High Rank and Multiple Arts

[KENPOJOE]

Is the practice of holding multiple high ranks in numerous styles completely a western thing? I have rarely seen any Japanese or Korean masters claim 8th, 9th and 10th degree ranks in more than one system spoken of anywhere on the net.

Hi folks!
Dear stone dragone,
Really? I've seen Japanese sensei of koryu [old school] budo who have "menkyo kaiden"[master rank and scroll] in several different ryuha [style syllabus]. Many times it is under the auspices of a particular style organization and/or group.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[tshadowchaser]

Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum.

a great point in getting rank. If anyone dose not know the material of the system they are hetting rank in then why are they getting the rank.

Having studied a few arts over the years i know I would have felt foolish accepting rank in a system just because I had rank in something different. If I could not show the required eliments needed to gain a rank I would most certianly never expect to wear it.

People who know some arts are able to study certian other arts that are closely related and go up in rank at a fast pace.
People who study a art completly different from the one they know take a longer time to gain rank.
That being said if a person is truely a student of the arts they may have a wide varrity of knowledge and may also be able to adapt to new arts faster than noemal and thus gain rank faster than most.

Also habeing studied completly different arts at a few times in my life I concure with KenpoJoe that one can do it if they are willing to have little of a home life. Those they are married to may often wonder if the are married to the arts not their spouse

 

[MJS]

Hi folks!
Dear MJS,
The first thing that comes to mind is why do you consider it an "obsession"?

Well Joe, I'm sure you've been around alot longer than I, so I'm sure you must have seen a little of what I'm about to say. 2 reasons come to mind. 1) some people feel that status and the way others view them is very important. They may feel that by having all the bells and whistles, people will look at them differently. 2) Anytime a founder or head of a system passes, all hell usually breaks loose. Are you really going to tell me that when Parker passed, nobody jumped a few ranks or made some new claim to fame? It happened when Remy Presas died, I'm sure it happened when Parker died. What people should be obsessed with with spreading the art and bettering themselves, not necessarily how much red they have.

If you don't think there is anything wrong with it,then what is the problem?

I think I covered that in the rest of my post. Are they following the proper time frame or are people slapping on some red every month or every year? Nothing wrong with having it, but my question was, is it possible to have it in 7 different arts?

I am definitely not a "rank chaser". A knowledge chaser,definitely, but not a rank chaser!

Ok, but.....

In regards to having multiple ranks in multiple arts, I cannot speak for others,only for my personal martial arts journey. I literally sacrificed much of what most people consider a "normal" life. I have given numerous hours to the study of the arts. I have studied at no less than 5 different arts at the same time! Training in different dojo/kwoon/dojang/training halls at different locations on different days & nights. to the point i would go to dojos by bus,take the classes there, be literally stranded there,have to sleep on the dojo floor and then take the first bus to get back home to teach or train at another studio that day,afternoon or night. I have collected numerous videos,dvds and other media in a never-ending quest for diverse knowledge,

I don't know..just seems like a difficult and tiring task. What was the desire to do no less than 5 at the same time? Just seems like alot of rank, in many arts. What was, out of curiosity, the time frame for all of this?

MJS, you clearly state that it was your active choice not to obtain rank. You clearly state that you are "happy" to be at the rank that you are,but yet you question those who either were not happy to "settle for mediocracy" and continue being recognized for their accomplishments in the arts they study.

I recently switched arts, so during that period, while learning the new material (Parker to Tracy) I'm not testing for any new rank. When the time is right, I'll test. Has nothing to do with mediocracy. I certainly wouldn't say my skills are mediocre. My inst. certainly acknowledges my accomplishments, and I've received many compliments from people that I've taught. But, I don't need rank in 10 arts, and multiple BB degrees to prove anything.

Thanks for taking the time to give your replies.

Mike

 

[John Bishop]

Hi folks!
In regards the the "you are already a blackbelt somewhere else in something else" section, Ive never really agreed to that unless I could show said material that was required within their curriculum. And because of that I could learn at an accellerated rate,while not waiving learning the required material.
KENPOJOE

I would think that any decent 1st degree black belt would be able to demonstrate the curriculum of their system.
But normally when one gets to the point of being 6th - 9th degree in a system, that rank usually represents 20 to 40+ plus years of active participation in that system.
So how many lifetimes would it take for someone to actually earn several high ranks?

 

[Monadnock]

I would think that any decent 1st degree black belt would be able to demonstrate the curriculum of their system.
But normally when one gets to the point of being 6th - 9th degree in a system, that rank usually represents 20 to 40+ plus years of active participation in that system.
So how many lifetimes would it take for someone to actually earn several high ranks?

I think they could be earned simultaneously if the arts are similar.

I can think of a lot of Japanese stylists with many high ranks, some still living. In fact, there is a Soke of 9 ryu who is doing quite well.

 

[John Bishop]

I think they could be earned simultaneously if the arts are similar.

I can think of a lot of Japanese stylists with many high ranks, some still living. In fact, there is a Soke of 9 ryu who is doing quite well.

"Japanese" stylists, or non-Asians who practice Japanese arts? Most of the "Japanese" martial artists I've known were of the opinion that a lifetime of study and practice could be dedicated to 1 or 2 martial arts.

 

[dianhsuhe]

What a great thread...

I sure appreciate Kenpojoe and his thoughtful posts, I am happily married but often fantasize about truly "living the martial way" and what it might be like to study my art FULL-TIME. I have been fortunate to teach full-time when I was younger but never LIVED the art.

Interesting that in the system I chose, the material required for upper dan ranks is VERY challenging- Literally an entirely different level of movement, understanding, and mental attitude. I am a mere 3rd dan after 15 years in- I would not think of studying something else cuz I am getting to the real good stuff now! LOL

5 arts at one time must be tremendously difficult and confusing- Mr Rebelo is obviously an exception to the rule...Children do not try this at home! Many folks go til they get their Shodan, then they check that art off their list and move to the next. To each their own, just please do not create your own art based on your "vast martial arts resume" which is basically beginner material (white to 1st degree BB) from a mish-mash of arts.

I see it all the time and I feel for the unwitting students who sign up to learn: Karate-Kenpo-Jujitsu-Tai Chi, Kung-Fu- Krav Maga. LOL

James

 

[tellner]

"You can do ten years of martial arts or you can do the first year ten times," as Guru Plinck says.

Back in the days when dinosaurs walked the Earth and Usenet had not turned into utter unmitigated crap I made a point by making up the name of the mythical "Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu". Damned if I didn't get angry email from a guy who didn't like me insulting his teacher Master Billy Bob. There was such a guy. The name of his art really did start out with "Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu" with something else tacked on the end. I'm willing to bet that only the first three words "Billy", "Bob" and "Kenpo" were true. And I wouldn't take odds on the quality of the Kenpo.

 

[Monadnock]

"Japanese" stylists, or non-Asians who practice Japanese arts? Most of the "Japanese" martial artists I've known were of the opinion that a lifetime of study and practice could be dedicated to 1 or 2 martial arts.

I was referring to Japanese people. But I think the same could extend to anyone who trains full time.

Learning several systems of weapons, like sword, naginata and bo plus empty hand arts could be done by training in several systems, or, one all inclusive system. (Generally only one rank would be issued in this case)

I think what is important is that there has been a considerable amount of time spent under each art, or category, if a high rank is to be earned.

However, I can certainly appreciate the concern in this country to protect students from going under self proclaimed masters and mega-dans.

Just my $.02. Thanks for reading

 

[Jdokan]

As a person attains a certain level of mastery of an art they have developed specific fundamentals on basics, balance, concepts, etc....these are the typical things that takes a newbie off the street the 3+ years to digest to get their BB....After 10+ years of studying what becomes the criteria to gain a BB in another style? If you can memorize ALL the material and perform it as expected and that time frame is 6 months what happens? Does that individual wait another 2 1/2 years???
....In every circle there are those that are legitimate in what they can accomplish but there is also those that are not and at times the unsuspecting individual gets rooked...which makes us all look bad...
Anyways,
to quote a famous American: that's my two cents....

 

[Danjo]

Kenpo Joe wrote: "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"

Modesty aside, so you're telling us that you're a master of Karazenpo then? What exactly IS the curriculum for Karazenpo? No one seems to be able to pin that one down exactly, but since you're a master of it, perhaps you can clarify things for us?

How many Kata/forms are there? Combinations? etc.

I know that Walter Godin and at least two of his students said that there is no curriculum of Karazenpo, but that would make it hard to be a master of such an art eh?

I also know that Joe Shuras told me that when they asked Sonny Gascon to demonstrate something besides break falls to show them what Karazenpo looked like he replied "It's all Karazenpo". So what's that supposed to mean exactly? Karazenpo is either an art that you can have a 5th degree in, or not.

Enlighten us here if you can.

Dan

 

[DavidCC]

Kenpo Joe wrote: "no, I'm a jack of all trades,master of several! Allow me to demonstrate!"

Modesty aside, so you're telling us that you're a master of Karazenpo then? What exactly IS the curriculum for Karazenpo? No one seems to be able to pin that one down exactly, but since you're a master of it, perhaps you can clarify things for us?

How many Kata/forms are there? Combinations? etc.

I know that Walter Godin and at least two of his students said that there is no curriculum of Karazenpo, but that would make it hard to be a master of such an art eh?

I also know that Joe Shuras told me that when they asked Sonny Gascon to demonstrate something besides break falls to show them what Karazenpo looked like he replied "It's all Karazenpo". So what's that supposed to mean exactly? Karazenpo is either an art that you can have a 5th degree in, or not.

Enlighten us here if you can.

Dan

I know where you can get some Karazenpo kata on video...

 

[Danjo]

I know where you can get some Karazenpo kata on video...

So do I; at the Villari website.

 

[KENPOJOE]

:lol:

Yeah, that seems like a lot. Though, partially in this example's defense,(knowing nothing else about him, though) I've got to point out that several of those multiple rankings appear to be in the same or related "arts," like everything Nindo ryu, or Parker kenpo and Dave German's TAI, and the other kenpo as well....though it is pretty questionable...and unnecessary-he certainly can't be teaching all of those things, or practicing them properly.

Hi folks!
Dear Elder999,
You've "hit the nail on the head" by noticing that several of the ranking are under one particular group or another. The Nindo Ryu ranks are under the auspices of that particular group and they are awarded by that group.The format is similar to "koryu" such as Katori Shinto Ryu or Yoshinkai Kobujutsu. As Mr. Parker's system and Mr. German's art are similar as well. As eluded to in an earlier post on this thread, If one has a well established knowledge of a given system or systems,it would be far easier to learn a similar style of art. If you as a miyama ryu jujutsu practitioner would study Danzan ryu Jujutsu, you would obviously find many similarities within that style and would be able to learn at an accelerated rate having a firm knowledge in a previous jujutsu style. As to whether I practice them "properly", well, that is up to my students who study under me and my direct subordinates in those given arts. I do actively teach many of those arts but not all. There are some that I specifically studied for my own personal knowledge and presently do not teach to the general public. Except upon request or lack of an instructor in that given art in my area.
In regards to finding it "unneccesary", I would hope that you would look at other jujutsu styles to see similarities and differences to gain greater insight into those diverse aspects of your overall art.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

It would be nice if we saw this sort of thing more often.

You know if an instructor acknowledges an honorary rank that they are not going to be teaching anything more than the rudiments of that style and that the more profound teaching will be in their chosen art.

I like the idea of the MA community honouring one of it's members who has contributed over a long period of time. Unfortunately, all too often we see friends giving each other high rankings for monetary reasons. To see a list of more than five (let alone eighteen or twenty) arts with high rank is very sad. It gives the wrong impression of the martial arts. It suggests that such achievements are easy.

Just taking Mr Rebelo as an example. Some of the arts listed there take years to develop any sort of understanding, let alone mastery (three styles of taijiquan for example). It gives aspiring students a very wrong idea of what to expect from their training.

Hi folks!
Dear Steel Tiger,
Thank you for recognizing my acknowledgement of those ranks that were honorary in nature. Many times over the years, I have assisted various martial artists in their creative thought process of fomulating their own unique art/style/system and offered insight/advice to said artists. Whether it was to confirm that a particular action/motion,technique was already in another style/system and through their study had basically found the same answer that those others had found, independent of seeing said source! I've always made myself available to help foster the creative thought process. When we stifle that process, the art gets lost.
Those individuals chose of their own accord to recognize me either as a technical advisor or an honorary black belt in their given discipline. To the point I could look at certian movements,actions,etc and say "I showed him that!" and it brings great joy to me when they value my imput to incorporate it into their own style/system.
In regards to the 3 tai chi styles, the Wu Tan/Wu tang group teaches select forms from those given styles of tai chi and I teach those given forms. I also go over the practical applications as well as forms themsleves. Wu tan, like other chinese martial arts kwoons, frequently teach several forms/styles under one roof [Ching Wu comes to mind as well as Shaolin]
Thank you for your imput,
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I have to agree with you Danjo on this ... Claiming multiple high ranks only serves to feed the Ego of the person. It takes a lifetime to master a martial arts system.

I also would listen to someone who has high rank in one system more than someone who claims high rank in multiple systems.

Hi folks!
Dear Pat,
Your Grandmaster,Al Tracy,was kind enough to "listen" to me, as well as allow me to interview many of the masters at the 2nd gathering of the eagles and allowed me to teach seminar at the last GOTE as well as be inducted into the International kenpo hall of fame. I was honored and humbled by this gesture and will always be grateful. So, you could always ask them about me and hopefully they still like me!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Well, it'a actually pretty common for Chinese style martial artists to have studied several systems, but they often don't have the same ranking structure so it sort of doesn't attract the same kind of attention. But it is not uncommon for someone in the Chinese arts to teach several different systems.

I think the Chinese arts are a bit more fluid in this way, viewing it all as more similar and part of the "Bigger Picture" than seeing it as separate...

Hi folks!
Dear Flying Crane,
Thank you for confirming this common practice within the Chinese arts. Too many people look at "sifu" and depending what style you study, it could be a formal "ba shi" family ceremony to a simple "you go teach now" from your instructor. It's "consistant in it's inconsistancy"! I've had the pleasure of learning several arts under the Wu Tang banner and have had the honor of continuing my study and practice of those arts.
Again,thank you for pointing this out!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Yeah, I think I'm with ya on this.

As far as the form goes, I guess I think especially in Tai Chi sometimes a teacher will give his student the nod to teach certain aspects of the art, even if full understanding of the complete art is still lacking. The teacher might say, "OK, you seem to understand the Chen 24 Posture Form pretty well, you can teach THAT to some students if you like." But I think there is an implied limit on that, and the 24 Form is far from the complete Chen system. I personally don't consider this person a Chen Tai Chi Sifu. He's still very much a student himself, with very limited teaching authority.

I sometimes see people list their resume online, and it seems to go on forever, you gotta keep scrolling down and down and down to see it all. They like to list every underbelt rank ever achieved in any system, every seminar they ever took that is even vaguely connected to martial arts, even tho it never lead to anything further, and every trophy they ever won in any tournament, and every famous person they ever shook hands with. It seems like listing every form and every partial art they have ever encountered is just resume padding.

I also understand what you are saying about being called "sifu". I've been training with my sifu for just about 10 years now, and about 2 years ago or so he asked me to begin leading some of the students thru some basic tai chi sword work. I think some of the students have begun to see me as a sifu in my own right, or at least an assistant sifu, but I don't feel like I merit that kind of title yet. I'm just a student struggling with the sword myself, and teaching it helps me focus on the details, and gives my sifu another opportunity to guide me as well when he makes corrections.

Ah well. It's all in how you present yourself. I think some people want to grasp at the authority and dignity and status that being a teacher with high rank seems to imply. I'm really in no hurry to make such a claim.

Hi folks,
Dear Flying Crane,
Again,a good post!
I can only speak from my personal experience, I presently teach what my sifu taught me and sad to say,he and the other 7 chosen disciples of their particular master no longer teach the arts. I am one of the few who chose to carry on the tradition of my sifu's art. When said master was teaching a seminar in my area years ago,he say my students going over some of the original forms and said "You still teach that?" and proceded to go over the form and give a correction on it and was happily surprised we still did that curriculum, that even he had streamlined over the years. I don't fuss over "sifu" titles,because I was always taught that sifu/shirfu was a simple term for "teacher father" and as you guide your own students through a certain curriculum, you are their sifu.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[MJS]

Joe,

If you woudln't mind, I'm looking forward to your replies to post 103.

Mike

 

[Danjo]

Hi folks!
Dear Elder999,
You've "hit the nail on the head" by noticing that several of the ranking are under one particular group or another. The Nindo Ryu ranks are under the auspices of that particular group and they are awarded by that group.The format is similar to "koryu" such as Katori Shinto Ryu or Yoshinkai Kobujutsu. As Mr. Parker's system and Mr. German's art are similar as well. As eluded to in an earlier post on this thread, If one has a well established knowledge of a given system or systems,it would be far easier to learn a similar style of art. If you as a miyama ryu jujutsu practitioner would study Danzan ryu Jujutsu, you would obviously find many similarities within that style and would be able to learn at an accelerated rate having a firm knowledge in a previous jujutsu style. As to whether I practice them "properly", well, that is up to my students who study under me and my direct subordinates in those given arts. I do actively teach many of those arts but not all. There are some that I specifically studied for my own personal knowledge and presently do not teach to the general public. Except upon request or lack of an instructor in that given art in my area.
In regards to finding it "unneccesary", I would hope that you would look at other jujutsu styles to see similarities and differences to gain greater insight into those diverse aspects of your overall art.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Well if they're all virtually the same, then why train in them? Seems like resume' padding to me to do that. Plus, if high rank can legitimately be earned in that many styles in that short a period of time, then what does that say for either the martial art or those that did the awarding?

We've all seen footage of those one-man bands on TV. They're fun to watch for a while, but it hardly compares to a real orchestra which contains people who have spent their entire lives devoted to one or two instruments. It's a novelty act