High Rank and Multiple Arts

[tellner]

But, at the same time, at black belt and higher, there should be some commonality that can be compared. You can compare two masters degrees, even if they're not in the same academic discipline. You should be able to roughly compare two black belts, and have an idea that both are dan-ranked.

I wouldn't even grant that. A Masters in Criminology is a Masters, a terminal degree. A Masters in Electrical Engineering or Studio Art is a terminal degree in a completely different field. You can't compare the particular skills and knowledge of one to the skills and knowledge of the other although you can say something about the overall amount of time and preparation the other guys have done. A dissertation on the theory of Deviant Psychology and social reintegration contrasted between South Korean and Texan penal systems is great. But it doesn't deserve any standing in Microwave Circuit Design and vice versa. Neither of them has anything to do with sculpture or printmaking.

A Karate board that judges your skills in Kendo and awards rank in Karate based on them has taken leave of its integrity. If it awards you Kendo rank it has also taken leave of its senses.

When I talk about styles awarding rank it's a matter of background. I started off in Judo. Every test was done in front of a board of examiners with at least a certain rank in Judo. The certificate came from the USJA (or was it USJF?). It was the same when I tested for rank in other systems. There wasn't just one examiner. A group of them had to pass on everyone, and the organizations of which they were a part signed off.

 

[jks9199]

I wouldn't even grant that. A Masters in Criminology is a Masters, a terminal degree. A Masters in Electrical Engineering or Studio Art is a terminal degree in a completely different field. You can't compare the particular skills and knowledge of one to the skills and knowledge of the other although you can say something about the overall amount of time and preparation the other guys have done. A dissertation on the theory of Deviant Psychology and social reintegration contrasted between South Korean and Texan penal systems is great. But it doesn't deserve any standing in Microwave Circuit Design and vice versa. Neither of them has anything to do with sculpture or printmaking.

I don't think we're that far apart... I probably didn't phrase it as well as I could have. (Doing too many things at once...)

I'm not suggesting that the particular knowledge of a person with a masters in linguistics is comparable to that of someone with a MSW, for example, or that a masters in engineering is the same as a MFA. But, the rough scope of their knowledge is comparable, just as bachelors or associates or doctoral degrees are. You know that a person with a masters has gone beyond the basics, and typically narrowed their focus a bit, spending 2 to 3 years of study time (calculated on a full-time student basis) to learn that material. They've typically completed some sort of individual or new project (thesis, performance, whatever) in their field.

Similarly, a black belt (or equivalent), especially at higher levels, should indicate that person has developed a certain degree of mastery of the material in that system. In a perfect world, we'd be able to look at a group of students from various styles, and figure out which ones are the black belts. In the real world... there are black belts, and there are people with black belts, and there are people with mastery. They don't always come together in the same person...

But, I also agree. People conferring rank on others in styles that they don't have personal knowledge and experience in are being dishonest or disingenious at best. (I'll draw a distinction between recognizing rank conferred by more appropriate authorities -- though I do so grudgingly.) You could, for example, watch me training, and (hopefully!) say "I bet that guy's a black belt!" You could see my certificate, and say "Yep, I can see why they gave you that rank." (Or, perhaps it'd be "why'd they give you that rank?") But for you to look at someone and decide that they are a black belt, and award them a belt yourself... That's different.

 

[tellner]

Ding!
Ding!
Ding!

We've reached consensus!
:bangahead:

 

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

When I talk about styles awarding rank it's a matter of background. I started off in Judo. Every test was done in front of a board of examiners with at least a certain rank in Judo. The certificate came from the USJA (or was it USJF?).

It sounds like my time period but I was with the Okazaki people so we did it with the AJJF.

And you are right, the AJJF (I think yours was the USJF), at that time (late 50's) did not award ranks in Karate, but in Judo Competition, and in Jujitsu. A different rank requirement for each. A different testing board for each, and testing was only done by yudancha certified in the skill they were testing.

That does seem simple enough.

I'm wondering what all the confusion is?

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[tellner]

No confusion really. I've just always been impressed by the clear, businesslike way Judo - Kodokan and Kodenkan - handle it.

 

[Danjo]

That's a very good analogy. You can push it a long way before you've pushed it too far.

A good blacksmith can look at a good carpenter and recognize skill. That doesn't make the carpenter a blacksmith even though they both use hammers, files and vises. If a traditional Japanese carpenter and an Amish carpenter traded workshops each could be productive; they use a number of the same tools and work with wood. But that doesn't mean that they are the same or that they could be up to speed the next day. A lot of the tools are not the same. The style of furniture or buildings they construct is very different.

When a style awards rank to someone it is saying "He is up to our standards. If he has this rank he is as good as anyone else with the same title. All of us are willing to stake our reputations and good names on it." If he can't perform the curriculum or do what other high-ranking practitioners can do (and vice versa) it's a direct reflection on everyone in the system. You can't say "We didn't pinky-swear, so we can do a take back." You give it, you stand behind it.

If Kenpo is Kenpo is Kenpo high ranks in multiple styles are meaningless exercises in multiplying by one or adding zeros. If it's not all the same or close enough as makes no difference, then sixth and seventh degree black belts should take more than a year or two. One way looks like pure ego-stroking. The other way looks cheap.

Excellent comparison.