How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Steve]

So by this definition any system that is not widely practised as a sport is not a martial art but anything involving fighting is, as long as it is widely practised as a sport. Hmm! That's strange. I no longer practise a martial art by this definition.

Now 'Self Defence' is a martial art according to this definition but 'self defence' doesn't actually exist. Nobody from a self defence background has ever rocked up to the UFC as far as I'm aware.

I was under the impression that self defence was the legal term used to justify the violence your perpetrated in defending yourself, your family and friends or your property. Interesting that it is now a bone fide martial art. For those who have never seen 'real' self defence in action, here is a bit from the self defence world championships.

whatnmakes that real and mma not real?

 

[K-man]

whatnmakes that real and mma not real?

What makes what real and where did MMA even cop a mention?

The only reference to MMA in the entire thread is in the post below.

I practiced Keysi to be proficient in street-fighting, and now I'm gravitating toward Thai kickboxing, BJJ and boxing as a foundation for my desire to pursue the sport of Mixed Martial Arts.

 

[Steve]

What makes what real and where did MMA even cop a mention?

The only reference to MMA in the entire thread is in the post below.

Okay. What makes that real and anything else not real? Why is that real self defense?


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[K-man]

What is "that"?

 

[Steve]

What is "that"?

You're example of real self defense, in the video you posted. Why are you being coy?


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[K-man]

Not being coy. I honestly had no idea what you were talking about.

If you are going to quote me don't change the context. I put the real in quotation marks .... 'real'. That indicates irony or a different meaning to the usual.

My reason for displaying the video of the International Self Defence Championships is because I consider that an oxymoron, yet by the dictionary definition it is a martial art.

 

[drop bear]

Of course by adding the extra word you did, you have changed the whole meaning. Do you agree that there are martial arts and there is martial sport and that there is a small overlap?

not really. I think the definition would be as limiting as hanzus fighting and non fighting martial arts.

but i know guys who do kyokashin.

 

[elder999]

but i know guys who do kyokashin.

So do I....

 

[drop bear]

Actually its not vague at all. Boxing itself is a martial art. If you're practicing boxing without the fighting components then you're not doing a martial art, you're doing an activity derived from a martial art.

Just like Tae Bo.

so if you box but don't compete?

is sparring fighting?
is competing without striking a fight? It is certainly not the term grapplers use.

 

[Hanzou]

So by this definition any system that is not widely practised as a sport is not a martial art but anything involving fighting is, as long as it is widely practised as a sport. Hmm! That's strange. I no longer practise a martial art by this definition.

No, what the definition is saying is that the majority of martial arts practiced today are practiced as and are generally considered sports. It isn't saying that ALL martial arts are sports, or practiced as such.

Now 'Self Defence' is a martial art according to this definition but 'self defence' doesn't actually exist. Nobody from a self defence background has ever rocked up to the UFC as far as I'm aware.

No, self defense is considered an aspect of the martial arts.

As for someone from a self defense background performing well in the UFC; Nearly all the base arts of MMA (Bjj, TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.) state that they offer self defense to their practitioners.

 

[K-man]

not really. I think the definition would be as limiting as hanzus fighting and non fighting martial arts.

but i know guys who do kyokashin.

So what is Kyokushin? I would consider it from it's origins to be a martial art but for many of its practitioners it is a martial sport, just as could be said for Shotokan or Goju Kai. Therefore it is one that is in the overlap.

In each of those styles of karate, if you are going to compete then you will have to spar to obtain the skill set you need for the arena you are competing in. If you aren't going to compete but you still wish to train in any of the three named styles your focus will be different. Because it is part of the training you will still spar according to the system you are training but I would suggest that that type of sparring doesn't have a lot to do with the major focus your training and it has little to do with any fighting you would find on the street.

Remember that fighting and non-fighting are subject to definition. Once you throw testing into the equation it all gets mixed up, hence the debate. Reality would suggest that we are all much closer than would appear on the surface of the discussion. The arguement only comes through the definition.

 

[Hanzou]

so if you box but don't compete?

Are you still punching people in the face? Then you're still performing the fighting components, even if you're not competing.

is sparring fighting?

Depends on the sparring.

is competing without striking a fight? It is certainly not the term grapplers use.

Yes, since not every fight involves nor requires striking.

 

[K-man]

No, what the definition is saying is that the majority of martial arts practiced today are practiced as and are generally considered sports. It isn't saying that ALL martial arts are sports, or practiced as such.


No, self defense is considered an aspect of the martial arts.

As for someone from a self defense background performing well in the UFC; Nearly all the base arts of MMA (Bjj, TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, etc.) state that they offer self defense to their practitioners.

Now you have qualified your definition. The definition you provided doesn't mention "majority" and says they "are widely practised as sports", nothing to do with "generally considered".

Now we have had much discussion on what is and what isn't self defence. I think is is absolutely ludicrous to claim that the people training in MMA have come from a self defence background. Many come from a traditional background but very few schools teach self defence. So is self defence an aspect of martial arts? Certainly not always and certainly much less than you are giving it credit for.

The dictionary's definition of Martial Art;

martial art
noun
: any one of several forms of fighting and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sports

Martial art - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Steve]

Not being coy. I honestly had no idea what you were talking about.

If you are going to quote me don't change the context. I put the real in quotation marks .... 'real'. That indicates irony or a different meaning to the usual.

My reason for displaying the video of the International Self Defence Championships is because I consider that an oxymoron, yet by the dictionary definition it is a martial art.

Oh for Petes sake. I thought it was a simp,e question, in context. You said something about a video you posted being "real self defense." I was curious what distinguishes that from any other sport, ie MMA, which you are adamant is not self defense, real or otherwise.

Had you explained your comment instead of being coy, we could have saved a little time.

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[Hanzou]

Now you have qualified your definition. The definition you provided doesn't mention "majority" and says they "are widely practised as sports", nothing to do with "generally considered".

The term "widely" means generally considered. They're generally considered as such because the majority of people who practice martial arts practice them as sports.

Now we have had much discussion on what is and what isn't self defence. I think is is absolutely ludicrous to claim that the people training in MMA have come from a self defence background. Many come from a traditional background but very few schools teach self defence. So is self defence an aspect of martial arts? Certainly not always and certainly much less than you are giving it credit for.

You think its ludicrous to claim that Karate dojos, Muay Thai gyms, Bjj schools, and TKD dojangs advertise themselves as places where one can learn self defense? They most certainly do. Additionally, many MMA gyms advertise themselves as places to learn self defense as well. If that's their belief, who am I to argue?

 

[K-man]

Oh for Petes sake. I thought it was a simp,e question, in context. You said something about a video you posted being "real self defense." I was curious what distinguishes that from any other sport, ie MMA, which you are adamant is not self defense, real or otherwise.

Had you explained your comment instead of being coy, we could have saved a little time.

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Perhaps if you read my posts carefully you would be so confused. Even now you can't get it right. I posted 'real' self defence, not 'real self defence' and then you have put more of your words as mine in your bit about MMA, which wasn't even part of the discussion.

Why do I have to explain simple statements. I thought English was your first language. I am not being coy and your terminology is offensive.

 

[Steve]

Oh brother.

 

[K-man]

The term "widely" means generally considered. They're generally considered as such because the majority of people who practice martial arts practice them as sports.

Not in any dictionary I've seen. It's your interpretation perhaps but certainly not your definition.

You think its ludicrous to claim that Karate dojos, Muay Thai gyms, Bjj schools, and TKD dojangs advertise themselves as places where one can learn self defense? They most certainly do. Additionally, many MMA gyms advertise themselves as places to learn self defense as well. If that's their belief, who am I to argue?

No, I don't think it ludicrous for any of those schools to advertise teaching or learning self defence if in fact they do provide that training. I'm not going to be going around checking on them any time soon to see if they live up to their advertising. But my comment was In regard to potential cage fighters training MMA and claiming they come from a self defence background. Any bet, if you asked a guy from Kyokushin about his background he will say Kyokushin, not self defence.

 

[Hanzou]

Not in any dictionary I've seen. It's your interpretation perhaps but certainly not your definition.

Actually re-reading the definition, it says that martial arts are "widely practiced as sports". So what's your issue exactly? In either case, the definition never stated that ALL martial arts are sports, and Goju Ryu fits just fine within the definition provided.

No, I don't think it ludicrous for any of those schools to advertise teaching or learning self defence if in fact they do provide that training. I'm not going to be going around checking on them any time soon to see if they live up to their advertising. But my comment was In regard to potential cage fighters training MMA and claiming they come from a self defence background. Any bet, if you asked a guy from Kyokushin about his background he will say Kyokushin, not self defence.

I'm also sure that he would say that he is able to defend himself because of his training in Kyokushin. Which is exactly what the definition is saying; Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts.

 

[Danny T]

"Self defense is an attribute of the martial arts."

Fight back skill sets are an attribute of many of the martial arts and these same skills can be utilized in some self-defense situations.