This might not be shortā¦
I hear a lot of people on these forums talk about how MA isn't about actual fighting, and I find that pretty puzzling. Sure, the arts can make you a better person in a variety of ways, but doesn't the entire concept of martial arts revolve around fighting? Some of the most revered figures in martial arts are revered because of their ability to fight or kill.
Would I have taken the time to read A Book of Five Rings if Musashi wasn't so proficient at killing people? Would I listen to Rickson Gracie's philosophy if he wasn't such a master in beating people up? Would I learn from an instructor that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? I'm forced to answer "no" to all three of those questions.
What do you think? How important is fighting (or the ability to fight) in the martial arts?
Let's start simpleā¦
"FIghting" means very different things to different people, and to different systems.
How important it is, or whether it's important at all, is largely dependant on the definition in the context, and the context of the system itself, as well as the direction of the instructor/head of the system itself. In other words, it could be almost everything, or completely irrelevant and unimportant, and anywhere in-between.
Which leads us to the actual issueā¦ what are you defining as "martial arts"? Going through the thread, there's a lot said that have a large number of exceptionsā¦ if you only have a narrow application of the term (i.e. only systems that deal with what you consider "fighting" to be), then seeing anything beyond that is going to be rather difficult to understandā¦ which is what we have hereā¦ again.
Oh, andā¦ that's what you think Gorin no Sho is aboutā¦? Haā¦ no.
No, I consider any conflict between individuals or groups as fighting. Sporting events certainly qualify, but so does someone attacking someone else in a bar or a pub, or someone attacking someone else in "da streetz".
Any conflict? Really? I had an argument with a co-workerā¦ that was a conflictā¦ does that match your definition of "fighting"?
And you do know that not all martial arts deal with a modern context, yeah? Or even the same contexts as you're bringing up here, even when they do deal with modern forms?
Defense is part of fighting.
It can beā¦ it can also be part of escape, or evasion/avoidance tacticsā¦
Well I would argue that one learns Iaido to know how to better use (or fight with) the sword.
Yeahā¦ no, not so muchā¦ of course, that'll depend on the student themselvesā¦ but it's not really the idea of Iaidoā¦
I agree with those who assert that self defense is not fighting. But, I also think that some people think they're learning to fight but are not. Some think they're learning self defense, but are instead learning to perform perfect kata. Some think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set.
What do you think kata are about, out of interest? And, to follow that up, would you class BJJ in the same vein as you describe the people who think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set?
I think people are misunderstanding the question of the thread. I'm not asking how important fighting is to individual practitioners, I'm asking how important fighting is to the arts themselves. I.e. if you remove the fighting component from the arts, are they still "martial arts" or something else entirely?
Depends on the artā¦
Compare Goju Ryu to Tae Bo. One has a fighting component, the other doesn't.
You could argue that both have "fighting components", as they both feature combative techniquesā¦ but I'm guessing you don't feel that the way that Tae Bo is presented lends itself to combative application, yeah? Is that your distinction between having and not having a "fighting component"?
Yeah, its aerobics, not martial arts. My point is that no one in a Tae Bo class is talking about punching or kicking someone in the face. However, that conversation is occurring in the Goju Ryu dojo. In fact, just about everything you do in that dojo is learning how to become more efficient and better at doing damage to someone.
Actually, on some of the advertising, there were a number of "soccer moms" who spoke about their Tae Bo training as giving them the confidence to know that they could defend themselvesā¦ and yeah, targeting (to strike to the right height/angle) is sometimes covered in Tae Boā¦ and no, there's a fair bit in a dojo that might have little to do with being "more efficient and better at doing damage to someone", at least directlyā¦
Soā¦ yeahā¦ that whole thing was not really rightā¦
Which is why I find it strange that some don't view "fighting" as an important component of their art.
Look at the art itselfā¦ that really should be the first port of callā¦ and you seem to have skipped itā¦
Not sure that I wouldā¦ particularly about the "start with honour" thingā¦ but I can also think of a number of systems that didn't start with "fighting".. .
Yep!
One learns iaijutsu to better their fighting with a sword, among other things.
That will depend on the system, and instructor, as well as student, of courseā¦ I meanā¦ I train Iai (you could call it "jutsu" or "do", I just call it "Iai"ā¦ there's really little to no difference), and while I'm constantly conscious of the application of the sword, ensuring that the actions are combatively correct, and so forth, I don't do it to better my fighting with a swordā¦ don't see much point in that, honestlyā¦
One learns iaido to perfect their personality.
Again, it'll dependā¦ on a fair amountā¦
The definition of fighting I gave is the English definition of the word.
Yeahā¦ not so much. It was you interpretation of what you feel the definition of the word isā¦
So how exactly is Iaido a martial art?
That will depend on your definition of a martial art (we'll get to the troublesome "dictionary" definition in a bitā¦), but for me, a martial art is a codified and formalised set of skills, methods, and applications based on or around combative or combatively themed actions and specific contexts. And, in that sense, how is it not a martial art?
I mean, I can perfect my personality by learning a tea ceremony.
Yeahā¦ but not in the same way, in the same context, with the same application, the same mentality, or anything elseā¦ there is a fair amount of cross-over, of course, but you're missing the point.
The dictionary's definition of Martial Art;
martial art
noun
: any one of several forms of fighting and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sports
Martial art - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Right. Here's the problem with dictionary definitionsā¦ they are designed to offer a basic, un-nuanced, and largely generalised overview, often devoid of specific context, to give an introduction to someone wanting a grasp of a term. They are never exhaustive, and, when it comes to things like this, generalised to the point of inaccuracy. To be frank, I don't agree with the definition givenā¦ it's a popular-media answer, not a genuine understanding.
In other words, don't look to that when dealing with people who actually know the topic.
Oxford.
Definition of fight in English:
verb (past and past participle fought /fÉĖt/)
1 [no object] Take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons:
Again, the problem with dictionary definitionsā¦ well, we just said that. Here's the test for youā¦ can you think of applications of the term/word that's being "defined" which do not fit within the definition given? In this example, can you think of an application of the term "fight" that doesn't involve physical blows or the use of weapons? How about a verbal "fight"? "Fight" against a disease? "Fight" to recover from surgery? There's a sports team referred to as the "Fighting Irish"ā¦ does that mean they bring weapons onto the field each game? "Fight" for control, say, of a company? Or a car?
Uh what? I'm saying that I wouldn't consider Iaido or the tea ceremony martial arts because they develop your "personality", not fighting ability.
Yeahā¦ maybe a wider viewpoint could help you with thatā¦
Self defense, combat sports, etc. (i.e. pretty much the entirety of martial arts) fits perfectly into that definition of "fight".
Just a point, that's hardly "pretty much the entirety of martial arts" thereā¦ I train in a number of systems, none of which are combat sports, and "self defence" is only a modern part of one. Again, perhaps a wider viewpoint could helpā¦
see we are playing around with a lot of really vague concepts. Iaido is still swinging a sword around. Boxing can help develop personality and the tea ceremony is supposed to prepare your mind to better kill people.
No, that's not what Cha no Yu is supposed to prepare your mind forā¦
Wouldn't that be a pretty broad application though? Sure you can develop a better personality from boxing, but that isn't its primary purpose. Boxing's training is designed to make you a better boxer period. Developing a good personality from training is a side effect, not the goal.
So, to follow your argument there, if boxing is designed to make you a better boxer (I'd agreeā¦ what that means is up for debate, of course), then why does it not follow that Iaido training is designed to make you a better Iaidoka? Why is "fighter" part of it? Just because you can't see past that part of your image of what martial arts are?
Just like getting tapped out constantly in Bjj makes you a better person because it breaks down your ego. However, that isn't the primary goal of Bjj training, or tapping out, its merely a side effect of it.
A potential side-effect, maybeā¦ but the aim is going to be dependant on a range of things, such as the school itself, the instructor, and so on.
Actually its not vague at all. Boxing itself is a martial art. If you're practicing boxing without the fighting components then you're not doing a martial art, you're doing an activity derived from a martial art.
Just like Tae Bo.
Yeahā¦ that brings us back to the question of what you consider the "fighting components"ā¦
Bjj fits the definition of martial art;
So I would say yes.
How so? Because of the sports consideration/criteria? Or because of the idea that it's about "fighting"ā¦ which, if you're relying on your dictionary definitions, it doesn't fit, as it doesn't use weapons or blowsā¦ Just wanting to figure out what criteria you're actually applying here.
So in your martial arts class you're learning how to lock your windows and board up your house?
I'd ask for my money back.
Of course you would.
In all seriousness, you know what I'm talking about. Let's stop with the semantic games shall we?
No, the issue is that definitions are important, so getting to how words and terms are being employed is vitalā¦ keeping it vague doesn't help, so the semantic argument is quite importantā¦ your entire OP and this thread rest upon them.
Also opponent is a synonym for enemy.
No, it's really not. Your opponent in a tennis match isn't your enemy.
No, self defense is considered an aspect of the martial arts.
It can be (I'd argue against the validity of that claim in many, if not most cases, but that's another argument). It isn't necessarily.
As for someone from a self defense background performing well in the UFC; Nearly all the base arts of MMA (Bjj, TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.) state that they offer self defense to their practitioners.
Yeah, and low-fat ice-cream can claim it's good for youā¦ but an apple's probably better. Get what I'm saying here?
I'm also sure that he would say that he is able to defend himself because of his training in Kyokushin. Which is exactly what the definition is saying; Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts.
No, what you've shown there is that the ability to physically defend yourself in a physical confrontation can be aided by training in a martial art, such as Kyokushin. That's allā¦ trying to make it more than that is a logical fallacyā¦ post hoc ergo propter hocā¦
Isn't "fight back skill" simply another way to say "self defines"?
No, not necessarily. It might be part of it, but not definitely.
Anyway, I have yet to run across a martial art that doesn't prop itself up as a method of self defense.
Kyudo.
Iaido.
Sumo.
Kendo.
Most Koryu (I could list here for days, but you'd get bored, and you wouldn't have heard of 99% of themā¦).
Many approaches to Taiji.
Fencing.
Jogo de Pau.
There's a small list for you.
