High Rank and Multiple Arts

[tellner]

Except that people don't get honorary PhDs or MDs. There are DLitt, DLaws(h.c.), DSci, LhD and so on. They are very carefully distinguished from earned degrees. Giving out the latter out of courtesy or for general achievement risks the accreditation of the issuing university. If you get a PhD you have taken graduate classes, done original research to a certain standard, defended your thesis, taken comprehensive exams and so on. If you have the letters M.D. after your name you've spent four years in medical school passing basic and clinical sciences, gotten a comprehensive theoretical and practical education in medicine, done a clerkship and so on. There's a world of difference between that and an h.c. diploma given at Commencement or out of respect for general academic respectability.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you have a good point. And I'm not saying that this sort of recognition ought to happen, just that it does...

I didn't want to take up the space by quoting your entire entry, but I just wanted to say that I think this was a thoughtful and intelligent contribution to this thread.

 

[Flying Crane]

Except that people don't get honorary PhDs or MDs. There are DLitt, DLaws(h.c.), DSci, LhD and so on. They are very carefully distinguished from earned degrees. Giving out the latter out of courtesy or for general achievement risks the accreditation of the issuing university.

Are you sure about this? It seems to me that I've seen reference to Mr. X receiving his honorary Doctorate from Stanford, or something. Maybe I missed the fine print or something, and it was clear that it is not an earned degree and only honorary, but it was still referred to as a doctorate...

I dunno, I was just caught by surprise by your comment here.

And I agree with what you are saying in the main, that something like an honorary degree, esp. an honorary MD should be very clearly separated from an earned MD so that the recipient of the honorary degree doesn't try to practice medicine or something.

 

[MJS]

I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.

I suppose there are multiple points in this post.

1) The first and foremost question, one that I havent received an answer to, although I did start another thread about it is, Is it possible to attain high rank in multiple arts?

2) Rank isn't what impresses me, its their skill. I could give a rats behind if the person is a 1st degree, 5th degree or 10th degree. Once again...I still stand by my motto of: Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have.

3) What is the fixation with high rank? Seems like if someone doesnt have doubles or a double with a few stripes, they're a) not happy, and b) will think that people won't look up to them as much.

 

[tellner]

Are you sure about this? It seems to me that I've seen reference to Mr. X receiving his honorary Doctorate from Stanford, or something. Maybe I missed the fine print or something, and it was clear that it is not an earned degree and only honorary, but it was still referred to as a doctorate...

Augusto Odone received an honorary doctorate from the University of Stirling in Scotland. I believe it was a Doctor of Science or the UK equivalent. Like other honorary degrees it denotes respect and allows the bearer to use the title "Doctor", but it is not an MD that would allow him to practice medicine.

 

[RevIV]

I suppose there are multiple points in this post.

3) What is the fixation with high rank? Seems like if someone doesnt have doubles or a double with a few stripes, they're a) not happy, and b) will think that people won't look up to them as much.

Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there. People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
Jesse

 

[MJS]

Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there. People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
Jesse

Thats true. People should, unless there is a need for the plastic surgery, just be happy with the way their body is. The same for rank. Be happy with training, learning, spreading the art, etc. When the time is right for another rank, it'll happen.

 

[tellner]

Whats wrong with society? this is the question.. people are not content. look at all the plastic surgery out there. People cannot make themselves happy on their own and that is sad.
Jesse

We have spent half a century being indoctrinated into the Cult of the Things. Happiness comes from owning the Perfect Things. Happiness that comes from within or which is not bought and consumed isn't real

 

[Flying Crane]

Happiness that comes from within or which is not bought and consumed isn't real

A big mug of hot chocolate makes me happy. But then it's gone and I'm sad...

 

[Danjo]

I think that one of the problems with having many high ranks in a myriad of arts is that it can cause one to think that there must be something wrong with a person that doesn't have all of those ranks.

It used to be that if someone had achieved black belt level, it was impressive. Now it's like, "What does that person know? He's only a black belt!"

While certain things are less impressive with the passage of time due to neccessity of the economy (remember when it was impressive to be a millionaire?) or due to diet (in 1960 the average male height in the USA was 5'7" and now it is 5'9"), but certain things shouldn't change.

How long it takes the average person to reach black belt should be pretty consistent over time and if it took three to five years 40 years ago, it should still be that now.

There are always going to be exceptions to this both in terms of how difficult the art is to master and how talented the individual studying the art is, but the average should remain about the same.

Should I be less impressed with my instructor who only has one 8th degree rank after decades in one art than I am with someone claiming several? I think that most people know the answer to that intuitively.

 

[tellner]

"Only one 8th degree black belt"?

Consider, oh, Kyozu Mifune. He only did one martial art. I'm willing to bet that there aren't but five or six people in the world today who are in his class as a martial artist. And on a really good day there might be two or three people on MT with the depth and sophistication to really comprehend what he was doing on those old grainy tapes. Equal him? Don't make me laugh.

 

[dianhsuhe]

There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.

It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts". Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.

I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan. So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least. LOL

One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles. No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.

Cheers

 

[Kacey]

There just is not enough time on Earth to accomplish those ranks with any legitimacy, in my opinion.

It does seem though that many systems do not have criteria required for the higher ranks (techniques, forms, weapons, healing, etc.) it seems more closely related to who you know, friends promoting each other to high ranks in arts based on their "contribution to the martial arts" and general "time in the arts". Masters promoting each other all over the place or creating their own style when they hit the wall in a given style.

I suppose I am just unlucky since I chose an art that has CRITERIA for EVERY dan rank, 1st to 10th dan. So I cannot just go to a tournament and teach for awhile and get promoted- I have to gain competence in new material that is challenging so say the least. LOL

One of our instructors left the org. years ago as a Shodan with 7 years of training and now has the title of "Professor" and a 7th dan that was voted on by a board of directors from different styles. No thank you---I will take the knowledge and honor my instructors and style until there is no more to learn.

Cheers

I agree - there are lots of people trading favors out there, and it gives those who actually earn their rank a bad name.

Is it possible to earn multiple high ranks? I think it's possible - but I think earning, say, multiple 5th dans or higher would require someone to do nothing but train, day and night, in all of the arts in which the person held those ranks - and the person would have to start quite young and stay with it for decades. So while I think it may be possible, I don't think it's particularly likely for most people.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser. I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ. IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.

Thoughts?

Hi folks!
Dear MJS,
The first thing that comes to mind is why do you consider it an "obsession"? If you don't think there is anything wrong with it,then what is the problem?
There are prerequistes that are dictated by various dojos,groups and/or organizations. Those requirements vary from group to group and style to style. We are not all created equal and different individuals base their criteria on their life experienecs and how they veiw a particular person's ability. In my martial arts career, I have dealt with all forms of scenarios regards knowledge and rank. They run the gamut of training and contrary to what some may think,I am definitely not a "rank chaser". A knowledge chaser,definitely, but not a rank chaser!
In regards to having multiple ranks in multiple arts, I cannot speak for others,only for my personal martial arts journey. I literally sacrificed much of what most people consider a "normal" life. I have given numerous hours to the study of the arts. I have studied at no less than 5 different arts at the same time! Training in different dojo/kwoon/dojang/training halls at different locations on different days & nights. to the point i would go to dojos by bus,take the classes there, be literally stranded there,have to sleep on the dojo floor and then take the first bus to get back home to teach or train at another studio that day,afternoon or night. I have collected numerous videos,dvds and other media in a never-ending quest for diverse knowledge, I have interviewed innumerous martial artists for my TV show,most times training with them,taking semionars as well as private lessons from them. I have committed to memory basics,techniques,forms of several systems and sought the "cross references" and "transition actions" than can make these different styles/systems flow with continuity of motion. That was the important thing. When people come into my studio they are immediately taken aback because it looks like part studio,part library,part martial arts museum. To paraphrase a quote "It's just the way I roll!". I am always willing to put my body on the line to learn from instructors,masters and grandmasters of the martial arts & have them demonstrate on me so I can feel how they perform a particular technique and/or action. I look with an observant eye and focus on asking intuitive interogative questions so I can gain more insight into their life and art. Also, having a high IQ and a photographic memory doesn't hurt either!
MJS, I can easily relate to your story of not being a rank chaser. I did not receive my second degree in EPAK until a year before Mr. Parker's death. I tested for my second 2 years after his death and didn't test for my next degree for 7 years. When asked why I didn't go for rank,I would reply "i'm still mourning my instructor". It was at the request of Mrs Parker,Doreen Cogliandro & gilbert Velez that I even tested for my 4th. So, I definitely wasn't jumping up and down waving the toungues of my belt whining "I wanna 'nother stripe!!!".
You want to get mutiple ranks in multiple arts? don't get a house.Don't get a car. don't get a girlfriend/boyfriend. Definitely don't get a husband or wife! forget about having or wanting children. Simply train,study,learn,grow,develop,evolve.
Anyone who really knows me will tell you I'm "passionate" about what I do. It's a nice way of saying I'm a compulsive,obsessed [there's where obsession fits in],fanatic about the arts and what I do...
MJS, you clearly state that it was your active choice not to obtain rank. You clearly state that you are "happy" to be at the rank that you are,but yet you question those who either were not happy to "settle for mediocracy" and continue being recognized for their accomplishments in the arts they study. I constantly inundate myself with martial arts on a daily basis and immerse myself on a daily basis,from literally teaching anywhere from one to seven different on any given day. Today was a slow day,only teaching 2 different arts [tai chi & jujutsu],actually took a 'rest" playing DOA 4" on xbox but if you know me, i'm naming techniques from different style the characters depict,analyzing techniques [check out bayman's lock flow ground drills, especially the prone and then sitting arm break technique] then have a student call me to let me know about the new nova episode "secrets of the samurai sword" on PBS, then after typing here,osaking the tatami so i can practice my batto sword cutting and then checking out WWE and recording it as well as human weapon!
Normal life??What's That?
Welcome to my world.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
PS: I realize you are not "targeting" me,but in later posts you clearly state that I was one of the people you were "thinking" about when you wrote this,So, I responded. As the old adage goes "When you step on the tiger's tail,you wake him up!"

 

[KENPOJOE]

Status. Marketing. Walter Mittyism. Vanity. Been told that that's what it's all about. Unsure of ability and need reassurance. Norms within their groups.

Take your pick.

Hi folks!
Gee Tellner, No positive reasons there. Guess everyone should stay a white belt? What do you think are some of the positive reasons and rationale for those accomplishments and acolades? Perhaps those self same groups are completely sure of an individual's ability and it is they who seek to "reassure" said individual that they,as a governing body for a given art and/or arts,wish to acknowledge that person. Radical concept but it has merit.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.

If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, BEFORE you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You earn that protection, mind—it's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)

The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be treated by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.

Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that that is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.



I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.

Hi folks!
Dear Exile,
An excellent dissertation with many excellent points! I started doing the martial arts at 7 and commercially trained at age 12.So,i've been in an at the arts for awhile. I've never called myself a prodigy nor a genius,let others do so if they desire. As a side note,One time I was speaking with Mr. Parker at a seminar,and I said to him "Mr. Parker,you're a genius!". to which Mr. Parker replied "I don't know about that,Joseph.". When I asked him why he didn't think that way,he replied "Well,Joseph,most geniuses are crazy!" LOL!
So,until i start imitating daffy duck and bouncing off the ceiling...
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

The way I look at it, you can either learn a small number of things in great detail, or a large number of things in broad outline - this applies to quite a few things, rank in MA's among them.

Here's an analogy: if someone learns Latin, they can learn Latinate languages more easily than someone who learns Russian and then wants to learn Spanish. Likewise, someone who earns ranks in MA #1 has learned some general principles that are going to be applicable to MA #2, and #3, and so on - making it easier to earn rank in future arts.

Also, I have seen a fair number of places that will start BB's in any art at their rank in the other art - and continue to advance those BB's whether they learn the lower level material or not, which makes it a lot easier to earn advanced degrees in multiple arts... if you pick subsequent arts with sufficient care.

For myself, I'm not interested in rank in other arts; even in TKD, gaining further rank is a way to increase my knowledge - like a friend of mine who was in a doctoral program that included a master's degree as a signpost of progress toward a Ph. D., rank is something I have earned as a byproduct of my quest for knowledge, rather than something I have sought for its own sake. I would like to train in some other arts, to increase my understanding in general, and to add the things not emphasized in TKD... but at the rate my schedule is filling, it may have to wait until I retire.

Hi folks!
Dear Kacey,
Thank you for touching upon an important ingredient in corralation to studying and obtaining knowledge and rank! An excellent analogy! In regards the the "you are already a blackbelt somewhere else in something else" section, Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum. And because of that I could learn at an accellerated rate,while not waiving learning the required material.
also, excellelent corralation to your academic degrees and accomplishments to you as well!Kudos to you!
As you mention, by your own volition, you do not actively seek rank as such within your given art,You have actively chosen not to obtain rank as an accolade of your progress,which is your perogative. That's the key! You choose to do so, as those who choose to accept/obtain rank chose their path as well.
Thank you for your time and imput,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Ego and money combine to produce this obsession with high rank. I think that a lot of this has to do with low self-esteem. It may seem odd to think of people who are supposed to be at the top of the MA game as having low self-esteem, but look at the various reasons that people take up the arts. Often it is to develop self confidence or to give them a defence against bullying. Hidden in this are the seeds of low self-esteem. They dont always grow into the fully blossoming tree but it happens often enough for us to see many rank chasers.

I, too, have always had a problem with high rank in many arts, but I have come to the conclusion that a lot of this rank is what I call mate's rank or honorary rank. Honorary rank isn't such a problem as it is usually given in recognition for services to the martial arts. Mate's rank is a different kettle of fish. Its that insidious 'gift' one friend gives another, usually qid pro qou. However, you cannot tell the difference between them so it just looks like a person training 30 hours a day.

I have a good rank in one art and that is good enough for me after all the time I've put in.
I'm happy.

Hi folks!
Dear Steel Tiger,
It seems that people can only look this entire scenario as a negative experience and an "obsession" because of folks have "low self esteem" and don't "feel good about themselves"...
Personally, i'm ok with me! I'm happy with me,not estatic,not elated,but,as George Carlin said "moderately neato" with how I am as a human being and a martial artist. In regards to the "quid pro quo" aspect, I've never "exchanged" rank with anyone exactly for that reason! I never wanted to be accused of doing that because of the scenario you mention.
In my instance,I have always mentioned whenever a particular rank in a given art was honorary. It was usually due to myself actively assisting those given instructors to enhance their given art and to encourage them in their endevor as well as actively instructing them and brainstorming with them on their art! I had more than one instructor say to me, you can explain my art better than I myself can!" in regards to elaborating on what a given action,motion can do.
Steel tiger, you do one art and are happy doing that. That is the important thing.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hello, Many of those with lots of ranks in different arts, were most likely promote faster than those who are NOT involve with other arts.

Because of their past experiences' many learn faster too.

Joe lewis got his Black belt in less than 7 months in Okinawa, he kept beating all the Black belts in class.

Many of these people did not do for EGO"S, many want to learn something else that would help there search for building there skills.
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Many of us skills in plumbing,auto repairs,carpentry,electrcity,computers,fishing,diving,basketball,baseball,...plus other degrees from college,banks,special training in all kinds of things...these degrees benifit our growths.

some are just jack of all trades and master of NONE. some do become a master level.

Today many NEW students(they have train in other martial arts) come to experience a new art or different style of martial art...exploring,developling new skills, and wanting to learn more and more....

Learning martial art can be endless.....Just my thoughts here.....Still Learning..........Aloha

Hi folks!
Dear still learning,
Regarding your post, I concur!
In the past, I've heard the old tired line "so, you're a jack of all trades,master of none!" to which I reply, "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"
Thanks for the imput!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

High rank is no problem in one or maybe two arts. But much more than that and you can bet that the person bought it or had it given to him honorarily. If it was honorary, no biggie. It's just a way of showing respect etc. If they bought it, or swapped it for rank in one's own art, then it's pretty dispicable. If someone has pretty high rank in only one art, I will likely listen to what they have to say. If they have a bunch of arts that they claim high rank from, then I listen to them less than I would someone who was low ranked.

Hi folks,
Dear Danjo,
as always, you are entitled to your opinion. Each case has to be looked at individually as opposed to "blanket opinion" [that can border on stereotyping]. The key ingredient is can those individuals perform the actual material and discuss it intelligently with other martial arts? Can they "walk the walk and talk the talk" ? If so, then as the old adage goes,"the proof is in the pudding".
I do concur on the the aspect of "buying rank" though. Never did it,never wanted to do it. Because sooner or later someone will ask you to demonstrate said art! it's that simple. I've addressed honorary rank and the reason and rationale behind it in a previous post.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE