How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Danny T]

Actually, sujutsu,, or tosuijutsu-swimming in armor-is a "martial art.

I stand corrected. Goes to show there are many martial arts and some are unknown to many of us. Thank you elder999.

 

[elder999]

I stand corrected. Goes to show there are many martial arts and some are unknown to many of us. Thank you elder999.

You're welcome.

Funnily enough, "fighting" isn't important to suijutsu at all...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is rugby a martial art?

it includes fighting.

My original BJJ instructor (who is also a Muay Thai practitioner and an MMA competitor) played rugby and was emphatic that he did count it as a martial art.

 

[Hanzou]

Stances in karate are used for grappling, not for sparring or strengthening the legs. You made remarks about training stances that were a waste of time. And your understanding of kata hasn't changed despite 100s of pages of posts with people trying to explain to you what kata is really about. You don't want to learn, you just want to push your own view, which in the case of kata, is shallow and deeply flawed. Kata is nothing to do with technique improvement ... absolutely nothing.

You got any video examples of this grappling outside of demonstration purposes?

In your humble opinion.

I can punch a bag and jump rope all day, doesn't mean I'm boxing.

So you would rather keep the discussion vague rather than specific? What a clever strategy!

That discussion was about martial art schools (particularly MAs associated with MMA) considering themselves places where one can learn self defense. Kyudo's stance on self defense doesn't mean a whole lot in that discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

What I said was "you can learn to box without actually boxing." There's a difference between what I said, and what you've found "interesting."

Agreed. So what point are you trying to make here? My point is that you can do the exercises derived from boxing, but you're not doing the martial art of boxing unless you're actually boxing.

At any rate, I trained someone who'd had facial reconstruction and other cranial surgery. They couldn't get hit in the head, so no "actual boxing" for them. They did, however, learn to box.

Okay.

 

[elder999]

My original BJJ instructor (who is also a Muay Thai practitioner and an MMA competitor) played rugby and was emphatic that he did count it as a martial art.

I played lacrosse.

Definitely a martial art.

 

[elder999]

Agreed. So what point are you trying to make here? My point is that you can do the exercises derived from boxing, but you're not doing the martial art of boxing unless you're actually boxing.



Okay.

I'd disagree:you're doing the martial art of boxing, but you're not actually boxing.

Granted, you're not a boxer, unless you actually box-but you can train in the martial art of boxing without being a boxer, just as you can train in the martial arts of the samurai, without actually being one......or cutting down anyone with a sword.

There are, in fact, several forms of sparring in actual boxing training that are not "fighting."

In Thailand, in most real muay thai gyms, they don't "free spar" at all, for whatever that's worth to you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I played lacrosse.

Definitely a martial art.

Especially if you played the original form of the game!

 

[drop bear]

You got any video examples of this grappling outside of demonstration purposes?



I can punch a bag and jump rope all day, doesn't mean I'm boxing.



That discussion was about martial art schools (particularly MAs associated with MMA) considering themselves places where one can learn self defense. Kyudo's stance on self defense doesn't mean a whole lot in that discussion.

i will have a chat to my karate guy. I think they used to do takedowns in comps back in the day.

so there might be some out thete

 

[drop bear]

So does Baseball, Football, Soccer, Hockey, etc.

None of them are martial arts.

by your definition?

for me i would be open to the idea of pretty much anybody calling themselves a martial art.

but i am more specific about whether that martial art is any good.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the term 'martial art' has two words in it, the other being 'art'. So a 'martial art' can also be defined as an art form derived from fighting techniques.

 

[Hanzou]

by your definition?

By common sense.

You're training in baseball for example to hit or catch a ball across a field and score points for your team. You're not training in baseball to crack someone across the head with a baseball bat.

Boxing's goal on the other hand is to punch someone in the face and the body until that person is knocked unconscious. The training you perform in boxing is to become more efficient at knocking someone else out.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd disagree:you're doing the martial art of boxing, but you're not actually boxing.

Granted, you're not a boxer, unless you actually box-but you can train in the martial art of boxing without being a boxer, just as you can train in the martial arts of the samurai, without actually being one......or cutting down anyone with a sword.

There are, in fact, several forms of sparring in actual boxing training that are not "fighting."

In Thailand, in most real muay thai gyms, they don't "free spar" at all, for whatever that's worth to you.

Why exactly would someone learn boxing if their goal isn't to actually box? And when I say box, I'm not saying just in competition, i mean that they intend at some point to possibly use their boxing skills to defend themselves. That really goes for all martial arts in general. I simply don't buy the notion that someone would join a martial art school with no intention of ever fighting with those skills. There are cheaper and more efficient ways to get in shape or improve your personality than doing Karate or Bjj for example.

 

[K-man]

You got any video examples of this grappling outside of demonstration purposes?

I couldn't be bothered looking for anything for you any more. You don't accept any other opinion but your own so why would I waste time? You want it, you find it.

That discussion was about martial art schools (particularly MAs associated with MMA) considering themselves places where one can learn self defense. Kyudo's stance on self defense doesn't mean a whole lot in that discussion.

Again you have selective memory and have changed the parameters. There is absolutely nothing in your OP about martial art schools, absolutely nothing about MMA and absolutely nothing about self defence.

To jog your memory your OP follows.

I hear a lot of people on these forums talk about how MA isn't about actual fighting, and I find that pretty puzzling. Sure, the arts can make you a better person in a variety of ways, but doesn't the entire concept of martial arts revolve around fighting? Some of the most revered figures in martial arts are revered because of their ability to fight or kill.

Would I have taken the time to read A Book of Five Rings if Musashi wasn't so proficient at killing people? Would I listen to Rickson Gracie's philosophy if he wasn't such a master in beating people up? Would I learn from an instructor that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? I'm forced to answer "no" to all three of those questions.

What do you think? How important is fighting (or the ability to fight) in the martial arts?

Now I'm over this thread because you don't want to do anything but push your own agenda. I'll try Elder's thread instead, where the parameters are defined.

 

[elder999]

By common sense.

Boxing's goal on the other hand is to punch someone in the face, and to train you to become very efficient at punching someone in the face.

Actually, given boxing's real goal, it might be better to say you "train to become efficient at punching someone," as well as evading being punched.

And body shots usually rule over face shots, given the dynamics.....

 

[elder999]

That really goes for all martial arts in general. I simply don't buy the notion that someone would join a martial art school with no intention of ever fighting with those skills. There are cheaper and more efficient ways to get in shape or improve your personality than doing Karate or Bjj for example.

They might do it for cultural reasons......they might do it because their whole family does it......or because their father teaches them, and they like it........or because they just like it.........or because they might someday have to defend themselves, and knowing how against the possible eventuality-much like the pistol I wear, but hope to never have to use-is better than not.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to take note that there is generally no "free sparring" in muay thai gyms in Thailand..

 

[Hanzou]

I couldn't be bothered looking for anything for you any more. You don't accept any other opinion but your own so why would I waste time? You want it, you find it.

You're the one telling me that karate is some sort of grappling art, yet I have to see any grappling in it outside some demonstrations by a couple of individuals. If grappling in Karate is as prevalent as you say it is, where is it?

Again you have selective memory and have changed the parameters. There is absolutely nothing in your OP about martial art schools, absolutely nothing about MMA and absolutely nothing about self defence.

To jog your memory your OP follows.

Read posts #59 and #73.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why exactly would someone learn boxing if their goal isn't to actually box? And when I say box, I'm not saying just in competition, i mean that they intend at some point to possibly use their boxing skills to defend themselves. That really goes for all martial arts in general. I simply don't buy the notion that someone would join a martial art school with no intention of ever fighting with those skills. There are cheaper and more efficient ways to get in shape or improve your personality than doing Karate or Bjj for example.

I go to the range (on average) once a week and shoot (on average) a couple hundred rounds. By your logic, I intend to go shoot someone.

The truth is that, just like my unarmed martial arts, it's something I really hope I never need to use again.

You can say you don't buy it, but that's the truth of it.

Honestly, if I had a student that gave me reason to believe that they intended to use their training (as opposed to being prepared to do so, if absolutely necessary) I'd think at least twice about training them further.

 

[Hanzou]

They might do it for cultural reasons......they might do it because their whole family does it......or because their father teaches them, and they like it........or because they just like it.........or because they might[ someday have to defend themselves, and knowing how against the possible eventuality-much like the pistol I wear, but hope too never have to use-is better than not.

None of those reasons really go against the idea that someone really only joins a martial art because they're trying to improve their fighting ability. Now certainly other things matter as well, but clearly fighting would be the primary reason.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to take note that there is generally no "free sparring" in muay thai gyms in Thailand..

Really? There's tons of YT videos showing exactly that.

 

[Hanzou]

I go to the range (on average) once a week and shoot (on average) a couple hundred rounds. By your logic, I intend to go shoot someone.

Why else would you be improving your aim with a gun?

The truth is that, just like my unarmed martial arts, it's something I really hope I never need to use again.

Yet you're training yourself just in case you have to. I'm not seeing where the disagreement is with my statements above.

You can say you don't buy it, but that's the truth of it.

Honestly, if I had a student that gave me reason to believe that they intended to use their training (as opposed to being prepared to do so, if absolutely necessary) I'd think at least twice about training them further.

Isn't that just semantics? Isn't preparation itself (training) showing a certain level of intent?