Fighting vs Self-Defense vs Martial Arts

[Tony Dismukes]

However I never ever agree with percentages people throw out so the 5% means nothing to me without seeing the date and formulas used to get that 5%. Statistics is great but also easily manipulated to make ones point so I currently am of the belief that 5% is arbitrary at best

The 5% figure is completely pulled out of my *** and is nothing scientific. It's meant to indicate "a very small percentage of cases" rather than anything precise. I don't think there's anyway to determine an exact percentage, but it would probably vary according to the environment and the person and their circumstances.

 

[drewtoby]

Even the one percent, and I would question it is that percentage, where you are being bullied, why would you even consider using a knife? Bullying is a non-life threatening situation. If you suddenly pull a knife you then have to consider appropriate force, not to mention that you have turned an asocial situation into a life and death situation. Potentially you are now the aggressor, especially if any witnesses who didn't see the whole situation develop.

I am quite concerned about your attitude to carrying a knife. I asked you in your thread on what sort of knife to carry why you felt the need to carry a knife at school and it seems that you may now have answered that previously unanswered question. I was bullied at school when I was small and that was in a time when it was acceptable behaviour to have schoolyard fights. I dread to think what would have happened if we were all running round with knives.

As to the few good punches doing the trick, I dispute that. In any asocial fighting scenario and even more so with bullying, the instigator has already decided in his mind that he can defeat you. In the case of bullying that is even more the case as a bully is often physically bigger, hence the expression "pick on someone your own size". In a case of bullying I doubt a few good punches will help at all unless you are well trained in some form of martial art and if that was the situation why would you even consider 'keeping the blade accessible'?
:asian:

A few things are off on this, the first being that bullies are bigger. Sometimes, sometimes not. I don't care: a relentless bully is a relentless bully. I'm just speaking from my experience on this, but the bullies I have encountered tend to back down when it comes to fighting. I never had to fight one, a square up/stare down was enough for them to back off at most. I wish I didn't have to take it that far, but when someone is threatening your life, you can NEVER turn your back on them. That's my idea behind a few punches at most: once they realize you are not as easy as they thought, they will either 1) back off or 2) go all out. Usually it is the first one.

It is for the second case that I advise keeping the blade accessible/in mind (as in coat pocket or what not). I know we are talking bullies here, but you don't know what he/she has on him/her. They are out looking for trouble, so what would possibly keep them from having pepper spray, a knife of their own, a gun, ect. on them? Also, even martial artists can loose an encounter, and even though many here will say "it's just a bully", what makes you so sure they will stop after you're beaten up? After you're knocked out? After you're bleeding and no longer breathing? The fact that "it's a bully" overlooks the plain and simple fact that he/she still has the ability to take your life, to rape you, to kill you, ect. Knives are last ditch tools, and when you are fighting a relentless assaulter, there is a chance you may have to use it. "A fight" bleeds over into self defense/survival when the attacker refuses to stop.

I know many of you will see this as an extreme, so I might as well start my own thread on bullies sooner or later. But the cold hard fact is some bullies are violent people, what makes you think that fighting bullies deserves it's own category? It's the 21st century, I'm a younger guy, and I have a different perception of the world. I grew up listening to bullies setting kids on fire. That and many more of the like.

Now back to my reason, I posted on my thread that I'm unable to avoid walking alone in the dark at night. I don't care about muggers or anything else, I keep a fair stash of cash in my wallet for that. I do care about multiple attackers/assault, however. I plan to use it as a last ditch tool if I decide to get one.

 

[KydeX]

The problem with carrying any kind of weapon is that it just won't be the "last resort ". When someone attacks you, even with bare hands, your not gonna think "I'll keep that knife in my pocket, let's see how it goes first ". When the adrenaline starts pumping, that knife or whatever weapon you're carrying is gonna be the first thing to pop out. And then you might be a killer before you know it. Or you could be disarmed and have the weapon turned against you. In my country the criteria for self defense are pretty strict. Even though my art practices some weapon training, I would never bring one with me.

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[MJS]

We have several threads going on at the moment with arguments about the applicability of various martial arts to self-defense. Some of the disagreement seems to boil down to different ideas about what self-defense means in the first place. I thought I'd toss out some of my own definitions to clarify at least my own statements in those threads and possibly those of some others.

Fighting - covers any situation where two or more people are trying to violently defeat each other. This can occur in a sportive or a street context. The combatants may be armed or unarmed. They may be operating under different sets of rules (even in a non-sportive context). Just a few examples of a fight might be: a MMA bout between two pro fighters, three cops subduing a resisting suspect, a pair of drunks squaring up outside a bar over some verbal offense. Many, many more situations are possible. These different contexts significantly affect what tactics, principles, and techniques are most effective in winning the fight. Nevertheless, there is significant overlap in what works as well.

Not all violent situations are fights. A canny asocial predator will attempt to use surprise, intimidation, or overwhelming force to ensure that there is no fight - that all the violence is directed towards his victim with no resistance.

Most fights are not self-defense, but some are. (None of the examples I listed above would qualify.)

Self-defense - covers the necessary actions and skills to get home at the end of the day unharmed by violence, without any unscheduled stops along the way at the hospital or prison. Some of the relevant factors here include lifestyle, awareness, attitude, de-escalation skills, evasion skills, and understanding of how different types of violence begin.

Most of self-defense does not involve fighting. Sometimes it does, but usually that is an indication that you have either screwed up the other important aspects of self-defense or else gotten really unlucky. If you get into fights on any sort of regular basis and it's not part of your job, you should strongly consider the possibility that you are not just unlucky.

Based on these definitions, fighting and self-defense can be seen as separate circles in a Venn diagram with about 5% of overlap.

Martial arts: For some reason many people like to bring up the derivation of "martial" as evidence that martial arts have something to do with the arts of war. Regardless of the etymology, the overwhelming majority of martial arts have nothing at all to do with war-fighting.

Given the diversity of the martial arts, the best definition I can muster is "a formalized system in a certain historical context for training certain skills, attributes, or techniques in some way related to or derived from methods of violence." This can cover a lot of ground, for example:

• an acrobatic performance art with stylized movements derived from old fighting techniques
• an historical recreation of medieval swordfighting methods
• a system for cultivating certain spiritual or mental attributes through the practice of physical techniques
• a system for unarmed fighting in a civilian context
• and many, many more.

Chris would probably insist that a martial art has a unifying set of principles that tie together its various techniques and training methods. I think it might be overstating the case to say that this is always true. I've seen plenty of martial arts where the principles don't really seem that unified.

Once you understand the nature of fighting, of self-defense, and of a given martial art, then you are in a better place to evaluate how your martial arts training may affect your ability to defend yourself or to win a fight in a given context. Bear in mind that defending yourself and winning a fight are not the same thing. For example, if your training encourages your aggressive nature, then it may help you win a fight. If your training helps you stay calm, it may help you walk away from a fight, which is a much higher form of self-defense.

Nice thread Tony!

Regarding Self Defense and Fighting...I agree with what you wrote. That pretty much is on the same track as my thoughts. Regarding Martial Arts...for every person that you say likes to claim the arts have to do with war, I never hear what they supposedly are for. I mean, if someone says something isn't so, then they should offer up what it is. Of course, IMHO, is there really a right answer...or is it just someones opinion? Interestingly enough, further down, you mention violence, unarmed fighting, to name a few, all of which, IMO, imply what I feel the arts were designed for...fighting and SD. Sure, there're side benefits, but as far as I'm concerned, they're primarily about fighting, either empty hand, with weapons, or both. I think that people get too wrapped up with the wording...art and SD. IMO, they're both interchangeable and both the art/history side as well as the SD/fighting side, can be taught in the same setting.

 

[drewtoby]

The problem with carrying any kind of weapon is that it just won't be the "last resort ". When someone attacks you, even with bare hands, your not gonna think "I'll keep that knife in my pocket, let's see how it goes first ". When the adrenaline starts pumping, that knife or whatever weapon you're carrying is gonna be the first thing to pop out. And then you might be a killer before you know it. Or you could be disarmed and have the weapon turned against you. In my country the criteria for self defense are pretty strict. Even though my art practices some weapon training, I would never bring one with me.

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Good point. It's the whole risk/reward debate, and I'm stuck in the middle right now. On one hand that knife can save your life, on the other it can ruin it, it can do both, or it could do neither if never used or seen (best case scenario). I know I can be opinionated on certain subjects, but I respect everyone's comments and views, and know I'm very inexperienced in comparison to the other members on this site. It's hard when you have a split view of things though, some saying tactical knives, others light/pen, others nothing.

For now I'm going to choose the middle ground of pen/flashlight, I'll post on this in a few days. "Normal" fighting is not my concern, as I do my best to stay out of harms way (and the intoxicated). This is what made me even consider a knife, but I know it's still a possibility (no matter how slim). I'll see how I feel when I get used to the light and pen.

 

[MJS]

Great thread, thanks for starting it! I have to play devil's advocate on two things you said though:



True for the most part. However, getting home at the end of the day and staying out of prison are conflicting goals at times. Sometimes you need to use excessive force to stop the offender, especially if you think it's likely he/she has a concealed weapon. Sometimes it's necessary to shoot a fleeing offender, especially if it is likely he/she will call for reinforcements. Sometimes you need to be the first to strike, making YOU look like the offender. Sometimes the only defensive tools that will keep you alive are illegal in the county, and/or will scream "premeditated" to the jury. I'm not saying to break the law, but I'm saying survival comes first in any self defense situation. If you find yourself in a self defense situation worrying about the consequences, you have already lost.

Good point. IMO, I think that this is the downfall of some people, as they are probably afraid of using too much force, or looking like they're the aggressor. Any time the topic of the pre emptive strike comes up, you can bet that is a classic example of looking like the aggressor. Sorry, but when the badguy starts advancing towards you, when he draws his hand back to punch you, well, anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to tell who the aggressor is. Sadly, most people only focus on who throws the first punch.

I have a few issues with this statement. First off, winning a fight is equivalent to many assault situations. Second, training aggressive nature does not mean you will stay and fight. It means that you learn to use adrenalin to your advantage, and make use of strikes instead of restraining techniques. This is the only form of self defense when it comes to multiple opponents. If you don't go crazy rattling off strikes in an attempt to escape, you will loose. I say learning both calmness and aggression is the most beneficial.

Agreed!

 

[MJS]

I would say that the consequences are part of survival. Let's take an example. Suppose you are assaulted by an unarmed bully intent on knocking your teeth out. You respond by drawing your knife and cutting his throat. The witnesses aren't clear on who started the fight, so you are convicted of manslaughter and are later shanked in the prison yard by a gang member who was a friend of the bully. Have you really defended yourself?

IMHO, that would be damn foolish. The person, if they must draw the knife, would be better off using it closed, to strike various targets, rather than using it to slash the guys throat, which against an unarmed guy, is, IMO, total excessive force.

 

[K-man]

A few things are off on this, the first being that bullies are bigger. Sometimes, sometimes not. I don't care: a relentless bully is a relentless bully. I'm just speaking from my experience on this, but the bullies I have encountered tend to back down when it comes to fighting. I never had to fight one, a square up/stare down was enough for them to back off at most. I wish I didn't have to take it that far, but when someone is threatening your life, you can NEVER turn your back on them. That's my idea behind a few punches at most: once they realize you are not as easy as they thought, they will either 1) back off or 2) go all out. Usually it is the first one.

As I posted on your new thread ... "One essential prerequisite is the perception, by the bully or by others, of an imbalance of social or physical power."

Bullies do NOT threaten your life. A bully thrives on intimidation.

It is for the second case that I advise keeping the blade accessible/in mind (as in coat pocket or what not). I know we are talking bullies here, but you don't know what he/she has on him/her. They are out looking for trouble, so what would possibly keep them from having pepper spray, a knife of their own, a gun, ect. on them?

Once they are armed it is no longer bullying.

Also, even martial artists can loose an encounter, and even though many here will say "it's just a bully", what makes you so sure they will stop after you're beaten up? After you're knocked out? After you're bleeding and no longer breathing? The fact that "it's a bully" overlooks the plain and simple fact that he/she still has the ability to take your life, to rape you, to kill you, ect.

I'm sorry but this is total hyperbole. Bullies don't attack people and disappear out of their their lives. Bullies are a product of their environment. Bullies are extremely unlikely to rape or kill you. I would say that they are very unlikely to even hurt you badly.

Knives are last ditch tools, and when you are fighting a relentless assaulter, there is a chance you may have to use it. "A fight" bleeds over into self defense/survival when the attacker refuses to stop.

And again we come down to 'reasonable force'. Rather than mouthing off about how you would use a knife, I would be looking for some real self defence training. There you might learn a little about what means of defence you can use and when, unless of course you like the ideas of sharing showers with a lot of tough guys covered in tats who haven't had sex for a couple of years. Rape may well be the result of you pulling your knife.

I know many of you will see this as an extreme, so I might as well start my own thread on bullies sooner or later. But the cold hard fact is some bullies are violent people, what makes you think that fighting bullies deserves it's own category? It's the 21st century, I'm a younger guy, and I have a different perception of the world. I grew up listening to bullies setting kids on fire. That and many more of the like.

And how common would that be?

Now back to my reason, I posted on my thread that I'm unable to avoid walking alone in the dark at night. I don't care about muggers or anything else, I keep a fair stash of cash in my wallet for that. I do care about multiple attackers/assault, however. I plan to use it as a last ditch tool if I decide to get one.

As I said, get yourself some proper self defence training.

:asian:

 

[drewtoby]

:asian:

good points, but again we are taking things to the extreme. kman went on about slitting a bullies throat, and I'm saying in extremely rare cases you may have to. I know that we have use of force laws, which is why I stated if he was relentless it would be life and death. and I am looking for self defense classes/seminars in addition to hapkido for additional views/training. nothing is really black and white to me, I'm talking about that rare exception.

as for campus, I'm glad I had at least something on me today. I had some guy double back as to meet my path, so I doubled back and followed the only other person around. the guy followed me for a minute then walked back to where he was. awareness is key. this happened where about 3 walkways converged, luckily he was not on my walkway.

 

[Instructor]

The only reason to slit someones throat is to kill them, period. It never looks like a defensive wound in court either.

 

[drewtoby]

The only reason to slit someones throat is to kill them, period. It never looks like a defensive wound in court either.

I agree, which us why its a last ditch thing.

I really needed to post disclaimers in my posts that I'm taking things to the extreme, talking about the sociopath bully that will kill and not think twice. I'm not that crazy to slit a bullys throat unless if it is this rare situation and everything else fails. if its a "normal fight" I'm not going to pull it if I have it. I would keep it handy though if I see the situation develop into what I described earlier though.

 

[Coker101]

I'm not disagreeing with you and I sure did not read the entire thread of replies but at the time most these arts were created it would seem like they would encompass all 3 categories to some extent.

Now a days I think they are more separated...especially the martial side of things. Obviously the martial side of these arts dose not apply like back in the day.

I also think there is a very fine line between fighting and defense.

But really I probably just wanted to post something....maybe I'm trying to fit in. I don't know...

 

[colemcm]

I really needed to post disclaimers in my posts that I'm taking things to the extreme, talking about the sociopath bully that will kill and not think twice. I'm not that crazy to slit a bullys throat unless if it is this rare situation and everything else fails. if its a "normal fight" I'm not going to pull it if I have it. I would keep it handy though if I see the situation develop into what I described earlier though.

That's the thing about reflex actions, though; they don't wait for reasonable evaluation. I have a buddy that always used to carry a knife for protection. One night he was leaving work and a guy he worked with jumped him as a prank. Needless to say, my buddy stabbed him. Luckily for him nothing happened and the guy's injuries weren't serious, but that could have easily gone done much worse than it did.

If you want to talk self-defense, I'd probably steer away from focusing on extreme circumstances and deal with things that are more likely to happen to you. You're more likely to have to deal with a knife attack, than you are to USE a knife in a self-defense situation.

 

[Instructor]

That's the thing about reflex actions, though; they don't wait for reasonable evaluation. I have a buddy that always used to carry a knife for protection. One night he was leaving work and a guy he worked with jumped him as a prank. Needless to say, my buddy stabbed him. Luckily for him nothing happened and the guy's injuries weren't serious, but that could have easily gone done much worse than it did.

If you want to talk self-defense, I'd probably steer away from focusing on extreme circumstances and deal with things that are more likely to happen to you. You're more likely to have to deal with a knife attack, than you are to USE a knife in a self-defense situation.

That has been my experience.

 

[K-man]

good points, but again we are taking things to the extreme. kman went on about slitting a bullies throat, and I'm saying in extremely rare cases you may have to. I know that we have use of force laws, which is why I stated if he was relentless it would be life and death. and I am looking for self defense classes/seminars in addition to hapkido for additional views/training. nothing is really black and white to me, I'm talking about that rare exception.

as for campus, I'm glad I had at least something on me today. I had some guy double back as to meet my path, so I doubled back and followed the only other person around. the guy followed me for a minute then walked back to where he was. awareness is key. this happened where about 3 walkways converged, luckily he was not on my walkway.

Did I really say that? It is not something I would normally advocate as it is likely to get you into an awful lot of trouble with the law, not to mention being very messy. Not only that but I wouldn't be using any form of weapon on a bully. There are much better options available to deal with bullies.

So why did the guy double back? Did you make a comment? It makes no sense to me that in a public place, for no reason, a guy would turn and threaten you. Sounds almost paranoid to me.
:asian:

 

[KydeX]

Sounds almost paranoid to me.
:asian:

Even if you're paranoid that doesn't mean that nobody's out to get you

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[K-man]

Even if you're paranoid that doesn't mean that nobody's out to get you

Oh, so very true ... and how appropriate in the current discussion.

 

[drewtoby]

Did I really say that? It is not something I would normally advocate as it is likely to get you into an awful lot of trouble with the law, not to mention being very messy. Not only that but I wouldn't be using any form of weapon on a bully. There are much better options available to deal with bullies.

So why did the guy double back? Did you make a comment? It makes no sense to me that in a public place, for no reason, a guy would turn and threaten you. Sounds almost paranoid to me.
:asian:

I did not say anything, just went with my instincts. I can't explain that well over the internet, I believe this has been established between all of us. I'm not paranoid, but I believe I made the right call with him following me for a minute afterwords. I was not expecting a threat or anything either, perhaps nothing would have happened. But I was not about to put myself in a space to be mugged. The way he was anxiously pacing beforehand as well made me nervous.

Colemcm made two great points as well: even with a knife in your pocket, it becomes almost impossible to access when attacked by someone with a knife. Heck, I even have a hard time grabbing my pen fast for writing/note taking. And that's clipped to my pocket! That and if you do have a knife in an easily accessible place, you will instantly reach for it the moment you are uncomfortable.

It's true I need to focus on more on every day scenarios, I plan to. But it's also good to be prepared for the unexpected. I'm trying to figure out what the best way is, and so far I'm seeing that defensive weapons become distractions too easily. How can you focus on defending yourself if you are so focused on drawing your blade?

If preparing for the unexpected makes me paranoid, I'll be it. I'd rather have bandages on hand from planning than to do without in any scenario.

 

[K-man]

I did not say anything, just went with my instincts. I can't explain that well over the internet, I believe this has been established between all of us. I'm not paranoid, but I believe I made the right call with him following me for a minute afterwords. I was not expecting a threat or anything either, perhaps nothing would have happened. But I was not about to put myself in a space to be mugged. The way he was anxiously pacing beforehand as well made me nervous.

Colemcm made two great points as well: even with a knife in your pocket, it becomes almost impossible to access when attacked by someone with a knife. Heck, I even have a hard time grabbing my pen fast for writing/note taking. And that's clipped to my pocket! That and if you do have a knife in an easily accessible place, you will instantly reach for it the moment you are uncomfortable.

It's true I need to focus on more on every day scenarios, I plan to. But it's also good to be prepared for the unexpected. I'm trying to figure out what the best way is, and so far I'm seeing that defensive weapons become distractions too easily. How can you focus on defending yourself if you are so focused on drawing your blade?

If preparing for the unexpected makes me paranoid, I'll be it. I'd rather have bandages on hand from planning than to do without in any scenario.

I have had the privilege of visiting about 20 countries including America over many years, some on more than one occasion. I have wandered the streets of many foreign towns and cities at all hours of the day or night and I have never carried a weapon. I have crossed the road on several occasions to avoid groups of guys but apart from that I have never felt uncomfortable or threatened. I have never been mugged or robbed. At home, I even survived four years of University without being attacked.

In your few short years you certainly have encountered far more than your share of trouble.
:asian:

 

[drewtoby]

I have had the privilege of visiting about 20 countries including America over many years, some on more than one occasion. I have wandered the streets of many foreign towns and cities at all hours of the day or night and I have never carried a weapon. I have crossed the road on several occasions to avoid groups of guys but apart from that I have never felt uncomfortable or threatened. I have never been mugged or robbed. At home, I even survived four years of University without being attacked.

In your few short years you certainly have encountered far more than your share of trouble.
:asian:

No, I have not. That was the first time I have had to do a "cross the road" incident. I have not been mugged, robbed, ect. I'm just trying to be prepared for if a rare case arrives. Preparedness never hurts.