Hapkido Q&A's

[glad2bhere]

Dear Paul:

Excuse me for saying so but your arguement is rather immature. My position is not against the use of the term "hapkido" (as I am sure you are more than aware). Rather, it is against a narrowly defined use of the term so as to lend a sort of authenticity to a particular version of the practice. By keeping things so narrowly defined one guarentees that practitioners of other versions of the art are automatically excluded. How convenient for the members of the very exclusive and narrowly defined Hapkido.

Further it matters not at all if one can make the same arguement for all the rest of the MA on the planet or not. We are discussing Hapkido here.

".....It looks like you may have picked the wrong art to study if you want a "pure" art. Let me know when you find one. Go.Train.Be Happy!!"

Nor is anyone making any arguement for a "pure" art or not.

Nor is anyone deriding you for not caring where it came from.

What I AM saying is that when people take something NOT Korean and represent it as Korean, especially to the detriment of things that ARE genuinely Korean then perhaps we need to take a look at what we are doing.

If people want to take Karate and change the name to TSD and market it as a Korean MA. Fine

If people want to take ju jutsu and market it as yu sool. Fine.

Where I draw the line is when someone like me comes along and asks why noone is paying any attention to other traditions such as are found in the MYTBTJ and I get a "who cares". Or when I ask about Korean sword and what I get is that there IS no Korean sword--- that its all just Japanese sword by another name. Or when I go on a Net and people are telling me that Korean martial traditions all died out and if it weren't for Japanese traditions there would be no Korean MA. To my way of thinking, if you guys like Japanese arts so much why don't you just go study Japanese MA. The Daito Ryu people already have a system already set up. They have patrilinear succession, a set curriculum and a ridgid hierarchical system. Why try and make Korean culture into a bad copy of their system? Is it possibly because you can't snow them quite so easy. Is it because the art of DRAJJ is more clearly and distinctly defined and one simply can't stoll into a DRAJJ school and introduce themselves as a 5th dan without being able to support their statement? Just maybe some people like having the sort of muddled identity that Hapkido has, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Hi Bruce,

As such,it was not an arguement,but a statement. Furthermore,I don't see anyone else here besides you trying to put Hapkido in a box. Maybe I don't get it,but Hapkido comes from a Japanese source,first and foremost.

There is nothing you or I can do about it,either. I do understand the veiwpoint you have about it. Following the end of Japanese occupation,Korea was struggling to find herself again,a process that I think is still ongoing. Kudo's for your own veiwpoint,but the facts are the facts,and no matter how many Korean grandmasters say Choi learned under a mountain(yes,I know),it doesn't change anything.

The MYTBTG is ancient,a bit like trying to reconstruct pankration,or Nito Ryu from the Go Rin no Sho(even though the Ryu exists,some people have tried).

Good call on the DRAJJ,but that's apples to oranges. Do you not condone the spreading of Arts? Kuhapdo has never claimed(to my knowledge) to be anything other than a Korean interpretation of Kenjutsu/Iaido. So are you a "purist" or not? If so,great,and good luck. If not,why the rub?

In answer to the "why don't you study JMA?" question....I have,and will continue to. I hold Hapkido in it's prominent position in my studies. One question....why do you think Hapkido is being "defined" as to exclude? One more....is your identity "muddled" somehow? I am just trying to figure out why this seems so complicated. I don't think it is at it's root.

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

When I first started Hapkido I knew nothing but I was learning a Korean form of MA.

There was an american guy teaching HKD in town named John Maberry (you might have heard of him he published a few books and wrote many acticles for Karate Illustrated, BB mag. in the 70's 80's etc.)

Me and a friend of mine went to his school I was a 1st gup or 1st Dan at the time or something.

Anyway he taught HKD using only Japanese terms with only low kicks. Needless to say I was floored to watch what was going on being called HKD.
I argued with Mr Maberry for quite sometime and couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I started to question my Korean teachers they would never admit to me that Hapkido was anything but Korean and they mainly spoke of Ji Han Jae as founder of Hapkido not Choi Yong Sul.

Master Tae Soo Son my main teacher to this day whole heartedly believes that Ji's system is much better than Choi's because of the added kicking aspects. Mine you Master Son was a world class kicker in his day.

This took place around 1981 or so in Philadelphia I just thought that would be interesting to post here as my first introduction to the origin of HKD.

It seem that Shihan Maberry as he's currently called had it right all along!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Why doesn't he use the Japanese term for it. Why not identify it for what it is "Eishin Ryu Kenjutsu". If he is so good at sword why is he not directing his efforts to support Korean sword at home in Korea?

".

Why is he using Korean terms for a Japanese art?

Bruce, GM Lim has studied MJER and Korean Kumdo and he developed Chung Suk Guhapdo in 1986. CSGHD is a Korean style with influences from Japanese Iaido.

BTW, Guhapdo is the Korean term for Iaido. You need to do a little more research before you start criticising people! Your style of Kumdo is heavily influenced by the Japanese. I do not see why you have such a problem with the Japanese influence on Korean Mudo?

In the 1960s there were no strictly Korean sword styles! This is according to Koreans who were there at that time!

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

It basically seems as if most so called Korean MA that are popular in Korean Today are of Japanese origin.

Tae Kwon Do / Karate with High Kicks
Tang Soo Do / Karate " " "
Hapkido / Yawara/Jujutsu/Aikido with high kicks for some
Kumdo / Kendo Japanese Chinese influence
Guhapdo / Kenjutsu
Yudo / Judo

Native Korean MA

Tae Kyon / Chinese influence
Sirum / Chinese Mongoloia influence

Others I can't think of any right now?

Who can name any strictly native Korean MA that are practiced today!

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

".......BTW, Guhapdo is the Korean term for Iaido. You need to do a little more research before you start criticising people! Your style of Kumdo is heavily influenced by the Japanese. I do not see why you have such a problem with the Japanese influence on Korean Mudo?........"

I can't help but feel that you are being purposely obtuse regarding this subject.

The line is very clear in my mind between Japanese as an influence and teaching a Japanese art as a Korean art. The Koreans do have some rapid drawing techniques but never to the extent of making it a separate art such as Iaido. Why go to Japan to study sword? Why bring Japanese sword back? Why call it a Korean art or use Korean terms for it? If you reread my posts you will see that I keep coming back to the same themes over and over again. You will also notice that people are carefully avoiding addressing those same points--- over and over again.

If people want to follow a Korean art which is heavily influenced by another culture there are a range of such skills to found and the MYTBTJ is one such source.

If people want to follow a Japanese art but study it in Korea thats OK too. Please make a point of identifying it AS a Japanese art and not representing it as a Korean art.

As far as Choi Yong Suls' material it is a great introduction--- a doorway--- into what could be deeper studies of the KMA. If people want to spend their MA careers standing in the doorway, I am in no position to quibble with their choices. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......Kumdo / Kendo Japanese Chinese influence
Guhapdo / Kenjutsu "

You have just made my exact point.

Kumdo is NOT Kendo. Some, even most Kumdo is Kendo, but some Kumdo is Kum Bup which is much closer to the Korean equivalent of the Japanese art of Ken-jutsu.

Furthermore, guhapdo is NOT ken jutsu though it is ONE form of Kenjutsu and does not exist as a separate art in Korea.

This is exactly the sort of playing fast and loose with traditions and terms that I have been talking about. This is the standard position that most people produce in discussions like this. Missing from the list you provided are such arts as the wol-do, the hyup-do, the staff, the cudgeol, spear, bow and a variety of other items. Furthermore missing from the list you provided was the distinction among the various swords used by the Koreans of which there are at least four separate architectures. But rather than be accurate with your assessment of Korean MA you have elected to re-publish the same stuff which is the standard fare for discussions like this. I submitt that you falks continue to hold onto your narrow view of the Hapkido arts because it is convenient for your purposes and not because it is accurate. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[howard]

hi bruce,

Dear Howard:

"....I cannot fathom how master lim's teaching a japanese sword art but using a korean word for it "says a lot" for what you are sharing....."

Why doesn't he use the Japanese term for it. Why not identify it for what it is "Eishin Ryu Kenjutsu". If he is so good at sword why is he not directing his efforts to support Korean sword at home in Korea?

sorry, you'd have to direct that question to him.

"....2. who is representing kuhapdo as purely korean? certainly not master lim."

Why is he using Korean terms for a Japanese art?

again, you'll have to ask him.

"........, i have no vested interest in anything related to hapkido. the only things i have posted here are facts that can be objectively verified. as for where hapkido came from, i don't give a tinker's damn if it came from mars. ...."

I bet you don't and there in lies the problem. The Korean culture is not just something that you can cherry-pick what you like and ignore what you don't like. You don't get to play fast and loose with titles, and terms and arts as though anything goes. Westerners have been showing this sort of disrespect for Oriental culture, religion, philosophy, medicine etc etc etc for a few centuries and it has never gotten any better. What makes it even worse is that for a week I sat and enjoyed the very sort of camraderie that I have always known there could be in a kwan while at the same time listening to Westerners whine and ***** on various Nets. Mike Dunn (Fla) made a pitch for Hapkido players getting together in an organization of support and fraternity. I don't see it happening and the sorts of energies that drive the positions and the perceptual defense in this discussion are exactly the reason why. FWIW.

bruce, with all due respect, are you a worldwide arbiter for what is and is not part of the korean culture?

for the final time, i'm not "defending" anything. it is you who is defending a personal point of view. i have stated facts. if you have objective information that refutes anything i've said, please post it for all to see. if i'm proved incorrect, i'll readily acknowledge it.

furthermore, imo you are in no place to judge whether any of us disrespects the korean culture, whether we "cherry-pick" or whether we "play fast and loose" with anything. we may from your personal viewpoint, but that's as far as it goes. how can you know what any of us knows or feels toward the korean culture beyond what we post on this board?

you are correct that the japanese were brutal during their occupation of korea. but is that reason to shun all things japanese forever? a different generation inhabits both countries now. if a man like master lim can build bridges with today's japanese people, and some of the rest of us find it approporiate to follow his example, i think that's something you'll just have to reconcile yourself to.

i am a dyed-in-the-wool southerner. if i follow your line of reasoning, should i shun all things and people from north of the mason dixon line?

that would make my world pretty small and insular.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Howard:

I said it before I will keep saying it. People are conveniently side-stepping what I am saying.

Side Step # 1: " bruce, with all due respect, are you a worldwide arbiter for what is and is not part of the korean culture?".

No I am not and I never represented myself as such. I am a Hapkido practitioner who is asking many of the same questions that non-Hapkido practitioners over the years have asked and were ignored or told to shut-up because they didn't know Hapkido so they could not speak to the subject intelligently. Well I CAN speak to the subject and what I am finding is that people are dodging the points I am bringing up.

Side Step #2: "....furthermore, imo you are in no place to judge whether any of us disrespects the korean culture, whether we "cherry-pick" or whether we "play fast and loose" with anything. we may from your personal viewpoint, but that's as far as it goes. how can you know what any of us knows or feels toward the korean culture beyond what we post on this board?...."

What goes on in your hearts is none of my concern. What behaviors get exhibited--- especially in the name of the Hapkido arts IS my concern. Whether you like it or not you are part of the same community that I am. What is said about the Hapkido arts reflects on me one way or another. From that standpoint I have a right to hold people accountable, one way or another, just as was done not so long ago with another person who misrepresented the arts. We police ourselves or someone will do it for us.

Side Step #3: "...... you are correct that the japanese were brutal during their occupation of korea. but is that reason to shun all things japanese forever? a different generation inhabits both countries now. if a man like master lim can build bridges with today's japanese people, and some of the rest of us find it approporiate to follow his example, i think that's something you'll just have to reconcile yourself to...."

Nobody said anything about not building bridges or letting the past bury the past. What I AM saying is that if that bridge is made of Japanese material then identify it as such. Think of it as a kind of "truth in packaging" issue. And, no, I won't be calling DDJN Lim up and asking him "why". He is NOT my teacher and I carry no currency with him. But there ARE people here who can ask him "why" they just seem rather reluctant to do it. I posit that this reluctance stands in sharp contrast to the pro-active approach people take when holding other practitioners accountable.

Step Step #4 ".....that would make my world pretty small and insular...."

Which is amazing coming out at the end of your post when this is the issue that started this discussion going in the first place. I am advised on many occasions to make room in my life for the likes of Ji Han Jae, Bong Soo Han, and a host of other personalities. These are all suppose to be great men with much to offer. We have at least five major organizations and a host of small ones in the Hapkido community. Some of these organizations take a Mu-Do approach and some don't. Some use a lot of kicks and some don't. But I raise the question of why peoples take on the definition of Hapkido must be so limited that it rules out investigating the impact of Chinese traditions on Korean Martial Science, or why it can ONLY define the material of a certain personality and suddenly there is no room for that. On the DOCHANG DIGEST people don't seem to have a problem mixing BJJ, Tude, and all sorts of other things into the KMA and sometimes even call it Hapkido. Whats up about that? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

furthermore, imo you are in no place to judge whether any of us disrespects the korean culture, whether we "cherry-pick" or whether we "play fast and loose" with anything. we may from your personal viewpoint, but that's as far as it goes. how can you know what any of us knows or feels toward the korean culture beyond what we post on this board?

you are correct that the japanese were brutal during their occupation of korea. but is that reason to shun all things japanese forever? a different generation inhabits both countries now. if a man like master lim can build bridges with today's japanese people, and some of the rest of us find it approporiate to follow his example, i think that's something you'll just have to reconcile yourself to.

I've been on a business trip for a week and just read quite a few posts in one sitting.

I don't think Bruce is against Japanese influence. I don't think Bruce is being narrow-minded.

I think Bruce is challenging other people's beliefs.

People appear to be taking excerpts of the discussion and missing the broader picture.

I asked master Mi Jung Jang if Hapkido is DRAJ with a new name and more kicks. And her answer was interesting. She gave a brief history of martial arts, saying they started with monks in India. Add a few hundred years and the arts moved to China. Add a few more years and the martial arts moved to Korea, then to Japan.

So she wasn't very specific. But I understand her point. To say that an art is Chinese or Japanese or Korean is a narrow view. Martial arts are a living, breathing, evolving organism.

When I asked her if I was learning JHJ's style of hapkido or CYS, she said I am learning Jang's style. Her own style.

The more I think about it, how could it be any other way? Mi Jung Jang is a human. HJH is a human. CYS is a human. No matter how hard a human tries, they cannot force themselves to be an exact clone of another human. You can't learn your master's art exactly the way they learned the art. You can't teach your art to another person and have them exactly understand the technique the way you do. You can't get rid of your filters you have imposed, just as others can't rid of their filters.

So what am I studying? I am not studying one martial art. I am studying a martial tradition that is more than any one person or group of people. It is more than one nationality. It is the sum of all human knowledge relating to fighting, as interpreted by my master, and as I learn more, interpreted by myself.

Now if you will excuse me, I need to go meditate under a tree. ;-)

Jeremy

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

I see you point here and I really do know what Kumdo is my teacher Master Son is a 5th Dan in Kumdo and I've seen alot of it although I dont train in it myself.

I don't know alot about actual Traditional Korean MA, but I did briefly study Tae Kyon in the 80s.

What are you trying to say about HKD it's in large part a Japanese Art and that's a fact not a loosely thrown around term?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy and Stuart:

Thanks for the thoughts. If I was going to fit what you shared into the general pattern of the discussion I would make it the next step after people move away from the idea of narrowly defining Hapkido. There is a very good reason that I eschew the ideas of "grandmaster" and "linear succession" and a huge piece of that is not just that there is no actual historical provenance for it in Korean culture. There is also the matter that such artificial things detract from what people are actually trying to do. I think its important to remember that ranks and grades and certificates and so forth are relatively new issues. We can see how they have taken on a life of their own in many of the discussions that people have on these Nets. If you start adding to that such things as what is an authentic art, and then who among the practitioners of that art is doing the REAL deal pretty soon you have people more worried about the WHO-s rather than the WHAT-s. How this discussion got started was a good example. Talking about WHO-s is much easier and a few folks have said as much. Talking about WHAT-s is much tougher and taxing and tedious. For the good of the arts, though, we simply can't continue to go over this same stuff time and again just because its easier and gives the illusion that we are actually doing something to improve our arts. This is why I stated that if such is all people really want to do in discussions such as this, please let me know and I will back off and let you folks continue unencumbered. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Bruce-

I think many people think of martial arts like they would a religion.

You will have some people who are Christan, yet accept that Christianity is just another branch on the tree of religion and shares similarities with Judasim and Islam. One the other side of the spectrum, you will have people who are Christian who say that Christianity is the only way, and if you don't agree then you are not going to heaven. There is no way to "interpret" Christianity. You either accept the bible as the word of God or keep quiet.

You can't use reason and logic to change religious beliefs. Just as you can't use reason and logic to make (some) people accept a different view of their art. It is just too personal of a belief for some people to change.


Jeremy

 

[howard]

I think many people think of martial arts like they would a religion...

You can't use reason and logic to change religious beliefs. Just as you can't use reason and logic to make (some) people accept a different view of their art. It is just too personal of a belief for some people to change.

well smelly monkey, i haven't seen much logic directed at anything i've posted, so i wouldn't know from this thread.

i post that one teacher in korea teaches exactly what he learned from choi young sool; bruce posts that i "side step" his totally unrelated points.

i post that i don't believe bruce is in any position to judge how any of us approaches korean culture; bruce somehow goes from there to respond that he has an apparently universal obligation to "police" the hapkido community.

look, gentlemen, i will post 3 more FACTS, reiterate one point that should be implicit in what i've said previously, and bow out of this increasingly illogical thread, unless any of you can logically refute any of them. here they are.

1. master im hyun su teaches the art he learned from choi young sool. he calls it jungki hapkido. he maintains that he teaches exactly what he learned. he does not claim that there are not other valid styles of hapkido.

2. the same gentleman teaches a sword art he calls kuhapdo. it definitely is heavily influenced by a japanese sword art. he has never claimed otherwise.

3. choi young sool learned a martial art in japan and taught it when he returned from korea. it might have been daito ryu, but the history is not documented and therefore inconclusive, not to mention controversial. what he taught when he returned to korea forms the roots of modern hapkido.

finally, i do not have a single, narrow definition of what qualifies to be called hapkido. does jungki hapkido? yes. does shin moo hapkido? yes. do the other kwans recognized by the large organizations in korea qualify? yes. does hapkido have chinese influences? given the diversity of today's art, it wouldn't be surprising.

farewell.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Jeremy, no disrespect intended here at all, but the assessment that we each have our own Hapkido is a fallacy. There may be different variations of application that relate to body type and preference of technique, but the techniques themselves, quite separate from the applications should and must remain constant.

I believe that applications remain in constant flux, but the technique from which they spring remains unchanged - this is often what separates living arts from dead ones - when application is no longer able to stay useful, the art of the technique becomes useless and falls out of favor...

Bruce,

I think the one thing that many of us struggle with is what arts are you speaking of? How do they interact, not generally, but specifically. My own definition of Hapkido is the supposition that Dojunim Choi taught an art that became known as Hapkido, a name he was even confortable using before the end of his life - in saying that, I realize that many of his students went out and did their own thing - here is where I would expect you would include Chinese influence - so where is it? Obviously, the Suh brothers talk of Northern Mantis...etc. You mention some weapons, where does one find these outside of book references?

Stuart, just a quick question, wasn't Kim, Moo-woong also responsible for adding kicks to the curriculum used by Ji and himself? Any talk of that in the Sin Moo camp?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[American HKD]

Hello all,

Stuart, just a quick question, wasn't Kim, Moo-woong also responsible for adding kicks to the curriculum used by Ji and himself? Any talk of that in the Sin Moo camp?

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Dear Kevin,

I never asked Master Ji about it but I think they both developed to kicking curriculum together.

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Kevin, but you are skewing the discussion before you have even finished asking your question.

You are hung up on "Hapkido = Choi Yong Sul". What you don't want to hear is that Choi Yong Sul AND the term "Hapkido" are just a new personality and a new name in a long line of personalities and names for an old Korean practice. You seem to want me to accept that because Choi Yong Sul came along and because the "hapkido" label came after that, the art of wrist-locking, pinning, striking, throwing, kicking and striking didn't exist before Choi Yong Sul. I keep invoking the MYTBTJ but nobody wants to talk about that. I invoke the Chin Na of four different traditions of Chinese Boxing in Korea and nobody wants to hear that either. I keep hearing about how people come from different traditions to train with Lim and Kim and that there is undoutedly some mixing and matching going on when they go home but nobody wants to talk about that either. They keep asking for evidence and I keep giving it and people keep saying thats not evidence. Seems as though I will have to go along with Jeremy because its becoming apparent to me that what I said before was pretty accurate. People only want things to come together a particular way. I think Howards' response is a good case.

You will note that Howard mentioned that I had identified myself as some sort of sole authority. When I said that I wasn't I made it very clear that I DID as a Hapkido practitioner have a responsibility to speak up when I saw something out of place. Howard wrote back to say that I had characterized myself as "Hapkido police". Now, thats not what I wrote, and Howard can reread my post to see thats what I wrote. You all can do the same. Fact is though that is not what Howard is interested in and I suspect that is not what a number of people are interested in.

Oh and BTW---- the dynamics you are witnessing here on the thread is the reason that Mike Dunns' idea of getting folks together here in the States is not going to work. Its simply beyond their ability to tolerate something other than the way they see things coming together. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello All,

Bruce, again I want to hear about the other traditions - WHERE are they? That's what I want to know - I think I identified one by saying that Suh, In Hyuk probably added Mantis to his other stuff to get to Kuk Sool Won, can you please identify any others.

Also, this is not a personal discussion, so I think we can get along to an extent. I think there is room for the Choi, Ji and other groups - I think we benefit from being together to suppress the real jokers who practice bogus stuff under the name Hapkido...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[American HKD]

Hello All,

Bruce, again I want to hear about the other traditions - WHERE are they? That's what I want to know - I think I identified one by saying that Suh, In Hyuk probably added Mantis to his other stuff to get to Kuk Sool Won, can you please identify any others.

Also, this is not a personal discussion, so I think we can get along to an extent. I think there is room for the Choi, Ji and other groups - I think we benefit from being together to suppress the real jokers who practice bogus stuff under the name Hapkido...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Dear Bruce,

I think we all know that Koreans logically every MA system had some form of locking, throwing etc. including Karate, Kung Fu, Tai Chi, had a few locks or throws hidden in it's systems or Katas.

So what in our times Hapkido stands out as a Yu Sul type system in Korea.

You should stop this agruement if you cant produce anything of substance to say there was another form native to Korea that's practiced today regardless of what was practiced in past and unknown times.

Other wise I still don't see your point of all this.

 

[American HKD]

Hello All,

Bruce, again I want to hear about the other traditions - WHERE are they? That's what I want to know - I think I identified one by saying that Suh, In Hyuk probably added Mantis to his other stuff to get to Kuk Sool Won, can you please identify any others.

Also, this is not a personal discussion, so I think we can get along to an extent. I think there is room for the Choi, Ji and other groups - I think we benefit from being together to suppress the real jokers who practice bogus stuff under the name Hapkido...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Dear Bruce,

I think we all know that Koreans logically as well as most MA systems have some form of locking, throwing etc. including Karate, Kung Fu, Tai Chi, had a few locks or throws hidden in it's systems or Katas.

So what in our times Hapkido stands out as a Yu Sul type system in Korea.

You should stop this agruement if you cant produce anything of substance to say there was another form native to Korea that's practiced today regardless of what was practiced in past and unknown times.

Other wise I still don't see your point of all this.