How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

"Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts."

Fight back skill sets are an attribute of many of the martial arts and these same skills can be utilized in some self-defense situations.

Isn't "fight back skill" simply another way to say "self defense"?

Anyway, I have yet to run across a martial art that doesn't prop itself up as a method of self defense.

 

[elder999]

Uh what? I'm saying that I wouldn't consider Iaido or the tea ceremony martial arts because they develop your "personality", not fighting ability.

Consider then.

This webpage has a bio of the Takeyuki Hidefusa Miura, grandmaster of the Jikishin kai, student of the 18th grandmaster of Muso-jikiden eishin ryu, and present grandmaster of one line of eishin-ryu. A man recognized throughout the world (of such things, anyway) and by the Japanese government, as a superlative master of iaido.
'
As near as I can tell, he's never been in a duel, a fight or even a "sparring match" in his entire life.

How "important is fighting" to him, then? Is what he does "martial art?"

I

 

[drop bear]

Is rugby a martial art?

it includes fighting.

 

[Danny T]

[QUOTE="Hanzou]Isn't "fight back skill" simply another way to say "self defense"?

Anyway, I have yet to run across a martial art that doesn't prop itself up as a method of self defense.[/QUOTE]
Unless they are being utilized in a non self defense action.
There is much more to self defense than fighting.
I've stated in the past fighting can be a form of self defense but not all fighting is self defense and not all self-defense is fighting.

Is running a martial art? No, however running in the proper situation is a form of self defense.

Is swimming a martial art? No. However swimming skills in the proper situation is a form of self-defense.

Is defensive driving, evasive driving, or tactical driving a martial art? No, however it is self-defense.

Is verbal and body language communication a martial art? No, however it is a major element in certain self-defense situations.

Is conflict resolution a martial art? No, however it is a major part of self-defense.

Do you understand what I'm saying or should I continue with examples of self defense that has nothing to do with fighting.

 

[K-man]

Actually re-reading the definition, it says that martial arts are "widely practiced as sports". So what's your issue exactly? In either case, the definition never stated that ALL martial arts are sports, and Goju Ryu fits just fine within the definition provided.

You see, I would say that that definition is incorrect. It is a layman's perception of the martial arts. I would suggest looking at a list of martial arts to see how many of them are purely sport (eg boxing), predominantly sport (eg Judo) or not sport (eg Krav) and you will find the majority are not sport.
( List of martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia )

So you are correct in claiming that martial arts are widely practised as sports but it is a far cry from suggesting that even most martial arts are practised as sports. Certainly some martial arts have a competitive aspect but in many cases that is a minor one. All should include testing but that, depending on definition, is not necessarily fighting.

I'm also sure that he would say that he is able to defend himself because of his training in Kyokushin. Which is exactly what the definition is saying; Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts.

I'm not denying for a minute that a martial artist of any persuasion can use their training to defend themselves. But defending yourself physically is not necessarily the same as self defence. If you are in a pub situation and an arguement ensues and develops into a physical fight, you can argue that you were just defending yourself. If it is subsequently demonstrated by witnesses or CCTV that the fight was avoidable it is not self defence. Unless self defence is taught specifically it is not part of normal training and again, that is not to say it can't be included in normal training. So I would claim that the ability to defend yourself in an altercation is an attribute of martial art training, self defence is not, unless it is specifically part of the training.

self defence

The protection of one's person or property against some injury attempted by another.

Self-defense is a defense to certain criminal charges as well as to some civil claims. Under both Criminal Law andTort Law, self-defense is commonly asserted in cases of Homicide, Assault and Battery, and other crimes involvingthe attempted use of violence against an individual. Statutory and case law governing self-defense is generally the same in tort and criminal law.
Self-Defense legal definition of Self-Defense

 

[Cirdan]

We should all get together here at MT and make the ultimate dictionary since we spend so much time debating the ACTUAL meaning of our precious favourite words.

 

[Zero]

We should all get together here at MT and make the ultimate dictionary since we spend so much time debating the ACTUAL meaning of our precious favourite words.

Ha!! It would be the longest book in the making, I can't see consensus being reached anytime soon on even one term or word.

 

[K-man]

We should all get together here at MT and make the ultimate dictionary since we spend so much time debating the ACTUAL meaning of our precious favourite words.

What a good idea. Could we perhaps start with consensus.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The dictionary's definition of Martial Art;

martial art
noun
: any one of several forms of fighting and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sports

Martial art - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

The bolded part of that definition defines fighting as what is used in a sporting contest.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Uh what? I'm saying that I wouldn't consider Iaido or the tea ceremony martial arts because they develop your "personality", not fighting ability.

That would kind of depend on what's in the tea.

 

[Chris Parker]

This might not be short…

I hear a lot of people on these forums talk about how MA isn't about actual fighting, and I find that pretty puzzling. Sure, the arts can make you a better person in a variety of ways, but doesn't the entire concept of martial arts revolve around fighting? Some of the most revered figures in martial arts are revered because of their ability to fight or kill.

Would I have taken the time to read A Book of Five Rings if Musashi wasn't so proficient at killing people? Would I listen to Rickson Gracie's philosophy if he wasn't such a master in beating people up? Would I learn from an instructor that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? I'm forced to answer "no" to all three of those questions.

What do you think? How important is fighting (or the ability to fight) in the martial arts?

Let's start simple…

"FIghting" means very different things to different people, and to different systems.

How important it is, or whether it's important at all, is largely dependant on the definition in the context, and the context of the system itself, as well as the direction of the instructor/head of the system itself. In other words, it could be almost everything, or completely irrelevant and unimportant, and anywhere in-between.

Which leads us to the actual issue… what are you defining as "martial arts"? Going through the thread, there's a lot said that have a large number of exceptions… if you only have a narrow application of the term (i.e. only systems that deal with what you consider "fighting" to be), then seeing anything beyond that is going to be rather difficult to understand… which is what we have here… again.

Oh, and… that's what you think Gorin no Sho is about…? Ha… no.

No, I consider any conflict between individuals or groups as fighting. Sporting events certainly qualify, but so does someone attacking someone else in a bar or a pub, or someone attacking someone else in "da streetz".

Any conflict? Really? I had an argument with a co-worker… that was a conflict… does that match your definition of "fighting"?

And you do know that not all martial arts deal with a modern context, yeah? Or even the same contexts as you're bringing up here, even when they do deal with modern forms?

Defense is part of fighting.

It can be… it can also be part of escape, or evasion/avoidance tactics…

Well I would argue that one learns Iaido to know how to better use (or fight with) the sword.

Yeah… no, not so much… of course, that'll depend on the student themselves… but it's not really the idea of Iaido…

I agree with those who assert that self defense is not fighting. But, I also think that some people think they're learning to fight but are not. Some think they're learning self defense, but are instead learning to perform perfect kata. Some think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set.

What do you think kata are about, out of interest? And, to follow that up, would you class BJJ in the same vein as you describe the people who think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set?

I think people are misunderstanding the question of the thread. I'm not asking how important fighting is to individual practitioners, I'm asking how important fighting is to the arts themselves. I.e. if you remove the fighting component from the arts, are they still "martial arts" or something else entirely?

Depends on the art…

Compare Goju Ryu to Tae Bo. One has a fighting component, the other doesn't.

You could argue that both have "fighting components", as they both feature combative techniques… but I'm guessing you don't feel that the way that Tae Bo is presented lends itself to combative application, yeah? Is that your distinction between having and not having a "fighting component"?

Yeah, its aerobics, not martial arts. My point is that no one in a Tae Bo class is talking about punching or kicking someone in the face. However, that conversation is occurring in the Goju Ryu dojo. In fact, just about everything you do in that dojo is learning how to become more efficient and better at doing damage to someone.

Actually, on some of the advertising, there were a number of "soccer moms" who spoke about their Tae Bo training as giving them the confidence to know that they could defend themselves… and yeah, targeting (to strike to the right height/angle) is sometimes covered in Tae Bo… and no, there's a fair bit in a dojo that might have little to do with being "more efficient and better at doing damage to someone", at least directly…

So… yeah… that whole thing was not really right…

Which is why I find it strange that some don't view "fighting" as an important component of their art.

Look at the art itself… that really should be the first port of call… and you seem to have skipped it…

Agreed.

Not sure that I would… particularly about the "start with honour" thing… but I can also think of a number of systems that didn't start with "fighting".. .

You'd be wrong, though.

Yep!

One learns iaijutsu to better their fighting with a sword, among other things.

That will depend on the system, and instructor, as well as student, of course… I mean… I train Iai (you could call it "jutsu" or "do", I just call it "Iai"… there's really little to no difference), and while I'm constantly conscious of the application of the sword, ensuring that the actions are combatively correct, and so forth, I don't do it to better my fighting with a sword… don't see much point in that, honestly…

One learns iaido to perfect their personality.

Again, it'll depend… on a fair amount…

The definition of fighting I gave is the English definition of the word.

Yeah… not so much. It was you interpretation of what you feel the definition of the word is…

So how exactly is Iaido a martial art?

That will depend on your definition of a martial art (we'll get to the troublesome "dictionary" definition in a bit…), but for me, a martial art is a codified and formalised set of skills, methods, and applications based on or around combative or combatively themed actions and specific contexts. And, in that sense, how is it not a martial art?

I mean, I can perfect my personality by learning a tea ceremony.

Yeah… but not in the same way, in the same context, with the same application, the same mentality, or anything else… there is a fair amount of cross-over, of course, but you're missing the point.

The dictionary's definition of Martial Art;

martial art
noun
: any one of several forms of fighting and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sports

Martial art - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Right. Here's the problem with dictionary definitions… they are designed to offer a basic, un-nuanced, and largely generalised overview, often devoid of specific context, to give an introduction to someone wanting a grasp of a term. They are never exhaustive, and, when it comes to things like this, generalised to the point of inaccuracy. To be frank, I don't agree with the definition given… it's a popular-media answer, not a genuine understanding.

In other words, don't look to that when dealing with people who actually know the topic.

Oxford.

Definition of fight in English:

verb (past and past participle fought /fɔːt/)

1 [no object] Take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons:

Again, the problem with dictionary definitions… well, we just said that. Here's the test for you… can you think of applications of the term/word that's being "defined" which do not fit within the definition given? In this example, can you think of an application of the term "fight" that doesn't involve physical blows or the use of weapons? How about a verbal "fight"? "Fight" against a disease? "Fight" to recover from surgery? There's a sports team referred to as the "Fighting Irish"… does that mean they bring weapons onto the field each game? "Fight" for control, say, of a company? Or a car?

Uh what? I'm saying that I wouldn't consider Iaido or the tea ceremony martial arts because they develop your "personality", not fighting ability.

Yeah… maybe a wider viewpoint could help you with that…

Self defense, combat sports, etc. (i.e. pretty much the entirety of martial arts) fits perfectly into that definition of "fight".

Just a point, that's hardly "pretty much the entirety of martial arts" there… I train in a number of systems, none of which are combat sports, and "self defence" is only a modern part of one. Again, perhaps a wider viewpoint could help…

see we are playing around with a lot of really vague concepts. Iaido is still swinging a sword around. Boxing can help develop personality and the tea ceremony is supposed to prepare your mind to better kill people.

No, that's not what Cha no Yu is supposed to prepare your mind for…

Wouldn't that be a pretty broad application though? Sure you can develop a better personality from boxing, but that isn't its primary purpose. Boxing's training is designed to make you a better boxer period. Developing a good personality from training is a side effect, not the goal.

So, to follow your argument there, if boxing is designed to make you a better boxer (I'd agree… what that means is up for debate, of course), then why does it not follow that Iaido training is designed to make you a better Iaidoka? Why is "fighter" part of it? Just because you can't see past that part of your image of what martial arts are?

Just like getting tapped out constantly in Bjj makes you a better person because it breaks down your ego. However, that isn't the primary goal of Bjj training, or tapping out, its merely a side effect of it.

A potential side-effect, maybe… but the aim is going to be dependant on a range of things, such as the school itself, the instructor, and so on.

Actually its not vague at all. Boxing itself is a martial art. If you're practicing boxing without the fighting components then you're not doing a martial art, you're doing an activity derived from a martial art.

Just like Tae Bo.

Yeah… that brings us back to the question of what you consider the "fighting components"…

Bjj fits the definition of martial art;

So I would say yes.

How so? Because of the sports consideration/criteria? Or because of the idea that it's about "fighting"… which, if you're relying on your dictionary definitions, it doesn't fit, as it doesn't use weapons or blows… Just wanting to figure out what criteria you're actually applying here.

So in your martial arts class you're learning how to lock your windows and board up your house?

I'd ask for my money back.

Of course you would.

In all seriousness, you know what I'm talking about. Let's stop with the semantic games shall we?

No, the issue is that definitions are important, so getting to how words and terms are being employed is vital… keeping it vague doesn't help, so the semantic argument is quite important… your entire OP and this thread rest upon them.

Also opponent is a synonym for enemy.

No, it's really not. Your opponent in a tennis match isn't your enemy.

No, self defense is considered an aspect of the martial arts.

It can be (I'd argue against the validity of that claim in many, if not most cases, but that's another argument). It isn't necessarily.

As for someone from a self defense background performing well in the UFC; Nearly all the base arts of MMA (Bjj, TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.) state that they offer self defense to their practitioners.

Yeah, and low-fat ice-cream can claim it's good for you… but an apple's probably better. Get what I'm saying here?

I'm also sure that he would say that he is able to defend himself because of his training in Kyokushin. Which is exactly what the definition is saying; Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts.

No, what you've shown there is that the ability to physically defend yourself in a physical confrontation can be aided by training in a martial art, such as Kyokushin. That's all… trying to make it more than that is a logical fallacy… post hoc ergo propter hoc…

Isn't "fight back skill" simply another way to say "self defines"?

No, not necessarily. It might be part of it, but not definitely.

Anyway, I have yet to run across a martial art that doesn't prop itself up as a method of self defense.

Kyudo.
Iaido.
Sumo.
Kendo.
Most Koryu (I could list here for days, but you'd get bored, and you wouldn't have heard of 99% of them…).
Many approaches to Taiji.
Fencing.
Jogo de Pau.


There's a small list for you.

 

[Buka]

Does anyone see the irony - that maybe the only group of guys in the whole world who can't agree on the definition of fighting are on a Martial Arts forum?

We all be bananas.

 

[Hanzou]

Consider then.

This webpage has a bio of the Takeyuki Hidefusa Miura, grandmaster of the Jikishin kai, student of the 18th grandmaster of Muso-jikiden eishin ryu, and present grandmaster of one line of eishin-ryu. A man recognized throughout the world (of such things, anyway) and by the Japanese government, as a superlative master of iaido.
'
As near as I can tell, he's never been in a duel, a fight or even a "sparring match" in his entire life.

How "important is fighting" to him, then? Is what he does "martial art?"

I

I don't know. Maybe you should ask him?

I thought we already established that Iaido wasn't MA....

 

[Cirdan]

I find it more ironic that people who know the arts are bigger than words try to define them in a clean cut way in order to provide simple answers for lazy closed minds.

 

[Zero]

I find it more ironic that people who know the arts are bigger than words try to define them in a clean cut way in order to provide simple answers for lazy closed minds.

Lazy, closed minds, that could well be the problem : )

 

[tshadowchaser]

Martial - war
war - conflict/fighting
Yes a martial art is about fighting but there is so much more involved then just fighting. Self improvement in mental and physical and maybe spiritual development is also involved. Awareness of surroundings and learning to "read" others is included.
A person prepares for war in more ways then just learning to fight and a war is not all about fighting there are many other things involved including psychological .
so are martial arts all about fighting yes and no depending on the field of study

 

[elder999]

"Is running a martial art? No, however running in the proper situation is a form of self defense.

Is swimming a martial art? No. However swimming skills in the proper situation is a form of self-defense.

Actually, sujutsu,, or tosuijutsu-swimming in armor-is a "martial art."

 

[elder999]

I don't know. Maybe you should ask him?
I thought we already established that Iaido wasn't MA....

No, we only established that a martial art-like iaido-isn't necessarily about "fighting," and certainly doesn't have "fighting" as part of its regular practice.

Of course, given the way you've expressed yourself here, the very idea that fighting isn't important to it (rather than the intention and....a phrase I frequently use: mindset, as Chris pointed out) makes it "not a martial art." ..well, you know what some of us say about "thoughts?."

(The following is, of course, not at all safe for work-but the first 17 seconds are, and they're all that really apply.)

Note: "multi quote" function might have a bug, or it might be my big thumbs.....

 

[Hanzou]

You could argue that both have "fighting components", as they both feature combative techniques… but I'm guessing you don't feel that the way that Tae Bo is presented lends itself to combative application, yeah? Is that your distinction between having and not having a "fighting component"?

Actually Tae Bo doesn't feature fighting components, since it doesn't teach you how to kick or punch properly. The purpose behind the kicking and punching in Tae Bo is purely for exercise purposes.

Goju training completely revolves around those concepts. Everything you do is to teach you how to kick and punch properly.

So, to follow your argument there, if boxing is designed to make you a better boxer (I'd agree… what that means is up for debate, of course), then why does it not follow that Iaido training is designed to make you a better Iaidoka? Why is "fighter" part of it? Just because you can't see past that part of your image of what martial arts are?

Boxers are fighters. So if the goal is to make you a better boxer, the goal is to make you a better fighter by default.

How so? Because of the sports consideration/criteria? Or because of the idea that it's about "fighting"… which, if you're relying on your dictionary definitions, it doesn't fit, as it doesn't use weapons or blows… Just wanting to figure out what criteria you're actually applying here.

Actually it does fit, since physical struggle is included within the definition of fighting, and traditional forms of Bjj have strikes/blows within the system.

There's a small list for you.

Those are some very rare martial arts. I'm mainly talking about the more common/popular martial arts.

 

[Hanzou]

Is rugby a martial art?

it includes fighting.

So does Baseball, Football, Soccer, Hockey, etc.

None of them are martial arts.