High Rank and Multiple Arts

[KempoShaun]

Well, I wasn't going to mention any names, but....yes, this sums it up nicely.:ultracool

Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts. I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.

 

[Carol]

Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts. I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.

His 39th year in the arts Shaun, not 49th.

 

[MJS]

Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts. I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.

Well, the main point of this thread was to talk about high rank and multiple arts, not ones skill per se, although that does factor in and has factored in during some of the posts. I have not worked with Mr. Rebelo, so I can't comment on his skill. Something I don't like to do, is use a video clip to base my opinion of someones skill, but thats another thread. However, what we do have, is a visual list of rank and arts, so that is what the focus is, IMHO.

Additionally, I'll state again, that my intention was not to single Mr. Rebelo out. I'm sure I can go online and research any number of Martial Artists and their rank. If you read my initial post, I mentioned no names.

 

[RevIV]

I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years. He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner. Fact is, he knows his stuff. He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has. I know one thing that is being left out. Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory. It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form. This can truly help in the memorization part of the material. Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material. I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day. He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[Danjo]

I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years. He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner. Fact is, he knows his stuff. He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has. I know one thing that is being left out. Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory. It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form. This can truly help in the memorization part of the material. Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material. I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day. He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
In Peace,
Jesse

Well, like I said before, he might "Know his stuff" in one sense, but that doesn't mean that he (or anyone else that does this) has earned that many high ranks in that many arts legitimately by old school standards.

In one way it could be argued that if someone of high rank in a given art gives you rank in that art, then it's legitimate. In that sense, I am sure that Mr. Rebelo has his rank legitimately (though some have argued about Dave German's posthumous promotion of him and his wearing of an 8th degree belt with a Parker patch).

However, in the sense that most of us understand rank, i.e., one trains for years to gain a deeper and greater understanding of a given art by dedicating untold hours of blood sweat and tears and teaching, I simply don't see how it's possible for one person to get that highly ranked in that many arts. At some point these have to be recognized as honorary promotions or rank recognitions rather than actual earned rank.

 

[MJS]

I have trained with Mr. Rebello, and I have known him for many years. He will candidly talk of his bio sometimes but not in a bragging manner. Fact is, he knows his stuff. He runs a small school, i do not know how many full time students he has. I know one thing that is being left out. Mr. Rebello has a photographic memory. It usually only takes him one time to see a form and he can do it, ask him years later and after only a few minutes of thinking of it he can perform the form. This can truly help in the memorization part of the material. Go and knock him if you want, but wish you knew half of his material. I am not a student of Joe's, i've worked with him at seminars and once privatley on a spear form behind an old church on a hot day. He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
In Peace,
Jesse

Hey Jesse,

As I said in a few other posts, my intention was broad, and not specifically pointing to one person. I'm sure any of us can search the net and find people with high claims. I can't and won't speak for Joes skill as I have not seen him live. IMHO, I think youtube, while its a source for many things, is hard to form an accurate picture of someone. Way too many people use that or what they hear from others, to form an opinion.

One of my questions that I had asked earlier and think is important to the discussion is when I said this:

Can all this be accomplished? I don't know, but one would have to wonder how one would find the time to do all this, at what point in life one would have to start training to accomplish this. Frankly, I'm not fond of seeing an 8yo 2nd degree black belt, but is it realistic to have them be a 7th at age 18? I'm sure there are time frames for each level. So, that being said, is it realistic or possible to have high rank in 9 arts, and a 1st degree in 5?

If someone starts at a young age, and trains in a few different arts, it is possible ot attain a high rank, but how are they going to be viewed? Maybe it doesnt bother them, but it would bother me, if I was walking around with 7 stripes on my belt and I was only 25.

As I've said before...impress me with you skill, not your rank. I've been training since I was 12. I'm going to be 34 on the 11th of this month. I'm a 3rd degree black belt. Probably should at least be 4th, maybe 5th by now. Doesn't matter to me though.

In closing, and I find myself repeating myself, but I think its necessary. My intentions were to discuss high rank and multiple arts.

Mike

 

[Danjo]

He is a kind person with a huge heart so be careful of your words and actions cuz Karma is a *****.
In Peace,
Jesse

Well, I never said he wasn't a kind person with a huge heart. I'm also not worried about Karma not being a Hindu. I believe that we reap what we sow and that you can tell a tree by it's fruit.

 

[Danjo]

Hey Jesse,

As I said in a few other posts, my intention was broad, and not specifically pointing to one person. I'm sure any of us can search the net and find people with high claims. Mike

Exactly. They are all over the place. Here's one that'd been discussed at length on an old thread. I just used Rebelo as an example.:

SIJO BOB SMITH​

10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chin Na
8th Degree Black Belt Jujitsu
8th Degree Black Belt Atemi Do
6th Degree Black Belt Nindo Ryu Gendai Taijutsu
5th Degree Black Belt in Kenpo from Grandmaster Robert Hoe
Senior technical advisor for Nindo Ryu Goshin Jujutsu
Roju Council of Elders "Nindo Ryu International"
Member of Budokan America Council of Masters
Member of the International Black Belt Organization's Grandmaster Council

 

[Flying Crane]

I think there are actually two separate but related topics creeping into the discussion here.

One is actual rank, and the other is actual skill, and the two may or may not go together.

I see a lot of people who are perhaps quite skilled, but I don't always feel that alone merits high rank. Sometimes these people are young talent and just haven't been around long enough to develop a deeper wisdom to justify high rank. I guess that's just a personal opinion of my own. It's a bit of a nebulous concept, but in my mind it is very important.

So someone may really know his stuff, be very talented and skilled, but other factors just don't support high rank, at least not yet.

And I think this is compounded when multiple arts and multiple high ranks come into the picture.

In relating this to the discussion about Mr. Rebelo, I don't know the guy and I am not in a position to make a judgement over him. But scrutinizing his list of ranking isn't necessarily the same thing as condeming him as a charlatan, no-talent martial artist. He could very well be every bit as skilled as his supporters claim he is. But I can also understand looking at his long list of ranks and raising an eyebrow over it.

 

[Flying Crane]

10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Kung Fu
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chuan Fa "Chinese Kenpo"
10th Degree Black Belt Shao-Choy-Hung Chin Na

See, this kind of thing is really weird because these items look like different aspects of the same thing. Does someone REALLY need three 10th Dans in what is actually one art? If that is what this is, then it is truly blatant resume padding.

 

[KempoShaun]

I see my point was completely missed. My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them? Oh well, I'm out of this one... be good people

P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol! My bad!

 

[SL4Drew]

This is something, until now, I hadn't given too much thought. Although, it may be possible to climb your way through the ranks and earn a black belt in several systems, I seriously doubt anyone could do that with high ranks. To me, the ability one has in their core style is the real measure. So, I think there are legitimate reasons that someone might receive high ranks from several people/places.

Foremost, is it can represent that other masters or seniors of that art recognize your talent and knowledge. For example, it may be that one FMA teacher is so skilled that he has been recognized by several other varieties of FMAs. The same thing can happen in Jujitsu, Aikido, or Karate. If you trace Kenpo just to Chow, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of "Kenpo flavors." Conceptually, there is a lot of overlap. (Yes, I know YOUR Kenpo is different from the rest.) So, isn't it really that much of a stretch for someone to obtain a high rank in another and then be recognized by the cousins as a skilled-fellow Kenpoist?

So, in my mind if you have legitimately achieved a high rank (with real skill and knowledge) in one style it is possible your peers may recognize your skill by awarding you rank in their style. I think someone suggested that these were sort-of honorary degrees. I think that is a good analogy. It represents superior accomplishment. I don't think anyone that gives out these ranks really expects the recipient to start teaching that style. After all, if you are highly regarded in your own art why would you suddenly drop it to teach another? If you were legit, you wouldn't.

After you are recognized the question is what to do you with the recognition. If you are putting it on your letterhead or business cards, you're probably taking it too far. (I'm looking at you Stephan Colbert, D.F.A.) But if you are trying to entice students to you or make a little green, then putting on a website seems OK to me. Or even hanging the certificates around the school seems fine. The first-time-guy-off-the street may think, 'wow, I can learn all this here.' Although he's wrong, if the recognition is legitimate, no one is injured by his mistake. He got a good instructor that is well respected, sounds like a win.

Unless the person is a complete fraud, seeking certificate after certificate without any competence, I'm not sure why we care. There seemed to be some sense that if you where a rank you are somehow constrained to teach only the material that got you that rank and to do otherwise is disrespectful or fraudulent. First, this is based on the erroneous premise that all of Kenpo brand X is the same. And I don't see how knowledge can be so assigned. If I show someone how to pass a guard while wearing Kenpo patches and black belt, but don't have a black in Jujitsu, then I'm being dishonest?!? Does Jeff Speakman have to take off the rank Mr. Parker awarded him because he's doing Kenpo 5.0? Or how about Chuck Sullivan and his IKCA system? Can't showing somebody how you do the technique be enough for others judge if it's crap or not? Do you have to start every lesson or demo with a disclaimer?

I'm reminded of the saying "Just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know."

 

[RevIV]

Well, like I said before, he might "Know his stuff" in one sense, but that doesn't mean that he (or anyone else that does this) has earned that many high ranks in that many arts legitimately by old school standards.

In one way it could be argued that if someone of high rank in a given art gives you rank in that art, then it's legitimate. In that sense, I am sure that Mr. Rebelo has his rank legitimately (though some have argued about Dave German's posthumous promotion of him and his wearing of an 8th degree belt with a Parker patch).

However, in the sense that most of us understand rank, i.e., one trains for years to gain a deeper and greater understanding of a given art by dedicating untold hours of blood sweat and tears and teaching, I simply don't see how it's possible for one person to get that highly ranked in that many arts. At some point these have to be recognized as honorary promotions or rank recognitions rather than actual earned rank.

Simply, Yes.. Old school standards white to black, impossible in 4 lifetimes to have this high of ranking. As for the David German 8th, if that is what GM German wanted then it should be done as to his wishes. each person is who he is, and what they feel needs to be expressed in their bio's is up to them. It is the students who need to decide. Last night i was talking to the advanced class about how little the public really knows of the Arts. I would say 95% of every person who comes into the dojo for the first time has no idea that there is even rankings above black belt.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

I like Mr. Rebelo and i will stick up for him until he comes on here. But i think i need to make something clear. I do not agree with the bio padding. If you are recognized by others be proud of that but dont flaunt it. I have been with my original instructor since I was 12/13 yrs old. This year will mark his 47th yr in the arts. He wears a 6th dan. In his bio he does not speak of his other ranks even though he holds them. This man has tried to teach me humility and i do my best to make him proud (does not happen all the time and he makes me aware of it). And i try to pass it to my students to the best of my ability. Multiple ranks/high ranks/ all relative. I know people in New England in which I sar on the testing board when they recieved their black belts --now they out rank me. Hard to chew, but i know what is right to me.
Jesse

 

[Flying Crane]

This year will mark his 47th yr in the arts. He wears a 6th dan.
Jesse

See, alluding to my earlier post, I think this is easier to stomach. Just at first glance I am much more willing to accept a 6th dan who has 47 years in the arts, than I can accept a young 6th dan with something like 20 years in.

 

[stone_dragone]

I see my point was completely missed. My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them? Oh well, I'm out of this one... be good people

P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol! My bad!

I'm sure that neither offence nor disrespect were meant in any personal manner, nor was your instructor's skill ever questioned.

What is brought to discussion is his seemingly over-impressive resume. When I look at the list, I see several ranks within what appears to be the same system (Nindo Ryu). This lends itself to the certainly unintentional appearance of padding.

 

[MJS]

I see my point was completely missed. My final statement is that, as I said in my prior posts, why judge someone without training with them? Oh well, I'm out of this one... be good people

P.s. Thanks for the correction Carol! My bad!

Apparently my comments were missed as well. Once again, I'll say this thread was not started to talk specifically about Joe Rebello. It was started to talk about people with high rank in many arts. Again Shaun, it shouldn't take long to search the net to see others with 8th degrees in multiple arts.

 

[MJS]

Well, I'm glad nobody was singling anyone out here. That being said, tomorrow will mark Mr. Rebelo's 49th year in the arts. I don't know how people can gauge others without having trained with them personally, but hey, maybe that's just the way my family has done things for a few generations and we're wrong to want to get on the mat with people before publicly berating them. Anywho... I'm sure Mr. Rebelo will be on at some point and post his own responses, so I'll leave you to your discussion.

His 39th year in the arts Shaun, not 49th.

I like Mr. Rebelo and i will stick up for him until he comes on here. But i think i need to make something clear. I do not agree with the bio padding. If you are recognized by others be proud of that but dont flaunt it. I have been with my original instructor since I was 12/13 yrs old. This year will mark his 47th yr in the arts. He wears a 6th dan. In his bio he does not speak of his other ranks even though he holds them. This man has tried to teach me humility and i do my best to make him proud (does not happen all the time and he makes me aware of it). And i try to pass it to my students to the best of my ability. Multiple ranks/high ranks/ all relative. I know people in New England in which I sar on the testing board when they recieved their black belts --now they out rank me. Hard to chew, but i know what is right to me.
Jesse

Ok..math wasn't my best subject, but I see some differences here. Additionally, I saw this:

This is news item #4

October 3, 2006- New Bedford, MA:

Mr. Rebelo celebrated his 45th Birthday & his 38th year in the Martial Arts with celebrations attended by students,relatives and fellow martial arts instructors. As he told the attendees "Elvis Preseley once told Ed Parker "It's my friends who made me who I am today." and Mr. Rebelo added "...and truer words were never spoken". He then thanked all who had come to share his birthday and look forward to many more years of learning and teaching the martial arts.

Now, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something, but some of these numbers don't add up.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok..math wasn't my best subject, but I see some differences here. Additionally, I saw this:



Now, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something, but some of these numbers don't add up.

It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo. Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.

 

[MJS]

It was my impression that RevIV trains with someone else, but knows Mr. Rebelo. Perhaps he will jump in and clarify that.

Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding. But it sure would be nice if someone clarified.