High Rank and Multiple Arts

[Carol]

The clip quoted where Mr. Rebelo says he's celebrating his 38th yaer in the arts is dated October 3 2006 which was exactly one year ago today. Today is October 3, 2007, one year later, this is Mr. Rebelo's 39th year in the arts.

But I thought this thread wasn't supposed to be specifically about Joe Rebelo?

Don't anyone go thinking about pink elephants....

 

[MJS]

This is something, until now, I hadn't given too much thought. Although, it may be possible to climb your way through the ranks and earn a black belt in several systems, I seriously doubt anyone could do that with high ranks. To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure. So, I think there are legitimate reasons that someone might receive high ranks from several people/places.

Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?

So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style. I think someone suggested that these were sort-of honorary degrees. I think that is a good analogy. It represents superior accomplishment. I don't think anyone that gives out these ranks really expects the recipient to start teaching that style. After all, if you are highly regarded in your own art why would you suddenly drop it to teach another? If you were legit, you wouldn't.

After you are recognized the question is what to do you with the recognition. If you are putting it on your letterhead or business cards, you're probably taking it too far. (I'm looking at you Stephan Colbert, D.F.A.) But if you are trying to entice students to you or make a little green, then putting on a website seems OK to me. Or even hanging the certificates around the school seems fine. The first-time-guy-off-the street may think, 'wow, I can learn all this here.' Although he's wrong, if the recognition is legitimate, no one is injured by his mistake. He got a good instructor that is well respected, sounds like a win.

Unless the person is a complete fraud, seeking certificate after certificate without any competence, I'm not sure why we care. There seemed to be some sense that if you where a rank you are somehow constrained to teach only the material that got you that rank and to do otherwise is disrespectful or fraudulent. First, this is based on the erroneous premise that all of Kenpo brand X is the same. And I don't see how knowledge can be so assigned. If I show someone how to pass a guard while wearing Kenpo patches and black belt, but don't have a black in Jujitsu, then I'm being dishonest?!? Does Jeff Speakman have to take off the rank Mr. Parker awarded him because he's doing Kenpo 5.0? Or how about Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA system? Can't showing somebody how you do the technique be enough for others judge if it's crap or not? Do you have to start every lesson or demo with a disclaimer?

I'm reminded of the saying "Just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know."

If I show a guard pass while wearing my 3rd degree belt in Kenpo, nothing wrong with that. What would be wrong is if I claimed to be a 3rd degree in BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc.

 

[MJS]

The clip quoted where Mr. Rebelo says he's celebrating his 38th yaer in the arts is dated October 3 2006 which was exactly one year ago today. Today is October 3, 2007, one year later, this is Mr. Rebelo's 39th year in the arts.

But I thought this thread wasn't supposed to be specifically about Joe Rebelo?

Don't anyone go thinking about pink elephants....

It was my intention to keep it this way, and yes, I'd like it to stay that way. However, there are some people who seem to thrive on bringing Joes name into it. I admit I answered their questions on the subject, but as I said, I'd like it to return to a discussion on high rank and multiple arts.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure.

I think this comment has some real merit. Altho one's "core style" may change as his exposure to different arts changes. I know that while training in each of the arts that I seriously undertook, during that time I thought of little else and sort of figured I was done with the rest. Then a few years later I changed my mind again...

Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?

So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style.

OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless. If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts? You've already proven yourself within your own art. Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.

If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.

 

[MJS]

OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless. If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts? You've already proven yourself within your own art. Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.

If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.

Interesting points. I've never really understood honorary rank. Speaking for myself only, but I want to earn anything I get. How would that look if someone saw that I had rank in an art that I didn't and they asked me to demo something, asked questions about it, etc., only for me to have to turn around and tell them that the rank isn't legit?

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting points. I've never really understood honorary rank. Speaking for myself only, but I want to earn anything I get. How would that look if someone saw that I had rank in an art that I didn't and they asked me to demo something, asked questions about it, etc., only for me to have to turn around and tell them that the rank isn't legit?

exactly.

and even tho many arts have some level of overlap, they are still different. I train in Tracy's kenpo. It has similarties to the later EPAK variations of kenpo, but it's not the same.

So what if someday I achieve 8th dan in Tracys, and I become sort of a pillar in the Kenpo community, someone who has earned a lot of respect from all branches of kenpo and whatnot (I know, it's a stretch, let's just suspend our disbelief for a moment :rofl.

So then some high level EPAK guy, maybe he's a friend of mine, says "hey, I'll recognize you as a high rank in my system, after all, they are similar, cousin styles, if you will".

But they are NOT THE SAME. I don't know his curriculum. I don't know how he does his kata. I don't even know how to do a Neutral Bow stance because we use a Fighting Horse stance. So bestowing rank just because a system has similarities doesn't make any more sense than just giving an "honorary" rank. Either way it's misleading and stupidly pointless, in my opinion.

Why would I not be content with my ranking and status within Tracys? A nod from an EPAK guy, in this manner, should not be necessary for anyone's ego.

 

[John Bishop]

Disclaimer:
I'm not talking about Kenpo Joe in particular.

If you closely examine the majority of people claiming high ranks in multiple systems, it's mostly a mutual back slapping and ego massaging thing that goes on. Some of these guys trade rank certificates like kids trade baseball cards.

And then there's the "Halls of Fame". They've been the big martial arts money maker of the last 15-20 years. More mutual back slapping. I put you in my "Hall of Fame", you pay me $250-$350, and your guests pay $65-$75 to attend your awards presentation. You get to put "Hall of Fame" member on your resume and advertising. And I make $50,000-$100,000 per each "Hall of Fame" event I put on.
And since the "Hall of Fame" owner wants to keep making money, you get nominated in different categories each subsequent year. So your resume and ego enlarge, and his bank account enlarges.

Next we have the "Sokeship Councils" and other diploma mill type organizations. You get the rank you want, (as long as your check doesn't bounce).
Here's just one of hundreds of real life examples:
This gentleman has brown belts in judo and shotokan, and a 3rd degree in Yoshinkan Aikido. He tests for his 4th degree and fails.
Later he's contacted by a "Hall of Fame" group with the great news that he's been nominated to receive a "Hall of Fame" induction. Of course because of the expenses involved in putting on "such a prestigious event", he will have to pay $250.00, and his family and guests will have to pay $75 to attend the ceremony. So he gets his "hall of fame" award (and another the next year).
He's also notified that the "Sokeship Council" of the HOF also want's to promote him. So he pays his $500 promotion fee (1991), and gets promoted to 8th degree in "Aikido Taiho Jutsu" (a non-existing style of aikido), by a board of soke's that does not include any aikido practitioners.
Later he loses interests in this organization, and joins another, which "recognizes" his 8th degree and gives him a matching 8th from their association.
Now he starts thinking that he would really like to get his black belt in judo, since he quit training in judo when he was a brown belt. So he asks his new organization what he needs to do to get his black. They tell him, "send us your resume of martial arts training". He sends in his resume that includes his brown belt in judo, and brown belt in shotokan, and a 8th degree in aikido.
Well this impresses the new association so much that they promote him to 5th degree in judo, and as a added bonus since judo is a offshoot of jujitsu, he gets a 5th degree in jujitsu as well.
Eventually he loses interest with this organization and joins another. So his next goal is to have his "own system recognized". So this new association's board (which also contains no aikido practitioners) promotes him to "10th degree Shodai Soke" of his own aikido system.
So in less then 10 years, without participating in any classes or long term private instruction, he goes from judo brown, shotokan brown, and aikido sandan (3rd degree), to: 5th degree judo, 5th degree jujitsu, and 10th degree aikido.
And theres a lot worse examples out there in ego land.

 

[stone_dragone]

"..So in less then 10 years, without participating in any classes or long term private instruction, he goes from judo brown, shotokan brown, and aikido sandan (3rd degree), to: 5th degree judo, 5th degree jujitsu, and 10th degree aikido..."

I'm surprised that he doesn't claim any rank in "Moneyorder Ryu Checkjutsu."

 

[Carol]

Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:

 

[stone_dragone]

Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:

Not at all.

In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.

 

[Steel Tiger]

OK, now this is where I think it all becomes pointless. If you have achieved justifiably high rank in your art, thru long years of hard training and dedication, what good does it do anyone for your peers to "recognize" your skill by giving you high rank in their arts? You've already proven yourself within your own art. Rank in other arts, even if good intentioned, is a misrepresentation.

If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.

I think this is why Gene Labell did not accept all those offers of rank for services to the martial arts he was offered.

"Judo" Gene is a great example as a counter to the multiple high rank misrepresentation that goes on. Everyone knows his skill, there is no need to keep telling everyone.

 

[Flying Crane]

Everyone knows his skill, there is no need to keep telling everyone.

well now, there's a helluva way to sum it all up...

 

[John Bishop]

Not at all.

In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.

And for a similar amount I'll recognize your sokeship in the sister arts of:

Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Karate
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kung Fu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Tai Chi
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Ninjutsu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kickboxing
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Yoga
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Chi Projection

 

[Carol]

Does this mean I have to give up my sokeships in Rhee Bok Do, Nike-Jutsu, and Kan go Ryu??? :wah:

Not at all.

In fact, for only $350 I will personally recognize your sokeship in Rhee-bok-kan Do Ryu Jutsu.

And for a similar amount I'll recognize your sokeship in the sister arts of:

Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Karate
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kung Fu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Tai Chi
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Ninjutsu
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Kickboxing
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Yoga
Rhee-bok-kan-Do Ryu Chi Projection

Sweet! I'm diversifying! Although, I think I'll pass on the Kickboxing, Yoga, and Chi projection. I'm going to wait on the Tai Chi till a bit later too. It's all because I want to be seen as a serious martial artist and not one in it for sport or mysticism..... :roflmao:

 

[RevIV]

It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo. Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.

I Train with my original teacher out of NY. I know and have worked out with Mr. Rebelo.
Jesse

 

[KempoShaun]

And I apologize for my mis-math issues. I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused. Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today. Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!! Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me. I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art. So, not sure where I'm going with this, but anywho... Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive. I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person. I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue. I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold. As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model. If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.

 

[Carol]

And I apologize for my mis-math issues. I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused. Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today. Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!! Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me. I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art. So, not sure where I'm going with this, but anywho... Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive. I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person. I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue. I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold. As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model. If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.

His influence shows in you Shawn...in your mind, your character, your courage, and your strength. :asian:

 

[KempoGuy06]

I'm curious as to what the obsession is to some people with high rank? Now, there is nothing wrong with having it, but I would think that there would or should be some sort of pre-requisite for it. I don't know...do people want it because they think it'll make others view them differently?

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

Now, for myself, I've never been a rank chaser. I've been a 3rd for a while, and thats fine with me. I cross train in Arnis and BJJ. I have rank in Arnis, but never really had the desire to get any in BJJ. IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.

Thoughts?

I only have a desire to get to black belt in SKK, if i go high great if i dont whatever, and the same goes for other arts id like to study (bjj, akido, hung gar). The only reason I chase rank is because i want to learn more other than that, the belt is used to hold my gi top together. I dont have a need to hold high rank in multiple arts the only reason I want to is because I want to learn as much as possible, but that want would never go any higher than the 4 styles i have listed. I like a lot of style but those are 4 that really hold my interest.

Great choice of topics as always MJS!

B

 

[Danjo]

And I apologize for my mis-math issues. I'm on heavy narcotics, and the old grey matter gets a bit confused. Yes, Mr. Rebelo is celebrating his 39th, not 49th, year in the arts today. Sorry for the confusion, I truly suck with numbers!!! Anyway, I've been at the same rank for almost 11 years, I have no aspirations to advance anytime soon, and as Jesse can tell you, since he sat on the board testing me for my 5th in Prof. Kimo Ferreira's Kempo Jutsu-Kai, I barely deserve to wear any rank with what my illnesses have done to me. I only continue to do so out of respect for my instructor and my deceased father who wanted a son to carry on his art.

You list yourself as "Founder" of your art. So which one is the one your father wanted you to continue with?

Oh, and one note about Sijo Bob Smith's credentials, Joe will be the first to tell you that he didn't always agree with some of the claims Sijo Smith made, but his skill was still impressive. I say this only because Sijo Smith is to busy being DEAD, to respond in person. I'm sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but why can't we seek out the true frauds and expose them, if this witch hunt (Yes Carol, I'm not too far from Salem either as you know) are to continue.

He wrote that stuff while he was still alive. As to his skill level, see the next segment.

I love this board, and have had some amazing experiences with some of the members, and hope to continue to do so in the future, I just think people should workout with people before deciding what rank they should or shouldn't hold.

Well, like was said above, we're not talking about someone's skill per se. Someone could be a champion kickboxer and never train in Karate. Should he be given a tenth degree? High rank usually means something more than mere physical skill.

As for Mr. Rebelo, well, he knows about this thread and will respond shortly, as he's taking his birthday off from the net, but as both my instructor, or the guy who has shared my home with my mother and myself on several occasions, he's an incredible man, and my Martial Arts role model. If I could ever get 1 / 10th of his knowledge, I could be an incredible Martial Artist.

That is all beside the point. My grandmother is one of the sweetest and most generous people I know, should she be ranked in Karate?

 

[SL4Drew]

* * *If your peers from other arts want to recognize your achievements and skill and knowledge, well maybe they can just give you an "outstanding achiever" plaque or something at a dinner event with the local community. But bestowing rank, even if recognzed as honorary, is just pointless in my opinion. And I really don't understand why anyone would even accept it. If I didn't study under someone, in their art, I would never accept rank from them for any reason. What would I do with it? What would it mean to me? Absolutely nothing.

I think you have a good point. And I'm not saying that this sort of recognition ought to happen, just that it does. I think of people like Ed Parker, who probably got piles of these things. I suspect most the time he smiled, nodded, and threw it in the drawer later. I think that even if you disapprove of the award the more polite response is to just accept it and forget about it. But I don't have any problems with something like Gene LeBell's position either.

But the same question can be asked why anyone accepts or gives an honorary Ph.D., M.D., J.D., or M.B.A. I remember the movie Lorenzo' Oil, based somewhat on a true story. At the end the father gets an honorary M.D. (or maybe Ph.D.) for coming up with the treatment for his son's illness. Seemed fitting and an appropriate way to honor him. So, I don't think the problem is necessarily in the award or the receipt, it is how the recipient treats it, as I said before.

The problem John points out is the reason that this practice may not be a good one. It is often rife with abuse. And most of the time high ranks are not only sought out but sought out only to feed an overgrown ego. Martial Arts have so many Halls of Fame that I think it is an utterly meaningless thing. I'm sure there are plenty of legit ones, but the bad ones overwhelm them--most can't tell the difference.

I know that some really care about how high someone's rank is and how many they have. I don't think it's that big a deal, even when it is questionable. In my experience, these people are seen through quickly and the only 'students' they have are those that want the same ego stroking their 'teacher' sought out. Plus, what it takes to be X degree of black varies some much from system to system. It's hard to really judge whether someone deserves the number of stripes they have because in my system maybe they wouldn't deserve it, but maybe in a dozen others it would deserved. I don’t think their high rank waters down mine because it was awarded for different reasons. And then you throw in the fact that not all rank is strictly based on proficiency of performance, it becomes impossible to judge. To put it another way, there is no universal objective standard that under-girds all black belt promotions.

For me the most important question is if the person can teach what he claims to teach. If someone claims to teach self-defense and their students pay for that information, but the material instills a false sense of confidence because its highly ineffective, not only was it fraudulent but now potentially dangerous. Good teachers of low rank are more important than mediocre teachers of high rank. I wish there was a way to assure minimum competence for everyone that teaches, but there isn’t. I think the MA community takes more black eyes from incompetent teachers (whether first black or the founder of their system), than it does from people claiming multiple high ranks.