Opening a can of worms, here goes....

[iron_ox]

Brad,

Good question. I know that Moo Sul Kwan hapkido has a little over 100 techniques.

Is this the number in the ENTIRE system?

However you can argue that they are different and not different.

Here is what I mean, there are combination techniques. In other words you will combine lets say number 4 and number 6 wrist techniques to make one technique.

I know of Choi saying he had over 3800 techniques. It would be interesting to know if they were completely different or if they were combinations.

I have not seen "combinations" but rather different techinques from differnt attacks.

 

[matt.m]

I have not seen "combinations" but rather different techinques from differnt attacks.

No, not the entire system at all. If you would like to see the testing requirements to dan would be http://mskhapkido.com/id14.html.

Hope this helps.

 

[Last Fearner]

Thanks to everyone who made me feel welcome in this thread. I enjoy discussing all aspects of the Martial Art, especially when it comes to Korean Martial Art.

I don't usually like to tread too much into the Hapkido threads because I come from a different background than one who has studied Hapkido solely. On the other hand, this is where I thought my personal experience might at least give a different perspective to add to the mix - - another worm in the can - - so to speak! :ultracool

I have had an extensive background in Japanese approach to the Martial Art (from as far back as 1965). All my life I have pursued this knowledge, and yet I am still learning more and more by talking to others here. I enjoy the quest, and the sharing.

When I switched to Korean Martial Art in 1976, it was a gradual exposure to Taekwondo through somewhat weakened connections to the authentic knowledge of Korean history. It wasn't until I began meeting and training directly with Korean Grandmasters who had studied these skills all their lives - - 40, 50, or 60 years of living Taekwondo, that my eyes were truly opened. Most of them were known as "Hapkido" masters as well, but I could not tell you what their lineage is. For all I know, what they showed me over the years may have come from some connection to Dojunim Choi. I might never know for sure.

In any case, these Grandmasters always taught me the Hapkido that they knew as part of the Taekwondo curriculum. Now, I do realize and recognize that "Hapkido," as a single endeavor, can be a self-standing system that needs nothing more that what was contained in Dojunim Choi's curriculum. I respect those that value this art, and the preservation of the skills taught through the genuine lineage to Choi.

It has just been my own personal perspective, and journey of discovery that there are just so many ways to attack a person (however you want to divide it, combine it, or number the techniques) and I believe that a well trained and experienced Master of the Martial Art knows the many options of how to deal with each attack. If I had only stuck to Judo, or just the focus of upper body in Karate, or the lower body in some Taekwondo schools, then I might have only been able to respond to an attack in a manner consistent with those disciplines, and not be aware of the unique skill-set which is known as Hapkido.

I am sure that there are many practitioners who train in what they call Hapkido, and a student of Dojunim Choi might look at it and say, "nope, that's not it!" Then, I can also see someone training in the knowledge of the human body, having an understanding of the Martial Art to a point of Mastery, and being able to demonstrate the very same skills that students of Dojunim Choi use without every having trained from them. I'm not talking about self-discovery, or trial and error by low ranks. I am suggesting that these skills, all the way to the advanced techniques saved for the 4th Dan and above, have been floating around in combat training for centuries.

When I train with people I have never met before, and they show me a Taekwondo kick, or block and counter, I can consistently say that I have seen that, and done that myself. Then I show them something else that I know, and they will generally say, "yes, that's the way we learned it too!" Some of this can be due to the fact that there were merging of sources somewhere years ago, but also due to the fact that there are just so many ways to throw a kick, and make it work. When I have worked with Grandmasters who have taught Hapkido for decades, I have respect for their knowledge and skill, and I know that I have room to improve, but there is rarely an occasion when they show me something that I have never seen.

The one question I have for the dedicated Hapkidoists (serious question now) of the aforementioned 3,806 techniques taught by Dojunim Choi, is there any active instructor of Choi's lineage who knows all of them? How many do each of you know, and do you have access to being shown the rest, and at what rank levels? There is absolutely no disrespect intended by this question. I am just curious if this knowledge was passed on, and how many know it.

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[matt.m]

Last night I posed the technique question to GM Hildebrand, I also posed it to my pop this morning. Amazing how I thought I was listening to a parrot both times.

Anyway, I asked them because they were the closest to GGM Park in the beginning, so they both responded with "If it takes 10,000 reps of a technique to grasp what it is then it would take decades upon decades to get through 3806 techniques."

If Choi did indeed live with Takkeda then he was with him 30-40 odd years. That means he was learning Daito Ryu on a daily basis. The tennant of repitition would hold then.

That is why there are differences in Sin Moo, Kuk Sool, and Moo Sul Kwan. As Pual B has demonstrated "Arresting techniques", graphically if you will on this board I have noticed big similiarities in the technique he demonstrated with something in our own cirriculum.

Choi didn't have enough time or vice versa concerning the student whether it be Ji-Han Jae or Won-Kwang Wha to get through 3806 with efficiency.

That is just my thought, not a verifiable fact. Concerning Sin Moo and Ji-Han jae I sure wish Stuart would chime in a little bit of help.

 

[howard]

"...If it takes 10,000 reps of a technique to grasp what it is then it would take decades upon decades to get through 3806 techniques."

If Choi did indeed live with Takkeda then he was with him 30-40 odd years. That means he was learning Daito Ryu on a daily basis. The tennant of repitition would hold then.

Matt, those are fair points.

Since you bring up Daito-ryu, and the technical curriculum of Daito-ryu is probably the source of the number of 3,806 techniques that Choi is reported to have said were transmitted to him, maybe a Daito-ryu perspective on this subject will be helpful.

There are over 3,000 documented Daito-ryu techniques. For example, one of the handful of legitimately recognized lines of Daito-ryu, the Takumakai, has formal documentation of 2,884 techniques.

However, out of all of those techniques, the core of training is a set of 118 techniques. These 118 techniques are divided into five sets, each of which represents a dan rank in the mainline tradition. So, a student who demonstrates proficiency in all 118 techniques can be awarded the rank of 5th dan.

In order to earn the rank of 1st dan, the student must demonstrate proficiency in the first of the five sets. And that's "only" 30 techniques.

Most of the Hapkido kwans I've been exposed to have a total number of techniques in their 1st dan curriculum that ranges from around 100 to around 300. So, based on my (limited) experience, I'd conclude that whatever the total number of techniques that Choi knew was, a core of 100 - 300 techniques is the basis of most kwans' curricula.

btw, Last Fearner, IMO your question is not disrespectful in the slightest... and you made some excellent general points in your last post. Thanks.

 

[matt.m]

Matt, those are fair points.

Since you bring up Daito-ryu, and the technical curriculum of Daito-ryu is probably the source of the number of 3,806 techniques that Choi is reported to have said were transmitted to him, maybe a Daito-ryu perspective on this subject will be helpful.

There are over 3,000 documented Daito-ryu techniques. For example, one of the handful of legitimately recognized lines of Daito-ryu, the Takumakai, has formal documentation of 2,884 techniques.

However, out of all of those techniques, the core of training is a set of 118 techniques. These 118 techniques are divided into five sets, each of which represents a dan rank in the mainline tradition. So, a student who demonstrates proficiency in all 118 techniques can be awarded the rank of 5th dan.

In order to earn the rank of 1st dan, the student must demonstrate proficiency in the first of the five sets. And that's "only" 30 techniques.

Most of the Hapkido kwans I've been exposed to have a total number of techniques in their 1st dan curriculum that ranges from around 100 to around 300. So, based on my (limited) experience, I'd conclude that whatever the total number of techniques that Choi knew was, a core of 100 - 300 techniques is the basis of most kwans' curricula.

Thanks for your feedback Howard. The deal is that we have a certain cirriculum up to 1st dan in MSK. However, for 2nd dan you have to do everything from the other side. I.E. left and right side hip throw etc. The same goes for all the wrist, clothes, modifieds, combinations.

btw, Last Fearner, IMO your question is not disrespectful in the slightest... and you made some excellent general points in your last post. Thanks.
I agree totally, I find that unbiased insight is often a good thing to have as well.

Just trying to help along.

 

[iron_ox]

The one question I have for the dedicated Hapkidoists (serious question now) of the aforementioned 3,806 techniques taught by Dojunim Choi, is there any active instructor of Choi's lineage who knows all of them? How many do each of you know, and do you have access to being shown the rest, and at what rank levels? There is absolutely no disrespect intended by this question. I am just curious if this knowledge was passed on, and how many know it.

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

Hello all,

This is an EXCELLENT question!!!!

To track back, Howard raises the beginning of this question - and it is something in which I firmly believe. The curricula that I have seen have about 100 techniques to Black Belt - these are the bi bon sul - or basic techniques (they may actually be more technically complex than the later sets...).

After these techniques are understood, it is much easier to learn in what is almost a cascade of techniques in higher dan levels.

Now, speaking only from personal experience, I can say that I feel fortunate that learning under Grandmaster Lim of the Jungki Kwan, his repetoire, as he has said in open seminars, numbers around 3000 techniques - what is interesting about this however is that his training was started around the 3rd Dan level. As odd as this may seem, in a meeting years ago of several high ranking students of Dojunim Choi, there was a comparison of technique - including one who had most in photographic form. here was general agreement that the material looked identical from the beginning - the problem was that nothing jived with Grandmaster Lim's material - until into the 3rd Dan material - where things started to be the same - then surpassed the others.

I think that it is interesting that whit what I have seen, and studied, the Dojunim Choi material has about 500 - 800 (depending on dojang) sets of technique through 4th dan - so I am confident that adding this material to that Grandmaster Lim knows preserves all the technical aspects of the art that Dojunim Choi taught. So, I believe that all the material is there, one must work to search it out - and is it available? Well, time and effort will tell - me at least.

I beleive, to answer another part of the question, that skill sets are taught very high up in the dan ranks - but I couldn't say exactly to what level.

Unlike something like Taekwondo, which is highly documented, and hs lots of resources to back it up, the Hapkido in Dojunim Choi's lineage is still quite guarded - and as yet not much is available on video or in writing - but that is slowly changing.

Hope that kind of answers the question.

 

[Last Fearner]

Hope that kind of answers the question.

Yes it does, and thank you for responding with this information.

I look forward to comparing more of what we know separately, and collectively.

Thanks to all of you for keeping this topic interesting and informative.

CM D.J. Eisenhart
___________________
Last Fearner

 

[Brad Dunne]

I saw this on budoseek and thought it was interesting and relevent to our discussion. The folks that offered these statements are Korean Masters, so I thought that kind of lent itself to a certain level of validity.

Originally Posted by XXXX XXXX XXXXX
People are just wanting to know techniques and more techniques. Hapkido is about perfection and not about how many you know.




"Great to have you here, Master XXX!

I totally agree with your opinion. Many HKD masters used to say there are about three thousands of techniques in HKD. So many.

I guess it will take more than a decade even if one just tries to study one technique per a day. Not to master, just practice.

I have no intention to argue for the numbers. If there are so many, I think, it's good for masters to show and teach students for long, long time at their schools.

As far as I know, HKD has been evolved from Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu. When that art was introduced in Korea for the first time, it was introduced in the name of Hapki-Yousool(Korean pronunciation of Aiki-Jujitsu for the same Chinese characters).

It was a very new art back then. So, many talented masters joined the first school. For them, that martial art was very new, and very curious. However, those masters were already good enough to show their ability in their own original martial arts, like Judo, Karate, Kendo, Kungfu, Boxing, Wrestling, or etc. etc..

After some time, they started their own school. They taught that art in the name of Hapkido, which was already far evolved from Aiki-Jujitsu.

And also according to their own original martial art, their HKD itself was also diversified from each other. Some still maintains the original styles. Even in that case, HKD differs according to masters' physical features and characteristics.

In my case, I have three teachers, all are from the same school and the same teacher. But they are all different from each other. I can not say who is better. Their HKD is optimized on their own characters.

I am 7th Dan. But mine is also a lot influenced by Kendo practice. I teach my HKD students lots of Kendo techniques.Then my HKD could be looked as Jujitsu + Kendo by some people. You know what I mean.

I think, as Master XXX said, each one's martial art is its own perfection, no matter how it is looked or called."..........................

 

[matt.m]

I saw this on budoseek and thought it was interesting and relevent to our discussion. The folks that offered these statements are Korean Masters, so I thought that kind of lent itself to a certain level of validity.

Originally Posted by XXXX XXXX XXXXX
People are just wanting to know techniques and more techniques. Hapkido is about perfection and not about how many you know.




"Great to have you here, Master XXX!

I totally agree with your opinion. Many HKD masters used to say there are about three thousands of techniques in HKD. So many.

I guess it will take more than a decade even if one just tries to study one technique per a day. Not to master, just practice.

I have no intention to argue for the numbers. If there are so many, I think, it's good for masters to show and teach students for long, long time at their schools.

As far as I know, HKD has been evolved from Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu. When that art was introduced in Korea for the first time, it was introduced in the name of Hapki-Yousool(Korean pronunciation of Aiki-Jujitsu for the same Chinese characters).

It was a very new art back then. So, many talented masters joined the first school. For them, that martial art was very new, and very curious. However, those masters were already good enough to show their ability in their own original martial arts, like Judo, Karate, Kendo, Kungfu, Boxing, Wrestling, or etc. etc..

After some time, they started their own school. They taught that art in the name of Hapkido, which was already far evolved from Aiki-Jujitsu.

And also according to their own original martial art, their HKD itself was also diversified from each other. Some still maintains the original styles. Even in that case, HKD differs according to masters' physical features and characteristics.

In my case, I have three teachers, all are from the same school and the same teacher. But they are all different from each other. I can not say who is better. Their HKD is optimized on their own characters.

I am 7th Dan. But mine is also a lot influenced by Kendo practice. I teach my HKD students lots of Kendo techniques.Then my HKD could be looked as Jujitsu + Kendo by some people. You know what I mean.

I think, as Master XXX said, each one's martial art is its own perfection, no matter how it is looked or called."..........................

Brad, Thank you for the great find. I think this was a nice addition to the discussion.

 

[goingd]

I don't think most Hapkidoin have to worry about this since so many of today's instructors were trained by Ji Han Jae or his students. Interesting thought though.