information about a rarity. If someone said they had pictures of Bigfoot wouldn't you like to see them?

The Cross-Buttocks Throw A forgotten throw of Karate Boxing Taekwondo Iain Abernethy
Please read the first paragraph because as usual you are twisting what has been said.

And how exactly was this throw "forgotten"?

 

[Tez3]

Um, I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm simply curious and would like more information about a rarity. If someone said they had pictures of Bigfoot wouldn't you like to see them?



And how exactly was this throw "forgotten"?

Really? Just how insulting are you going to get? We tell you we have learnt something and you call this a 'rarity'? We, karatekas all tell you about our training and you state 'no you didn't do it', on the basis that in your limited experience in karate you didn't do. I have never played American football but I would not dispute what an American football player says when they tell how the game is played.

Seriously, your obtuseness and refusal to actually believe what anyone says is provocative, rude and counter productive to any sensible discussion on the subject. People have gone to great lengths to prove something to you and you have thrown everything back in their face because you think it flies in the face of what you think you know but quite honestly you do not.

Iain Abernethy is on FB, he can be emailed and you can join his forum, please do because you aren't going to believe any of us and I don't actually think you will believe him seeing as you are also disrespectful towards him but at least you will be peddling your nonsense elsewhere. Perhaps he can explain Tegumi to you, perhaps he will make you understand why he has written books on the karate grappling, throws etc. because all you appear to be doing here is extensive trolling. Yes I used the word trolling because I have no other explanation for the fact that you spend considerable time posting on here just to upset people by refusing to believe what they have written, mocking their experiences in martial arts and generally being unpleasant in the way you approach them. Asking for proof isn't going to endear you or engender a useful debate every time you disagree with someone.
Someone suggested you were young and fairly new to martial arts, if so then there's hope you may learn the empty cup principle. A lot of us have trained a very long time in our styles, we may not always be right about things, we may not always remember things but for sure this doesn't mean you sneer, tell people they couldn't have done something and generally act like a spoilt brat demanding attention because you've found you can pick your nose and think it very clever indeed.
I for one will not be answering any more of your posts on this thread, when I feel the need to be insulted, mocked or generally misused I will take off people from 'ignore' and read them but I imagine hell will freeze over before I feel that need.

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[Hanzou]

However, we need to be 100% clear that the grappling of karate is not comparable to the highly skilled grappling exhibited by MMA practitioners. It is, by design, very crude by comparison and as I said in the year 2000 in my Karate's Grappling Methods book, “If your aim is to compete in sport grappling, or to posses the skills needed to out wrestle a trained grappler, then it would be prudent to take up a dedicated grappling art.” - See more at: Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exis

Interesting.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well for starters I never claimed to be an expert in Karate. Further, I was responding to the notion that there were 70+ grappling abilities within Karate and TKD.

In TKD there is easily 70+ grappling techniques, from wrist-locks, arm-bars, releases from holds, sweeps, takedowns etc.

Pretty hard to learn grappling without sparring as well.

Not really, depends on what you mean by 'grappling' and 'sparring'.

Most people's first experience with Bjj was in the UFC. Royce did plenty of striking in that. Same applies to the Gracie in Action films. Again, plenty of striking. There's also this;

Enjoy.

This video certainly highlights why GJJ is not a striking art. Oh and if you try to get up like that at 8:55 and you will get kicked in the head, I expected more from a ground fighting art.

 

[Danny T]

Or that I simply misread your post. Also if you read my response, I respected your experience in Karate. I simply said that I'm skeptical that you learned all of that in the arts described. If you did, good for you.
Still waiting for the names or websites of those schools you trained at.

Again you are unable to or simply refuse to say you were incorrect.
Ok you misread causing you to be incorrect in your understanding of what I wrote which cause the discussion to be invalid.

"...respected your experience in Karate."
No what you did was write a left handed comment about having gone to some random dojos and that learning throwing being normal is dubious at best.

And you want proof.


Once again there is a disparity in our definitions.

This was back when there was no such thing as web sites/pages. Approx 20 years prior. Yes believe it or not we old guys did train back then. No internet and no you tube so you probably won’t find anything on these ‘random’ dojos. The instructors have moved on or retired.


71 & 72 Iberia Karate under Sensei Ernie Fournet – retired in 2000 I believe

73-74 Wichita Falls Karate- Sensei Munroe Murcer – past away around 2004

75-76 Jacksonville Tae Kwon Do – Master Jong Kim (If I remember correctly) ???

In the Iberia Karate school we did some kata but there was more emphasis on fitness and conditioning, attack and counter drills. Falls, rolls, throws, takedowns and sparring every 3 or 4 classes.

In the Wichita Falls Karate school we did more kata and some drilling, standing grappling, locking, tripping, throwing, and getting back to your feet. Lots of sparring seems it was every class we did some sparring.

At Jacksonville TKD there was a lot of stretching and kicking but every class began with a warm-up of rolls and getting back to your feet drills. Not a lot of sparring but for the higher ranks. We also did trips, sweeps and throws every few classes in some form.

Anyway I’m sorry (for you) your training didn’t have grappling or throws in it for you may have gotten a better understanding of bunkai and what the movements to positions mean and how to apply them. Not that I am any good at it in Karate. However, I feel I have more respect for it due to having a different perspective than you.

All the best in your journey.

 

[Hanzou]

In TKD there is easily 70+ grappling techniques, from wrist-locks, arm-bars, releases from holds, sweeps, takedowns etc.

Well at least you admit to it.

Not really, depends on what you mean by 'grappling' and 'sparring'.

I mean grappling and sparring.

This video certainly highlights why GJJ is not a striking art.

Who said that Gjj/Bjj was a striking art?

Oh and if you try to get up like that at 8:55 and you will get kicked in the head, I expected more from a ground fighting art.

Yeah, Royce attempted a kick to the head at 9:18, and Rorion showed exactly how it would be blocked by the elbow/forearm.

Thanks for playing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Really? You actually believe that you can keep someone's arm extended simply by grabbing their wrist?

You seem to be under the impression that the arm will be extended for an extended period of time (see what I did there). Can you keep their arm extended for 5 minutes - not likely, can you keep their arm extended for the second or two it takes you to perform a throw - not a problem.

I think grabbing someone's wrist while they're trying to punch you in the face or body is extremely difficult.

Since you have very limited experience with blocking and little knowledge of martial arts in general I am not surprised you think that.

It is also extremely difficult to control a person's entire body with one arm.

Have you not seen any Aikido video ever?

Of course I'm talking to someone who think they can punch and kick their way out of side control and the mount, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Of course I am talking to someone that thinks grappling beats striking in every situation and based on the fact that you think the striking in the video you posted is good doesn't surprise me either.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I mean grappling and sparring.

Doesn't answer the question.

Who said that Gjj/Bjj was a striking art?

No one does, especially not based on that video.

Yeah, Royce attempted a kick to the head at 9:18, and Rorion showed exactly how it would be blocked by the elbow/forearm.

Thanks for playing.

And against a kick with any descent amount of power, blocking head on like that, you would get a broken arm and kicked in the head

 

[Buka]

You guys need to chill. If you were in Dojo and speaking to each other like this - and don't tell me that has nothing to do with it - whoever the hell taught you would probably kick your *** for manners.

 

[K-man]

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exis

Interesting.

It would have been more interesting if you had posted the correct link.
Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

I had read it in the past and I reread it just now. What part did you find interesting, the bit about karate being designed to combat untrained assailants or the bit saying that the grappling in karate is different to what you find in a system designed to compete with others skilled in the same art? Really you are on a losing streak. Everything in that article validates what we have already posted.