Very High Rank in Many Arts?!?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the OP, I don't really look at the ranks the instructor holds when I look at a school. Unless I'm actively looking for a school of a specific type, I generally just stick to what's within a certain radius of my home and office, then visit the schools that teach the art I'm interested in. I nearly always look at the blackbelt classes. I don't care what the instructors rank is; do his or her blackbelts look like skilled practitioners who have been received quality instruction? If not, then the instructor loses my respect as an instructor.

I came to my current school by way of kendo, and the kendo blackbelts all looked tremendously solid. I transitioned into taekwondo and hapkido from there and at the time, there was an advanced class that I participated in. Now, the advanced students seem to have settled on two specific days and while those classes aren't billed as advanced, its all the same students.

My GM is 9th dan kumdo (kendo) and hapkido and sixth dan taekwondo. His rank in hapkido didn't impress me: the fact that he was an ROK special forces hapkido instructor did (and still does) His 6th dan in taekwondo didn't impress me: the fact that he was a 1992 Korean National champion did. As for the kendo, I can only say that his swordwork is amazing.

Quality instruction is what I'm after. I'm not in some fanboy competition of 'my instructor outranks your instructor', which seems to be what some people get into. I just want to learn and to teach my own students to the best of my ability.

Daniel

 

[hogstooth]

There are very few legitimate high ranking instructors of several arts. Personally I don't understand how they would have the time. I have studied the same art for 30 yrs and have studied a few others at the same time to get a diversity and find out what else is out there. I usually quit because it just was too hard to train in my art, teach, work, family and try to learn a new art. I was luckier as a kid because I had no other obligations except to train and was able to rank in two other arts then but I couldn't imagine how to do that now unless I won the lottery and quite work. Wow that sound like a plan. I think I'll do that.

 

[MJS]

Personally I don't understand how they would have the time.

Yup, thats a question that I've wondered about myself.

 

[YoungMan]

Three words: home study course.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?

I really think that alot of this shoud be individually based, since people learn at different rates....

For instance, there's no reason why someone couldn't study 2 arts at one time, and achieve a 2nd dan in both arts in around 10 to 12 years time, IMO...

So, going by that logic, if someone were to train in 2 arts at a time, and stop after reaching the 2nd dan level, I would say they could achieve 2nd dan in 6 arts in 30 years...but I will say this about it: I don't think it's entirely realistic to be able to do this. I'm coming up with that just from numbers, so if anyone sees fault, please correct it.

Also, I don't think the person would be very proficient in any of the first arts that were studied, if they had to stop at 2nd dan to start in 2 new arts.

Comments?

 

[Kwanjang]

From my experience it not that uncommon for a student of Korean styles to learn and aquire rank in, lets say, TKD and Hapkido. My very good friend zDom is 2nd dan in CKD TKD and has a Black belt in Moo Sul Kwan HKD. He will tell you-- to truly keep up wiith both is an ardous task. I am not saying it can't be done, but there is only so much time durring the day.

I DO find it laughable when "one" person claims high rank in completely different systems. If the school in question (that offers a myriad of martial arts) has quality instructors that are legitimately trained and certified is one thing.

We had this one guy in our town in 1996 who opened a school. The formal extent of his training was a blu belt in a bastardized version of TKD. In his profound wisdom (sarcacm) he opened his academy and offered a "laundry list" of martial arts he taught. (by the way, I called and checked him out personally...He was teaching the vaious systems out of a book) The symbol for his school was, and I kid you not, a rubix cube. His school died a horrible death- thank God it was a quick one. (scratchin my head) I still don't know whay he used a rubix cube for his school symbol. I have some ideas though

I geuss to him it was very puzzling.

 

[BrandonLucas]

From my experience it not that uncommon for a student of Korean styles to learn and aquire rank in, lets say, TKD and Hapkido. My very good friend zDom is 2nd dan in CKD TKD and has a Black belt in Moo Sul Kwan HKD. He will tell you-- to truly keep up wiith both is an ardous task. I am not saying it can't be done, but there is only so much time durring the day.

I DO find it laughable when "one" person claims high rank in completely different systems. If the school in question (that offers a myriad of martial arts) has quality instructors that are legitimately trained and certified is one thing.

We had this one guy in our town in 1996 who opened a school. The formal extent of his training was a blu belt in a bastardized version of TKD. In his profound wisdom (sarcacm) he opened his academy and offered a "laundry list" of martial arts he taught. (by the way, I called and checked him out personally...He was teaching the vaious systems out of a book) The symbol for his school was, and I kid you not, a rubix cube. His school died a horrible death- thank God it was a quick one. (scratchin my head) I still don't know whay he used a rubix cube for his school symbol. I have some ideas though

I geuss to him it was very puzzling.

The only way I've solved the Rubix Cube is to peel the stickers off and put them back on...basically cheating.

Maybe that was his way of saying that he cheated the arts?

Or maybe it was designed to draw people in asking why the cube was there?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think a lot depends on which arts and how much between the two crosses over.

It also depends on just how much 'mastery' someone wants. For paper and certificate mastery, there are plenty out there who will provide such... for a price.

I think that some of the problem is the perception of some masters, and perhaps some customers, that in order to be qualilfied to teach anything, the master must be some ridiculous dan level in that specific art. Then when they work a few weapon forms into their taekwondo class, they can say that they're qualified because they're 9th dan in whatever art the weapon(s) is associated with.

Daniel

 

[Kwan Jang]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.

Having said that, as far as rank goes, once you have a strong base, it's not really that hard to branch out. My instructors always encouraged us (and often required us) to cross train. I began Jujitsu as a child (DRAJJ) in 1971 until my instructor quit teaching when I was a brown belt (I did go back later and test for first dan black when I was eligible at 18 under a classmate of my original instructor). I then joined a Kenpo school until it closed (it was the seventies) after about a year. Then a school teaching TKD and Hapkido opened and stayed open so I kept training (32 years and counting), but in that school the curriculum kept evolving.

My instructors, KJN Tony Thompson and KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. (partners for nearly 40 years) began as hardcore traditional KMA instructors, but in '78 they began serious study of the FMA's (KJN Ernie is of Phil. decent and Remy Presas convinced him that he should train in the arts of his parent's native culture.) They became some of Remy's earliest American BB's and we all started arnis and the later Inayan and Serrada Escrima. It became mandatory for red belts and above in our schools to study the FMA's at tha point and after over 28 years most of our "old school" guys are certified as FMA guros of various levels.

In 1980, KJN Ernie did an exhibition full contact bout against Benny Urquidez. KJN Ernie had been a medalist at the '77 WTF world championships in full contact TKD (back in the days that ONLY Koreans won gold no matter how badly you beat them. This may sound like sour grapes and KJN Ernie won't say it, but you "old school" guys know what I am talking about) and was close in size to Benny, so we thought "it's all good". KJN Ernie was using TKD and boxing (we'd already made boxing mandatory for red and above and many of us on the Demo Team cross trained at Garden City boxing gym. Several of us competed as amateur boxers, I was 14-0) while Benny was using Muay Thai. Though KJN Ernie did well enough to hold his own pretty well, we started trainig with Benny in MT after that and later with the Fairtex trainers and Javier from AKA among others. Our lower belt base curriculum is at least as much MT as TKD these days.

When the Gracie's first came to the USA, some of the family actually has teaching programs in some of our schools before they opened their own. Needless to say that BJJ and Submission Grappling became part of what our curriculum. Also working with Wally and Leon Jay, we incorperated SCJJ into the curriculum as well (Leon still does seminars at my school and has encouraged me to start a side SCJJ program and though I love and respect the art, there are only so many hours in the day). We basicall phased out the Hapkido in our teaching for the BJJ and the SCJJ, but I reached 5th dan in Hapkido before that.

When Frank Shamrock moved to San Jose, he trained regularly at our headquarters school for roughly 8 years. Most weeks he was working out 2-3 mornings a week and taught the submission grappling and NHB/MMA black belt class on Monday mornings for years. Bob Cook, former UFC fighter and the head MMA coach at American Kickboxing Academy (AKA- who have produced many top UFC champs and contenders) taught the other days and took over when Frank's schedule changed due to other projects. BTW, AKA used to be located in one of our schools and several of it's trainers and staff are BB's from our schools. Many of these guys come over and train mornings at our headquarters school.

KJN Tony and KJN Ernie have always encouraged his students (and "twisted the arms" of his master-level students) to cross train in other systems and bring back what we learned. Often if he liked what he saw enough, we all would be trained in it. This is how I ended up with my teaching credentials in Kenpo and as Tactical trainer.

To amke a REALLY long story short, it is possible to gain legitimate rank in multiple systems if you have a strong base. I have rank in multiple systems and have been offered tsting for high dan ranks in others, but while I respevt those systems and my friends who I have cross trained with, I really have no interest in the rank. I just love to learn, share and grow.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Sorry for the typos and how jumbled my last post was. My wife was talking to me while I was writing.

 

[Kreth]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.

I disagree somewhat. The general public will assume that a 3rd degree black belt *must* be better than a 1st degree, regardless of style.

 

[dragonswordkata]

On the other hand I have seen some dojos that train several different arts like that, but there is a different instructor for each one, that is a high rank for that discipline. I think that is OK.

At our school we teach 3 different styles; but we have 3 different instructors for each style and we make that known when prospective students come in.

 

[Ninebird8]

I have high ranks in three different kung fu styles and Yang tai chi. However, all three of my styles are "bird related": Ying jow eagle claw, Wudan Shaolin Nine Bird, and Southern White crane (with a little long fist thrown in). I have Master rank in Shaolin, Senior instructor/master rank in long fist/white crane, and senior student rank in Ying Jow, but not formal master/instructor level there, as the ranking system in that school has been significantly eased (requirements) in the last few years. My rank in Yang style tai chi is instructor level, as I only have 12 years of that vs. 31 years in kung fu. Note, though, all my training is in kung fu and specifically one type of animal. In traditional Chinese martial arts, you were/are either a Grandmaster (head of a system), Master (direct disciple under that Grandmaster/master), disciple (closed door student), student, and beginner. Sashes/belts were added later. Also, as an indication of true rank, those of us oldtimers who can describe brutal testing of 8-12 hours in one day and barely able to celebrate afterwards can attest to Master in OUCH!!! Seems back then our rank was more quantified by how much pain you could describe before tearing up....LOL!!!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

First off, let me express my opinion that as a school owner and instructor that most people make the mistake that they feel the general public cares about your rank. Most people coming into your school don't care about rank or what championships you have won, they care about what you will do for them or their child. After they are part of your school, they MIGHT be impressed, but IMO it's more of a "my Dad can beat up your Dad"-type of thing.
.....

To make a REALLY long story short, it is possible to gain legitimate rank in multiple systems if you have a strong base. I have rank in multiple systems and have been offered tsting for high dan ranks in others, but while I respevt those systems and my friends who I have cross trained with, I really have no interest in the rank. I just love to learn, share and grow.

I agree with you on the first point; most customers really don't know what the different ranks are. they just see blackbelt and the title, 'master' and assume that you are. I do think that many instructors believe that the customers care a lot more than they do.

Regarding the having rank, or even high rank, what do you think of when you think of high rank? I kind of got the opinion on this thread that people are refering to over 6th in multiple arts, while to me, high rank is 4th to 5th, with anything over that usually being either administrative and/or honorary.

Daniel

 

[Rich Parsons]

I disagree somewhat. The general public will assume that a 3rd degree black belt *must* be better than a 1st degree, regardless of style.

I agree with you assessment.

People browsing the phone book will see Joey over here with a 3 rd degree, and Johnnie over there with a 4th degree, but Bobbie has a 5th degree, and so forth until we get to Stewie who has a 9th degree or what have you.

They will decide to check out the guy that is the close to their house or work and who has the highest rank.

***************

Now I will speak of myself. I have rank in one system and with that rank many would call me a Master and some have. I prefer "Rich" as a mode of address off the mats and on it just a simple "sir", which is returned.

I also have a position in another art. This art has no rank form the family branch I trained in. Other branches have started to give out ranks, but our does not. As my instructor is not able to teach anymore due to a stroke, I would be considered one of the seniors. Also one who is carrying on this particular branch of the style. I have trained with some others and they have also called me Master in this style. I have asked them not to. Not out of fear of what people will think or for people coming to check me out. I hope they do. Maybe they have something to teach me. If not then maybe I can show them something.

So two systems, in 22 years in one and 10 in the other. What people could call senior rank or title or position. How is this possible?

It is possible because they both are FMA's and have similarities that I can over lap between the two even though they have differences that are unique to each style or art.

I have worked out with some guys with decent Judo/(Japanese) Ju-Jitsu skills and rank. Many are surprised at my sensitivity to joint locks and body center. I understand it, and I teach it. Does it mean I have or should have rank in Judo? Not in my opinion. My training is not in those arts. If I went and spent time to get the traiing to understand the similarities and differences and be able to explain them then maybe.

But for me to go learn TKD or TSD or a form of Japanese Karate would not ahve the same learning curve. It would be much more different than similar, in applications and in teaching styles and in approaches. There is nothing wrong with any of the systems I mentioned. Only some would be easier for me to pick up than others would be.


So what constitutes Many?

I'll have one. (1)
I'll have a couple (2)
I'll have a few (* More than two but less than ? *)
I'll have many (* More than ? *)

 

[hogstooth]

I'll ask the question:

If a person has studied for lets say 30 years how many black belts do you think he could earn in different systems> How many could he reach the rank of master in?

I can tell you that as a youth I experimented alot and was able to train in a few arts. The art I started out in and the art I stayed with was Shorin-ryu (Godan) but I also trained in Isshin-ryu, Goju-ryu, Okinawan Kenpo, Kobudo (Nidan, went along with Shorin-ryu, same instructor), Judo and Iaido. But having said that, there is no way I could have ranked BB in all of those in 30 years unless I had a rich father that left me a trust fund and even then I don't think I could or much less have wanted too. I quite most before I could dream of ranking in them. Just too much time and dedication and too many other responsibilities.

As far as becoming a master in several arts, I think it would be very difficult. I can't imagine the dedication it takes to get to a higher level in two arts much less several. I know there are a few that have accomplished this very feet and legitimately. I just think it is a lofty goal for us common folk. :duh:
Hell, it's hard enough just keeping a full time job, a family, teaching and finding some time for hobbies much less trying to juggle another art. Nope too old and too tired.:wah:

 

[Kreth]

I prefer "Rich" as a mode of address off the mats and on it just a simple "sir", which is returned.

I like "Jeff" on and off the mat. I've trained with people from other styles who just fell into "Sensei" or "sir" out of habit, and that's fine. I have a standing rule though. If anyone uses an honorific outside of the dojo, they owe me a beer.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Anyone calling me anything but sheldon or leopard inside my school (unless they are not my student) dose pushups for a long time.

Outside of the school there are only one or two people that use a title when they address me

 

[geezer]

As far as becoming a master in several arts, I think it would be very difficult. I can't imagine the dedication it takes to get to a higher level in two arts much less several. I know there are a few that have accomplished this very feet and legitimately. I just think it is a lofty goal for us common folk. :duh:
Hell, it's hard enough just keeping a full time job, a family, teaching and finding some time for hobbies much less trying to juggle another art. Nope too old and too tired.:wah:

I think you speak for all of us mortals. I came back to the MAs about a year ago after a long layoff, and I'm continuing in the two arts I used to teach: Wing Tsun and Escrima. Honestly, it's taking everything I've got to spare (in cash and time) just to get back to where I was. I hope to achieve that level in another year or so. Sure, I'd like to cross train a bit to broaden my perpective, but with a wife, kids, and job... I'd be nut's to take on anything more. It would just dilute what I'm focusing on now.

To those of you whose ability, finances and life choices permit you to do more...My hat's off to you. As far as multiple high dan ranks go, I remain suspicious. If you've been a world class athlete and devoted decades to the arts, it can happen. If you study closely related arts, or arts that share core concepts, it can happen. And be totally legit.

But on the other hand, it can also happen if you are just a con man trying to sign up students to make more bucks off your McDojo. And that just cheapens the honest achievements of everyone else.