High Rank and Multiple Arts

[Steel Tiger]

I'm not championing what Mr. Rebelo seems to be presenting, but keep in mind that he only lists one single form from each of three different Tai Chi Chuan systems. That is a very limited knowledge of the complete systems. I don't know how someone comes to be a "sifu" with such a limited knowledge of the system's curriculum, but that's for another discussion I guess...

One thing I have noticed about taiji is that lay people tend to think the form is all there is to the art. Normally, I would not suspect someone's motives in listing their knowledge, but I think in this case it is a way of drawing in new students. Just another angle from a school that can teach you everything you wanted to know about martial arts but were afraid to ask.

The claim of sifu annoys me a little. I teach. I've been trying to understand the one art for two decades. I could call myself sifu but I prefer not to (I always feel a little uncomfortable when I called sifu). Maybe this is what it comes down to. It grates on me to see someone, anyone, claiming multiple high ranks, no matter how many. But it annoys me because I will see students with unreal expectations with regard to time and rank.

 

[Flying Crane]

One thing I have noticed about taiji is that lay people tend to think the form is all there is to the art. Normally, I would not suspect someone's motives in listing their knowledge, but I think in this case it is a way of drawing in new students. Just another angle from a school that can teach you everything you wanted to know about martial arts but were afraid to ask.

The claim of sifu annoys me a little. I teach. I've been trying to understand the one art for two decades. I could call myself sifu but I prefer not to (I always feel a little uncomfortable when I called sifu). Maybe this is what it comes down to. It grates on me to see someone, anyone, claiming multiple high ranks, no matter how many. But it annoys me because I will see students with unreal expectations with regard to time and rank.

Yeah, I think I'm with ya on this.

As far as the form goes, I guess I think especially in Tai Chi sometimes a teacher will give his student the nod to teach certain aspects of the art, even if full understanding of the complete art is still lacking. The teacher might say, "OK, you seem to understand the Chen 24 Posture Form pretty well, you can teach THAT to some students if you like." But I think there is an implied limit on that, and the 24 Form is far from the complete Chen system. I personally don't consider this person a Chen Tai Chi Sifu. He's still very much a student himself, with very limited teaching authority.

I sometimes see people list their resume online, and it seems to go on forever, you gotta keep scrolling down and down and down to see it all. They like to list every underbelt rank ever achieved in any system, every seminar they ever took that is even vaguely connected to martial arts, even tho it never lead to anything further, and every trophy they ever won in any tournament, and every famous person they ever shook hands with. It seems like listing every form and every partial art they have ever encountered is just resume padding.

I also understand what you are saying about being called "sifu". I've been training with my sifu for just about 10 years now, and about 2 years ago or so he asked me to begin leading some of the students thru some basic tai chi sword work. I think some of the students have begun to see me as a sifu in my own right, or at least an assistant sifu, but I don't feel like I merit that kind of title yet. I'm just a student struggling with the sword myself, and teaching it helps me focus on the details, and gives my sifu another opportunity to guide me as well when he makes corrections.

Ah well. It's all in how you present yourself. I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply. I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Ah well. It's all in how you present yourself. I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply. I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.

I think this is the crux of the matter.

 

[jus_dann]

nice job!, very well put.
straight to the deep end if you may LOL

Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.

If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, BEFORE you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You earn that protection, mind—it's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)

The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be treated by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.

Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that that is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.



I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.

 

[Yeti]

I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

You just have to know where to look! I'm "lucky" enough to live near a school where the head instructor claims the following:

8th Dan - TKD
8th Dan - Hapkido
8th Dan - Aikido
7th Dan - Judo

Personally, I think it's a load of :bs: but let him claim what he wants to claim. A little checking and it's easy to prove or disprove. It's an ufortunate reality / marketing gimmick. Some folks are impressed by that while others are not. Me?...not so much.

 

[Flying Crane]

there is one thing I always find really funny, and yes, I have actually seen this on websites.

When people list their immensely padded resumes, 8th dan this, 7th dan that, 14th dan the other (many of which are arts that they themselves have "founded"), then, tucked away amongst all those impressively high Dan Grades, there will be "Yellow Belt in Tae Kwon Do", and "Orange Belt in Shotokan", and "Took A Weekend Seminar in Judo", maybe a couple others. OK, now THAT'S impressive...

 

[MJS]

Big question. I've lived my whole professional life in a bitterly hierarchical system, the academic world of big research universities, and I've noticed some scary parallels to the MA world, which might supply at least part of the answer.

If you look at academics, the reason they perceive high rank the way they do is not really salary, or reputation. You don't get that much of a financial kick upward going from Associate to Full Professor, for example. And your reputation in the field is only indirectly associated with your formal rank. It's based much more on your `breakthrough' discoveries, the kind of thing you became known for, in many cases, BEFORE you were promoted to Full. Nor is it simple academic survival: once you make Associate Professor, you typically have tenure and you're safe from harm. (You earn that protection, mind—it's extremely tough to get tenure and plenty of Assistant Profs don't, in the end). So why do people obsessively pursue that rank? (and I speak as one who knows first hand just how obsessive it is...)

The answer is I think applicable not just to the university but to the MA world as well. It's this: when you join the university as a graduate student, you are socialized into a system which does not regard you as fully human; you have to earn treatment as a human being by advancement in the ranks. Get hired in a good dept. on a tenure-track line, that makes you 50% human (and you will be treated by your tenured colleagues as half-human, make no mistake! ) Advance to tenure, and you're now 90% human... but not quite, eh? And that 10% difference is very conspicuous to someone who's grown up in the system. Advance to Full, and, well... now you're a human being. Bear in mind, if you get your first job at age 25, say, you may not make Full until you're in your early 40s, or later. So most of your adult life is learning the cultural currency of a particular ranking system that you've bought into by choosing that way of earning a livelihood, but obviously it's more than that: it's your life-culture, your worldview. I think something similar is going on in the MAs.

Think of a black belt as a Ph.D.; at this point, you're in a sense licensed to explore on your own. You have the basic skills, but still have a reputation to develop if you want respect in that world. And for a lot of people, that kind of respect is just as important as the respect young academics hope for from their peers or senior colleagues. The more you advance in rank, the more you're treated with respect, the more `human' you are. For people who have identified their `life-world' as that of the MAs, gaining that level of respect is probably just as important as it is for a new young faculty member to get acknowledgement of their worth from their older, now comfortably established senior colleagues who have proven themselves through decades of academic combat. I think that that is what the constant pursuit of rank in the MAs is all about.



I've never understood that. But I think some people are biomechanical geniuses, in the same way that certain people launch careers as solo musicians when their age is still in single digits: they're prodigies. They were born to do MAs, and for them, it's like a sponge sucking in water.

You certainly raise some interesting and very good points. One paragraph in particular that really caught my eye was the 4th one down. In a way, IMHO, I think this goes hand in hand with the respect thread I started a while back. It also, IMO, falls into the black belt syndrome, that trap that many seem to fall into. For some reason, when people put on that belt, they think that its an automatic sign that people a) need to respect you, b) people should respect you and c) that by having X number of stripes and/or rank, that it'll mean that people will view you differently.

I still stand by my motto of: Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have.

 

[MJS]

I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:

http://www.kenpojoe.com/

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.

Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely.:ultracool

 

[Seabrook]

The other thing that I've noticed, is people who not only have high rank, but also train in multiple arts and are ranked in them as well! I'm not talking about 1 or 2 arts, I'm talking upwards of 5 or more. How is it physically possible to do all of this, as well as obtain rank?

IMHO, I've always felt its the skill that you have, how well one understands the material and how well you can perform and apply the material, to name a few, that really matters.

Thoughts?

While my primary focus has always been Kenpo, I also have black belts in Black Dragon System Kung Fu, Modern Arnis, and Shorinji-Ryu Karate.

Is it physically possible? You bet, but it takes a LOT of work. At this point in my life, being married, having two daughters, and a very busy schedule, most of my focus is on American Kenpo and Kung Fu.

 

[Yeti]

there is one thing I always find really funny, and yes, I have actually seen this on websites.

When people list their immensely padded resumes, 8th dan this, 7th dan that, 14th dan the other (many of which are arts that they themselves have "founded"), then, tucked away amongst all those impressively high Dan Grades, there will be "Yellow Belt in Tae Kwon Do", and "Orange Belt in Shotokan", and "Took A Weekend Seminar in Judo", maybe a couple others. OK, now THAT'S impressive...

That is SO true!! LOL!

 

[Seabrook]

I agree. I think this is the sort of thing people are talking about here:

http://www.kenpojoe.com/

"Mr. Rebelo Presently holds the following ranks / titles in the martial arts:
8th Degree BLACK BELT (HACHIDAN) in Nindo Ryu Kobujutsu (Title of "Kyoshi")
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Karazenpo Goshinjutsu (MA. Co-Vice Pres)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Chuan Fa/Kempo (Kajukenpo-Pai Lum)[Sigung]
5th Degree BLACK BELT (Associate Professor) in Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate
5th Degree BLACK BELT in David German's T.A.I.(Transitional Action Incorporated)
5th Degree BLACK BELT (GODAN) in Nindo Ryu Atemido
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Gendai Ninjutsu [Taijutsu]
4th Degree BLACK BELT (YODAN) in Nindo Ryu Iaijutsu
1st Degree BLACK BELT (YEEDAN) in Tai Chuan Tao
1st Degree BLACK BELT in Tae Kwon Do
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo Karate [Technical Advisor]
1st Degree BLACK BELT (SHODAN) in Mark Shuey's Canemasters Curriculum
1st Degree/Level BLACK BELT/SASH (Hei-Se) in Shao Choy Hung Kung Fu [Chin Na-5 Animal Style-Chuan Fa]
SIFU (INSTRUCTOR) in Northern Shaolin Praying Mantis [LIU HO {SIX HARMONY}, CHI SHING {SEVEN STAR} & BA FA OR BA BU {EIGHT STEP} KUNG FU/KUO SHU/WU SHU
SIFU in Tai Chi Chuan (Wu's Short 24, Yang's Long 108, and Chen's Short 24 Forms
INSTRUCTOR in American-Filipino Arnis-Escrima-Kali Training System
World Combat Arts Federation Massachusetts Representative
[*]Honorary BLACK SASH Level in Raven Kenpo Jujutsu [Technical Advisor] "

That's a lot of rank to have attained with only one of them listed as honorary.

That is just crazy in my opinion.

And for the record, as per my above post, I hold 1st degree black belts in Kung Fu (1994), Modern Arnis (1991), and Shorinji-Ryu Karate (2001), and I am no longer seeking rank in these systems as I don't have the time nor the desire for higher rank.

My 6th Degree is in American Kenpo Karate.

 

[Seabrook]

I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person. It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.

I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.

Great point Pat.

I concur 100%.

 

[DavidCC]

You just have to know where to look! I'm "lucky" enough to live near a school where the head instructor claims the following:

8th Dan - TKD
8th Dan - Hapkido
8th Dan - Aikido
7th Dan - Judo

Personally, I think it's a load of :bs: but let him claim what he wants to claim. A little checking and it's easy to prove or disprove. It's an ufortunate reality / marketing gimmick. Some folks are impressed by that while others are not. Me?...not so much.

I met a guy recently, he told me he was a 9th Dan in Judo. I was, honestly, skeptical. He seemed very nice and clearly as far I could tell was very good at Judo so I did my best to learn what he was showing me and we had a good time. I went home and looked up the patches on his gi and sure enough it was the legit international judo organization and he was mentioned several times! I found out that Judo ranks are very objective at that level: number of competitions, medals, and number of students who have x number of competition wins etc. But they didn;t have a list of recognized members and ranks, not for free. You can get it but there is a small fee and it is snail mail I think.

 

[tellner]

Let's be real here. Consider Judo which invented the Kyu/Dan system. There have only been 15. Three of them (most ever) were promoted last year. When Kyozu Mifune died in 1965 he was the only Judan in the system. When you look at films of people like him and Toshiro Daigo you realize that almost nobody is able to grasp the subtleties of what they're seeing there. And the level of skill they display in one art? There's a significant lag for the light to get from there to where these self-styled multi-style "masters" stand on their best days.

People like that are real masters. Most of us are barely apprentices, and there are damned few journeymen anymore.

That's from a lifetime of dedication to one art.

Nothing else really needs to be said.

 

[KempoShaun]

Fellow Martial Artists, my name is Shaun Seifer and I have been training in the martial arts for over 25 years, and as a student of Mr. Rebelo since 1996 or 97. In the 11 years I have worked with Joe, he weekly teaches private lessons in Kobujutsu, Shaolin Kempo (Chaun fa/Karazenpo), EPAKK, TAI Kenpo, 3 separate sub styles of Nindo Ryu, Tai Chuan Tao, Taekwondo and 3 Tai Chi Forms (Wu's abstract, Yang long form and Chen style, after learning those he also teaches about 10 Tai Chi weapon forms). Now, let me reiterate that this is what he teaches AT LEAST once a week, and in private lessons, where it is much harder to teach, if, as some of you are suggesting, he didn't truly hold the listed ranks. In addition, Mr. Rebelo teaches seminars worldwide and is often used by the heads of several different arts (My art included), as a technical adviser. One of the things that always amazes me about Joe is that he'll cross reference any and all of the arts and transition into another one without even a blink. This is a man who truly knows his stuff. Mr Rebelo has numerous videos on youtube of him teaching or training in all of the listed arts AT THE SAME TIME, not like some people who go and get a yellow belt here and a green belt here and then decide they are masters. The youtube vids, which are easy to find by using the keyword KENPOJOE or Joe Rebelo, number around the double digit area right now, with hope of having about a hundred up by the beginning of next year. In addition, Mr. Rebelo has, for the last 18 years, been the host of "Martial Arts Today", which is featured on television stations across Massachusetts. He also has about 10 instructional videos out (I was featured in the Han Suki video getting beat up with the applications of the kata!). Insofar as his Tai Chi, I believe it was mentioned that he may know the forms, but not the application (or something like that), well let me tell you, Tai Chi was the most recent art I took up under Sifu Rebelo, seeing as I've been ill for quite a while, and please believe me when I say, he knows the applications (Chin-na, Chuan Fa and Dim mak) and teaches the first two very well, and makes his students show the application for each move to be advanced to the next form. As I write this, from my bed, as I'm severely ill, my one wish was that I could be in New Bedford tomorrow to celebrate my instructor and very good friend's birthday, which will mark his 49th (forty ninth) year in the Martial Arts. In 1996, when I first met Joe in the Martial Arts chat room on AOL, I was extremely skeptical about all his claims to rank, and even after I decided to give him a shot and train exclusively under him, would try and catch him off guard and ask to see a Bagua form here, or a Mantis technique there. I, as well as many from the old MAF clique quickly learned that he wasn't bragging, boasting or inflating his own ego, he was simply one in a million. I have, over the last 11 years, become accustom to going to seminars or tournaments and wind up listening to Joe give a lecture on some obscure form of Mongolian mud wrestling, or how a Klingon Bat'leth can be put to use in dance of death (or some other EPAK reference he'll be mad at me for making fun of), and he ALWAYS has an open door policy that when he is at his studio, and isn't teaching, anyone is welcome to come in and question his credentials and he will demonstrate anything from any of the arts in his resume. It has happened, and the person who came to criticize most times ends up deciding to train with Joe. Now I know this has been a long rant, but I want people to understand, I don't consider myself an expert in the Martial Arts, just someone who wants to learn. Like most of you, seeing Joe's resume makes it seem like a load of BS, but if you believe only one thing I type here today, let it be that "Joe Rebelo is not like the millions of other ********* con artists claiming multiple high ranks to make himself feel good, this guy is for real". So, until you walk through the doors to Rebelo's Kenpo Karate studio, and see Mr. Rebelo perform the material required for any of the ranks he has, or before you talk to the heads of the systems who promoted him to the ranks he holds, for once, lets not immediately assume "Guilty until proven innocent", and let Mr. Rebelo's posts (feel free to look through the forum, there are quite a few), videos (youtube and instructional) and knowledge (Mr. Rebelo invites people to visit him at his school) speak for themselves, not someone who holds a grudge against Joe putting him down, or someone like myself, who couldn't believe anyone could hold so many high ranks in so many arts until I tested him. He's a great instructor, and an even better friend, I just wish everyone could get to train under him at some point. Thank you, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOE!!!!!

 

[jks9199]

As a loose rule, I'll buy someone having several lower-dan or equivalent rankings. For example, my partner has a TKD black belt, as well as her Bando black belt. I know other people with 3 or 4 black belts, but they're all 1st or 2nd degree. That's easy to buy, especially since there are legit programs in some styles that will (with a LOT of hard work; that's about all you're doing) let you earn a reputable black belt in a year or so.

It's even easier to buy when they're kindred arts, like maybe Shotokan and TKD or TKD and hapkido just to name a couple off the top of my head. Where I personally get skeptical is when people claim mid to high level dan rankings in very different styles, like maybe muay thai and aikido (deliberately reaching for a pairing that is as night & day as I can think of). I also get skeptical when someone claims mid to high level rankings in more than one (and often, even in one), and is younger than I am. I've seen 5th/6th degree black belts who weren't old enough to drink in the US... I can't help but be skeptical of that!

But, it really comes down to a simple question: Do you trust what the guy is teaching you? Because it's really impossible to compare ranks across styles, or even within them sometimes!

 

[Danjo]

Fellow Martial Artists, my name is Shaun Seifer and I have been training in the martial arts for over 25 years, and as a student of Mr. Rebelo since 1996 or 97. In the 11 years I have worked with Joe, he weekly teaches private lessons in Kobujutsu, Shaolin Kempo (Chaun fa/Karazenpo), EPAKK, TAI Kenpo, 3 separate sub styles of Nindo Ryu, Tai Chuan Tao, Taekwondo and 3 Tai Chi Forms (Wu's abstract, Yang long form and Chen style, after learning those he also teaches about 10 Tai Chi weapon forms). Now, let me reiterate that this is what he teaches AT LEAST once a week, and in private lessons, where it is much harder to teach, if, as some of you are suggesting, he didn't truly hold the listed ranks. In addition, Mr. Rebelo teaches seminars worldwide and is often used by the heads of several different arts (My art included), as a technical adviser. One of the things that always amazes me about Joe is that he'll cross reference any and all of the arts and transition into another one without even a blink. This is a man who truly knows his stuff. Mr Rebelo has numerous videos on youtube of him teaching or training in all of the listed arts AT THE SAME TIME, not like some people who go and get a yellow belt here and a green belt here and then decide they are masters. The youtube vids, which are easy to find by using the keyword KENPOJOE or Joe Rebelo, number around the double digit area right now, with hope of having about a hundred up by the beginning of next year. In addition, Mr. Rebelo has, for the last 18 years, been the host of "Martial Arts Today", which is featured on television stations across Massachusetts. He also has about 10 instructional videos out (I was featured in the Han Suki video getting beat up with the applications of the kata!). Insofar as his Tai Chi, I believe it was mentioned that he may know the forms, but not the application (or something like that), well let me tell you, Tai Chi was the most recent art I took up under Sifu Rebelo, seeing as I've been ill for quite a while, and please believe me when I say, he knows the applications (Chin-na, Chuan Fa and Dim mak) and teaches the first two very well, and makes his students show the application for each move to be advanced to the next form. As I write this, from my bed, as I'm severely ill, my one wish was that I could be in New Bedford tomorrow to celebrate my instructor and very good friend's birthday, which will mark his 49th (forty ninth) year in the Martial Arts. In 1996, when I first met Joe in the Martial Arts chat room on AOL, I was extremely skeptical about all his claims to rank, and even after I decided to give him a shot and train exclusively under him, would try and catch him off guard and ask to see a Bagua form here, or a Mantis technique there. I, as well as many from the old MAF clique quickly learned that he wasn't bragging, boasting or inflating his own ego, he was simply one in a million. I have, over the last 11 years, become accustom to going to seminars or tournaments and wind up listening to Joe give a lecture on some obscure form of Mongolian mud wrestling, or how a Klingon Bat'leth can be put to use in dance of death (or some other EPAK reference he'll be mad at me for making fun of), and he ALWAYS has an open door policy that when he is at his studio, and isn't teaching, anyone is welcome to come in and question his credentials and he will demonstrate anything from any of the arts in his resume. It has happened, and the person who came to criticize most times ends up deciding to train with Joe. Now I know this has been a long rant, but I want people to understand, I don't consider myself an expert in the Martial Arts, just someone who wants to learn. Like most of you, seeing Joe's resume makes it seem like a load of BS, but if you believe only one thing I type here today, let it be that "Joe Rebelo is not like the millions of other ********* con artists claiming multiple high ranks to make himself feel good, this guy is for real". So, until you walk through the doors to Rebelo's Kenpo Karate studio, and see Mr. Rebelo perform the material required for any of the ranks he has, or before you talk to the heads of the systems who promoted him to the ranks he holds, for once, lets not immediately assume "Guilty until proven innocent", and let Mr. Rebelo's posts (feel free to look through the forum, there are quite a few), videos (youtube and instructional) and knowledge (Mr. Rebelo invites people to visit him at his school) speak for themselves, not someone who holds a grudge against Joe putting him down, or someone like myself, who couldn't believe anyone could hold so many high ranks in so many arts until I tested him. He's a great instructor, and an even better friend, I just wish everyone could get to train under him at some point. Thank you, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY JOE!!!!!

Sigh.

If someone had a 1st degree in Kenpo and one in Judo and one in Aikido. He would, presumably, look like a talented martial artist. If he worked at integrating those disciplines together for several years and added some new tricks here and there, I'm sure he would look impressive to most people watching. However, that's a far cry from what we're talking about here in terms of high rank in all of the listed arts.

The Chinese used to call those that travelled around from village to village performing tricks like breaking and Iron Palm etc. "Village Boxers." They were showmen who would sell booklets and pamphlets to the country bumpkins for a few yen and move on to the next village. When they would see someone else with a trick they didn't have, they'd adopt it to their own skill-set so that the next time they travelled through that area they'd have something new to show.

Very often these Village Boxers would claim high rank and mastery of various forms of Kung Fu and have impressive lineages that they'd rattle off. They would often work in concert with other village boxers and back up each other's stories to lend legitimacy to themselves.

The real masters, i.e., those that dedicated themselves to serious and long study of an art, merely shook their heads at them and laughed when they would come through. The village boxers liked to avoid confrontations with the real masters and would only challenge untrained bumpkins or else plants in the audience.

It's a very old game.

I'm not saying that Mr. Rebelo is one of these modern day village boxers, but his massive claims make him appear to be just that.

 

[KempoShaun]

people who decide to judge people by reading words, well, who are we to judge someone without ever working with them? "God does not propose to judge a man until his life is over. Why should you and I?" Also, I may not be a great Martial Artist, but if he were just blending styles, trust me, I'd know. The arts run 3 generations in my family, I'm not going to be awed by a jack of all trades, master of none. Why not come up to Massachusetts for a weekend Danjo? I'm not sure where you are located, but you could work with Joe, and I'd even find a way, in my diminished capacity, to get down to New Bedford, we'd have a great time. All I'm asking is, is it not possible, with all the strange things that happen in the world, that a few of these people who claim high ranks in multiple systems who aren't fakes? I know for a fact that there is at least one.

 

[MJS]

I'll start off by saying that I didn't start this thread to bash anyone. I mentioned no names in my initial post, but obviously those who are around the forums, can put two and two together.

Many times, we hear people ask, "How is it possible to train in more than one art?" It is possible and speaking only for myself, I do it because I enjoy the arts that I train in. I don't do it to impress anyone, and I certainly don't do it for the rank. As I said earlier, one of the arts I train in, I have no desire to test for rank. For the amount of time I've put into training in Arnis, one would think that I'd be in the black belt ranks. Not the case though, as I'm still Brown.

So, to someone who never trained before or someone who is very new to the arts, having X number of arts, high rank, pictures of themselves with 20 different Masters, or a wall full of awards and trophies, sure that'll look impressive. However, take someone who has been around a while, show them the same scenario and I'd bet some sort of red flag or question would arise.

Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?

 

[exile]

One paragraph in particular that really caught my eye was the 4th one down. In a way, IMHO, I think this goes hand in hand with the respect thread I started a while back. It also, IMO, falls into the black belt syndrome, that trap that many seem to fall into. For some reason, when people put on that belt, they think that its an automatic sign that people a) need to respect you, b) people should respect you and c) that by having X number of stripes and/or rank, that it'll mean that people will view you differently.

I meant to answer this earlier, Mike, but my TKD class, visiting relative from British Columbia, and a host of other random factors completely derailed my plans, so here goes. (I have a feeling that we actually have two different, though somewhat related, discussions running at the same timer here, but as long as we can keep it going, that's probably OK...)

The syndrome you describe in connection with new black belts is very obvious with a lot of new Ph.D.s also, but it doesn't last very long as a rule! What happens is that people spend a good many years of their youth mastering the basics, finding an interesting research problem at the frontiers of knowledge, making a certain amount of progress towards a solution, and enjoying about a year or so of thinking of themselves as the leading edge of knowledge in that field. But within another year or two, there's a whole crop of hot new talents in the field getting their Ph.D.s, who've absorbed the lessons of their predecessors (including those who were the hot new talent a couple of years previously) and are pushing on past them. You realize all of a suddent that everyone in your peer group has a Ph.D., that it's not that big a deal, that it's a starting place. Unless you're extremely gifted, a real prodigy, your own doctoral research will be, if not obsolete, then at best `part of the furniture' in a very short time, unless you get your butt in high gear to go well beyond what you had to do to get your doctorate. You simply do not have time to rest on your laurels. There are dozens of bright young scientists just like you, submitting their best work to the best journals, just as you are, and unless you hustle like crazy, they will pass you. What counts, once you get your Ph.D., is not your Ph.D., but your list of publications, your record of results—things you've discovered, solutions you've devised, that pass the hostile scrutiny of the toughest reviewers for those publications and give you one of the very few places in the table of contents of these journals of record, out of thousands of submissions, most of which are nixed. By the time you've been out of graduate school for a couple of years, you've pretty much forgotten you have that Ph.D.; all you think about is your latest manuscript, the last rejection letter you got, and whether you can fix the problems to a sufficient extent to get it accepted somewhere else. Content, not rank or degree hierarchy, rules here, and people learn humility the hard way.

I still stand by my motto of: Impress me with your skill, not with the number of arts or stripes that you have.

Exactly, exactly. It corresponds to the fact that in the academic world of mathematics, for example, no one gives a rodent's posterior what rank you are; all they care about is, what theorems have you proved? Content, not form. And respect is extended to those who have real content to offer and can point to a glowing track record on their CVs, not people who've moved up the ranks with competent but maybe lacklustre performances and simply waited for advancement.

The good side of all this is that respect is awarded for real quality. The bad side is, a lot of people who are good but not quite good enough get broken by the system. It's too bad, but it's kind of Darwinian: that's why the physics, the chemistry, the medicine, the theory of mental processes we have now are of a fundamentally different order than what we had in these areas three hundred years ago. You're suggesting that we apply a similar standard in the martial arts—respect is earned by knowledge and skill, not by the rank your dojo has awarded you; the rank is only there, presumably, because of what you know and what you can do, and it's the latter, therefore, that are the true bases for earning the respect of others. And I agree with this, 100%.