Very High Rank in Many Arts?!?

[MJS]

And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.

I know what you mean, and I agree. Again, this goes back to what I said before about being able to make the stuff work. I have no issue with a JR BB, but if they did away with them, I wouldn't lose sleep over it either. This is why I think that its crazy to see a 4yo in a class. Its more babysitting for the parents, than anything else. Have a min. age to start and a min. age for BB. If thats done, then theres no need to the Jr. BB.

Getting back to your first paragraph. Again, I agree. People can look real cool doing kata in the air, but ask them for some application, ask them to do a move from the kata on someone....forget it. Same for SD. Looks flashy and cool in the air, but put a body in front of them, and things are much different.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Kiddie blackbelts (as I call them) exist because a school is out to make money as the first priority. This is no secret

I don't agree with toddlers and middleschoolers running around with 2nd degrees either, which is the purpose of the junior blackbelt. It means that they are profecient enough FOR THEIR AGE to obtain the level of Junior black belt. And they shouldn't just be given the rank just because mommy and daddy believe they can do it...they should be given the rank because they have actually earned it. And in my opinion, there shouldn't be that many junior blackbelts hanging around, since it's not typical for kids to excel that far.

We all know what a McDojo is, and ranking someone up based on anything beyond ability, maturity, and experience, in my opinion, is what a McDojo is based on. They are out for money first, not the quality of instruction or quality of students. If you have alot of kiddie blackbelts running around, then I'm willing to bet there's a McDojo close by.

On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.

You won't find many 12 year olds like this, hence not many Junior Blackbelts should be running around.

If it's all about money, it should be obvious.

 

[dancingalone]

what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt?

I call that a brown belt. And no shame to it either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And I've seen those too, children who have generally good form, but have no reasonable expectation of defending themselves against a schoolyard bully, much less an adult intent on harming them. Do you know what I am talking about? A kick that looks nice in the air but cannot even push away a fifty lbs. heavy bag... A child that knows the choreography of the form but has no focus, no intensity. To them, the form IS a dance rather than a fight.

In my style, a black belt means you are combat effective. You might not be the toughest guy on the block, but you should have a reasonable expectation that your hard-won skills will translate into something useful on street.

That is what it meant to be a blackbelt when I was a kid growing up. There were no kiddie blackbelts that I had ever seen. I'm sure that someone was doing it by then (I'm 41 and my childhood was in the seventies), but nobody I knew personally had even seen a blackbelt except for Jhoon Rhee in his television ads unless they went to a karate school (I did) and those were awesome blackbelts! And no tykes with forty patches on each sleeve either, but guys who broke multiple boards, cinder blocks, and in one case, a stack of bricks.

I had no concept of what degree these guys were; I'd never heard of first or fifth dan. Black belt was it, and to be a blackbelt was to be a feared combatant. My parents were with me when we saw the guy break a stack of five bricks. I was about seven and my parents had never seen a karate demo or a kung fu movie. When they saw that, their jaws dropped. They couldn't comprehend what they'd just seen, but they knew that they'd seen it. When I got my black belt in kumdo, they didn't know the difference; its a sword art, but it didn't matter. To them, it was a blackbelt and that meant solid fighter who breaks bricks with bare hands.

Now, I'm a second dan in kumdo and a first dan in taekwondo. I have a much better understanding of what it really means to be a blackbelt, and it goes beyond breaking boards and bricks. I also understand that children should not be awarded such a rank. They haven't the maturity or the physical developement to deal with the responsibility or the physical demands of being a true first dan.

Brandon, you asked "what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for."

Here's my answer: make them a brown or red belt with a black stripe or two black stripes (rather than a black belt with a white or red stripe). That shows that they're a red/brown belt that has learned the material for blackbelt but is not mature, both mentally and physically, to test for black. Keep in mind that a growing child subjected to the demands of what a blackbelt traditionally is called upon to do can actually suffer permanent physical damage to their bodies. Its the same reason that growing children are not supposed to be doing body building or training with heavy weights. Growing children should not be subjected to head blows or hard blows to the body, even with padding. How can you be a blackbelt if you aren't ready to take physical punishment that blackbelt students receive in sparring?

Just my thoughts on the whole thing.

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[kamishinkan]

I used to not believe in Jr BBs BUT I have changed my mind....somewhat. I do not believe in taking children too early, I like to stay around the 10 year old as a minimum (but have taken 9 year olds on exceptions). At 10 years old it is 6 years to a BB grade (we have a minimum BB age of 16)which is a little longer than normal (in my school it usually takes around 4 years). I don't have a problem with that except around 10 years ago I saw an old documentary on Karate in Japan and Okinawa and in it I noticed several young (under 16) Black Belts. I sort of had a change of heart. I now see it as still needing a minimum but allowing for the exceptions in some kids who are under 16. I have given only 1 Jr BB ever, to a young female who is exceptional. She was tested in front of a board and was drilled through her waza as hard as any adult and forced to spar and do randori with adults at the end. Although performing to adult standards she has worn a Jr BB (white stripe in the BB) for the past 2 years. I am about to make her another exception, I am going to test her for Nidan at 16.......
Can she beat up any adult, NO, but she can defend herself against a reasonable attack from an average attacker, good enough.

 

[Brian S]

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?

LOL, no. We don't teach young kids, our stuff is much too deadly(kidding).

Generally we have students that are already in highschool or older so it hasn't been an issue so far. I would take them on an individual basis. They would have to be mature enough to take the training seriously and maintain focus. I think people teach kids that are too young these days. Then they are burnt out or think they know everything before they even get out of highschool! The youngest we had was 14 and he left after 1yr.

However, I am in favor of junior blackbelt ranks if they are under 16.

 

[Brian S]

Great post!! Now, I have a question. In your school, you have a 16yr age for 1st degree. Do you have an age requirement as to when they start? What do you do if you get a 5yr old. Do you make them wait 11yrs before they get their 1st degree or do you have something like a Jr. BB to give them in the meantime?

Actually it does devalue the status of a black belt when you have legions of kids wearing a dan rank when they don't know their forms nor can they even complete a proper side kick. Personally, I don't even tell my non-martial artist friends anymore that I have a black belt in TKD. The last time I did it, I got something like, "Oh really. That's cool. My six year old niece is one, too."

You don't need the belt to gain experience or knowledge. That said, the belt should mean something, and I would never award a black belt to anyone under the age of sixteen, period.

HAHAHA!!! @ "My 6yr old neice is too"

Another reason why I never tell anyone my rank. They have a poor perception of what it means anymore.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'd just like to ask even if you had an exceptional student would you still not grade them to their apropriate level just based on their age?

No one I test will get a black Belt before the age of sixteen or eighteen. I do not care how good they are. They are not an adult and I do not award JR or probationary belts. If they do not have the ability to stand trail for their actions as an adult and if they are not able to serve in the armed forces then they are to young to even begin to understand what a black belt means under my system and my teaching.
Kids may have the ability to do the forms, techniques, etc. but I have other criteria that I judge a black belt by.

My instructor said many times if you can not trust the person to hold a loaded gun behind you and trust them with your life do not award them a black belt. I guess some of his teachings have rubbed off on me. I made the mistake once of awarding a black belt to someone that was not ready because of special circumstances and I live this day regretting I ever did so, because the person turned out to be one of the biggest fakes and frauds I have ever know in the arts. I will not make that mistake again

High rank is makeing the martial arts look foolish in the eyes of much of the public because there are so many masters and grandmaster on every corner these days. Most of these proclaim their rank loudly and strut

 

[Sylo]

I call that a brown belt. And no shame to it either.

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.

If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age. If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.

 

[dancingalone]

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.

Depends on one's goals I suppose. You're right that this approach likely would not work in a commercial school.

If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age. If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.

I'll accept students as young as 12. I may make further allowances for youngsters mature physically and mentally but I've not seen a child yet that met my standard. I've just started my school a few months ago and have 9 students of which 2 are minors. This is actually the largest class size I wish to have as I believe more students would compromise my ability to teach with sufficient detail and correction.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

For the sake of the discussion, if you don't mind me asking, what rank do you hold? Please note, I'm not intending to bash you for your reply, just looking to expand on the thread.

Sorry for my relatively late reply, this threads growing at an alarming rate!
I carry three ranks, 3rd Dan, Menkyo Chuden, Renshi Sho. All for the same system: Okinawan Tode Jutsu.

On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.

Absolutely agree. That is pretty much what I would say any sort of competent martial artist should strive for (in relative terms).

Another point, though. Are people putting too much store in the coveted black belt nowadays? We've all probably had belt hunters in our dojos and for the most part they don't last. It's just my opinion but when I think of the words black belt or shodan I don't think achievement I think first step. For me, my training properly began after getting my shodan. An entire different world of information and exloration opened up to me. Are we as modern day martial artists putting too much store in what is essentially a dirty white belt?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Problem.. is that its not 1975 anymore. Stuff like this won't fly in modern martial arts. If you want to do it this way, remove the belts.

I can think of valid reasons to not use a belt system and student age is definitely not one of them. Keep in mind that the schools that churn out kiddie blackbelts are generally frowned upon by most modern martial artists, as evinced on most MA forums including this one. Someone here on MT (wish I could remember) said that if a child still needs mommy to hold his hand from the car to the dojo, then the instructor has no business putting a blackbelt on them.

If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age.

I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.

If they are too young to hold the rank.. they are too young to even be in your classes to begin with. The minute you signed them up, you told them they were "old enough" to learn your curriculum.. so therefore they must be old enough to hold black belt.

Gotta respectfully disagree with you entirely. You're old enough to learn most all of the skills that you'd need to work in most regular jobs by the time you're in the eighth grade but not old enough to hold a paying job without a permit, and even then, there is a minimum age for the permit. Some children learn the use of firearms if they have parents who hunt or shoot, but they can't join the army until they're eighteen. Even children who are smart enough to 'learn college material' aren't mature enough or have the social skills to handle a college environment. Many levels of our society have minimum age requirements that we all accept as common sense. Why do people suddenly expect a fighting curriculum to be the exception?

Daniel

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylo
If there is nothing to work towards other than the ability, then your students won't have a problem studying the same thing for years. As long as their are visual goals to achieve its human nature to want to reach them. Noone is going to stick around like that waiting just because of their age.

I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.

I believe that it is worth recognising that in most traditional martial arts there were no definite ranking systems. Children were brought up in martial society and bred for war from a very young age.

 

[Cirdan]

It takes a dedicated student at our club 7 years to reach black belt, perhaps a bit longer for kids. This kind of eliminates the young black belt problem, even if we do accept very young students. We do have a junior black belt (white with black stripe) but no one have ever tested for it, the closest I can remember was a 2nd degree brown belt. At 13 they must starting learning the adult stuff and prepare to grade for "full" non-striped belt. This of course takes a lot of time so someone ready for 1st Dan testing before the age of 16 whould have to be truly exceptional.

Also I think there would be a problem putting someone younger than 16 under the kind of pressure a Dan test should be. Some clubs use the minimum age of 18 so there won`t be problems testing someone who is not an adult like this. This will make some have to wait to grade, seen it happen, but shoulden`t be a problem for someone with the mental toughness of a Dan candidate.

 

[MJS]

Kiddie blackbelts (as I call them) exist because a school is out to make money as the first priority. This is no secret

Agree.

I don't agree with toddlers and middleschoolers running around with 2nd degrees either, which is the purpose of the junior blackbelt. It means that they are profecient enough FOR THEIR AGE to obtain the level of Junior black belt. And they shouldn't just be given the rank just because mommy and daddy believe they can do it...they should be given the rank because they have actually earned it. And in my opinion, there shouldn't be that many junior blackbelts hanging around, since it's not typical for kids to excel that far.

Agree again.

We all know what a McDojo is, and ranking someone up based on anything beyond ability, maturity, and experience, in my opinion, is what a McDojo is based on. They are out for money first, not the quality of instruction or quality of students. If you have alot of kiddie blackbelts running around, then I'm willing to bet there's a McDojo close by.

Sad but true.

On the flipside, what are you going to do with a 12 year old who knows the forms inside and out, can perform them with awesome precision, can outspar anyone within his/her weightclass and beyond, can complete a breaking demo better than many of the adults, and knows all the information required to be a blackbelt? To me, THIS is what the Junior Blackbelt is designed for.

We're on a roll! Agreed once again!

You won't find many 12 year olds like this, hence not many Junior Blackbelts should be running around.

If it's all about money, it should be obvious.

Well, no sense in breaking the winning streak! LOL! I can't disagree with that.

 

[MJS]

LOL, no. We don't teach young kids, our stuff is much too deadly(kidding).

LMAO!!!

Generally we have students that are already in highschool or older so it hasn't been an issue so far. I would take them on an individual basis. They would have to be mature enough to take the training seriously and maintain focus. I think people teach kids that are too young these days. Then they are burnt out or think they know everything before they even get out of highschool! The youngest we had was 14 and he left after 1yr.

However, I am in favor of junior blackbelt ranks if they are under 16.

Thank you for the reply! Sounds like you have a quality program! :ultracool

 

[MJS]

Sorry for my relatively late reply, this threads growing at an alarming rate!
I carry three ranks, 3rd Dan, Menkyo Chuden, Renshi Sho. All for the same system: Okinawan Tode Jutsu.

Thanks.

Absolutely agree. That is pretty much what I would say any sort of competent martial artist should strive for (in relative terms).

Another point, though. Are people putting too much store in the coveted black belt nowadays? We've all probably had belt hunters in our dojos and for the most part they don't last. It's just my opinion but when I think of the words black belt or shodan I don't think achievement I think first step. For me, my training properly began after getting my shodan. An entire different world of information and exloration opened up to me. Are we as modern day martial artists putting too much store in what is essentially a dirty white belt?

I think that you and I agree on things more than we disagree. IMHO, I think that many times, people think that once they reach BB, that they have reached the end, so to speak, when in reality, I feel its just the beginning. I think I said this earlier, but for the sake of the post, I say it again...BB, and especially the higher levels of it, are when the real learning takes place. We're not learning much new material, although there may be some, but that is the time when we really need to start breaking down the material and looking at it from another perspective.

This is just my opinion, but I don't feel that a 14 or 15 yr. old could really comprehend that level, thats why I think that it'd be better to have some limit as to when BB status, full BB status, is received. I'd say a 25yo 3rd degree vs. a 16yo 3rd degree, is going to understand it better. Kinda like in school...if we threw someone into an advanced math class, they'd be lost, unless they had the basics to build from.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe that it is worth recognising that in most traditional martial arts there were no definite ranking systems. Children were brought up in martial society and bred for war from a very young age.

Very true. But that has never been the case in America; America has never has been a martial society.

In any case, belt systems have existed in the martial arts for over 100 years since Kano introduced it, and when eastern martial arts became popular in the US in the sixties and seventies, the concept of a blackbelt was that blackbelt = mature effective fighter, not something that I can say of any kiddie blackbelt.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

I can think of valid reasons to not use a belt system and student age is definitely not one of them. Keep in mind that the schools that churn out kiddie blackbelts are generally frowned upon by most modern martial artists, as evinced on most MA forums including this one. Someone here on MT (wish I could remember) said that if a child still needs mommy to hold his hand from the car to the dojo, then the instructor has no business putting a blackbelt on them.

Agreed

I agree. But why does the visual goal have to be a black belt? With the myriad of belts that exist, a child of nine to twelve could be put into a childs program with a four or five belt progression, each belt being half white, or a four or five patch progression, and then when they're age appropriate (say twelve or thirteen), be moved into a regular class. Then, they'll fall into the same belt progression as everyone else and get their blackbelt when they're in their teens. Children younger than nine should be in a little dragons/tiny tigers/mini ninjas program that feeds into an older child program.

I could see this being something to think about. Your saying an entirely different ranking system for the kids, whether it be belts or not. That give them something to work towards.. but doesn't at all mean anything other than completion of a kids class.

Gotta respectfully disagree with you entirely. You're old enough to learn most all of the skills that you'd need to work in most regular jobs by the time you're in the eighth grade but not old enough to hold a paying job without a permit, and even then, there is a minimum age for the permit. Some children learn the use of firearms if they have parents who hunt or shoot, but they can't join the army until they're eighteen. Even children who are smart enough to 'learn college material' aren't mature enough or have the social skills to handle a college environment. Many levels of our society have minimum age requirements that we all accept as common sense. Why do people suddenly expect a fighting curriculum to be the exception?

Daniel

Right. I'm not so much saying that you as an instructor would say "yes. 5 yrs old is old enough to be a black belt". I'm saying, that unless the instructor informs the parents of the child otherwise. The stigma with martial arts schools being all about "getting your black belt" will still lay with the parents. Who will think, unless otherwise told. That their child should or will be a black belt at a very young age.. just because they started young. Its a fine line, and its one thats hard to work around. What age is too young to start? What is an "adult"? What is a "child"? Really the only way to know is to set the age, and leave it.. and not worry about any casualties that might be effected by it. You can't please everyone. I just really puts a sour look on my face when I see kids as black belts.. Jr. Dragons.. little dragons.. or whatever.. I don't mind. But I think I am in agreeance that maybe it shouldn't be a "black belt".

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right. I'm not so much saying that you as an instructor would say "yes. 5 yrs old is old enough to be a black belt". I'm saying, that unless the instructor informs the parents of the child otherwise. The stigma with martial arts schools being all about "getting your black belt" will still lay with the parents. Who will think, unless otherwise told. That their child should or will be a black belt at a very young age.. just because they started young. Its a fine line, and its one thats hard to work around. What age is too young to start? What is an "adult"? What is a "child"? Really the only way to know is to set the age, and leave it.. and not worry about any casualties that might be effected by it. You can't please everyone. I just really puts a sour look on my face when I see kids as black belts.. Jr. Dragons.. little dragons.. or whatever.. I don't mind. But I think I am in agreeance that maybe it shouldn't be a "black belt".

I think you sum up the quandry quite well. I also don't see a one size fits all; as you pointed out, you can't please everyone.

Daniel