Where do they get rank?

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

"......So, in many cases I do not see all of us in one group telling another what to do. Some are not in this group, while others have a position in it. Now, is it acceptable to have a heirarchy where one group can claim a certain thing - sure, but over another group, not really. The only time this comes into play at all is when the name Hapkido is used to represent things that some of us might not see as Hapkido - then I feel we have a right and obiligation to question and inform......"

I think I understand what you are saying, Kevin, and now I want to move forward from that point and I want to use you and I to do it.

You have your rank and I have my rank. We both practice Hapkido and relate to each other rather well, I think. Now, lets exaggerate the situation a bit.

You are a seventh dan with 20-30 years of training in some orthodox branch of Hapkido.

I am a X dan in an art which I have constructed on my own with little or maybe no actual Hapkido training. I represent what I do as Hapkido.

Maybe your first impulse is to disenfranchise me or deride me for the poverty of "provenance" I have compared with your own impeccable lineage. But what if you think the better of it and decide that you want to continue to relate to me regarding Hapkido. Do you try to do it as equals and pretend that the respective assertions about rank and standing don't matter? Do you quietly work to show me the short-comings of my system and the superiority of your own system? Do you magnanimously invite me to join your "authentic" group abnd leave my evil ways behind? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Maybe your first impulse is to disenfranchise me or deride me for the poverty of "provenance" I have compared with your own impeccable lineage. But what if you think the better of it and decide that you want to continue to relate to me regarding Hapkido. Do you try to do it as equals and pretend that the respective assertions about rank and standing don't matter? Do you quietly work to show me the short-comings of my system and the superiority of your own system? Do you magnanimously invite me to join your "authentic" group and leave my evil ways behind? Thoughts?

Hello Bruce,

Wow, lots of stuff to consider here, but I'll give this a go. I think I am more apt to work with you and try and guide you as best I can - fully knowing that I am not the know all and end all. But I feel that it is wiser to have you in than out. Now, that does not mean that at first I might not have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to what you might be calling Hapkido...this reminds me of a 4 - 5 year retraining experiment that I tried (unsuccessfully) in a Chicago suburb, where the "Hapkido" was a mixture of some modern Hapkido, Okinawan weapons (learned from a book, I might add) and some teenage mutant ninja turtle stuff... It was a nightmare to try and get this instructor to stop teaching sai forms from a book. I tried really hard for many years before they simply gave up - I might add I travelled there and back for free - I just wanted them to have exposure to more Hapkido since that was what the club "taught".

As far as asking someone in this position to "join" a group, probably not. These types of transitions are tough enough on instructors and usually devastating for some students. I would be happy to help with gradings and curriculum development, if someone wanted to "join" something, I would suggest they join with "me" first then branch out to a larger organization - since I don't charge "association dues" the price is right.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

"......Wow, lots of stuff to consider here, but I'll give this a go. I think I am more apt to work with you and try and guide you as best I can - fully knowing that I am not the know all and end all. But I feel that it is wiser to have you in than out....."

OK, but now I'm gonna put you on the spot------ mostly because you are the only person whose pitched in from this particular point of view.

Why would you do this? We both know that you are not gonna make any money from me. And we both know that I won't be leaving my own view of Hapkido arts behind. Still there is no reason not to approach you to get your input and for your part you seem not to have a problem bouncing things off of me. I guess I am going this way because we have been picking apart the folks who are NOT pitching-in and I am not a very good resource since I function a lot on idealism and conservative views. For your part, though, you tend to take a more commercial view of things than I. What would motivate you as a more commercial interest to contribute to an effort whose very definition says that you won't be going home with more cash in your pocket for your effort? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Bruce,

Well, this is howe I look at it. I may not make money from "you" but if I help you to the best of my ability, I run less a risk of losing others who might run into these groups outside the "Hapkido norm" and feel Hapkido has no merit.

In addition, I would rather have a group "in" rather than out - so if I help out. I can bring folks closer to what I see as a more traditional vision of Hapkido - but at least I don't lose a group to "another" art.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

See, and I think that you are hitting on the very point that a huge part of the KMA population simply does not understand. Just because a person does not join "my" particular organization, or sign-up to a 3-year contract, and start burning incense on an altar to me doesn't mean that helping folks out does not contribute to making the overall integrity of the Hapkido arts stronger. It certainly doesn't pay to have them turn away and join some other fly-by-night affair. Good thoughts!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Thanks. Don't like incense much, the ashes are a pain to clean up... :ultracool

 

[dosandojang]

Probably from his brother Doju Nim In Hyuk Suh!

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Kevin:

See, and I think that you are hitting on the very point that a huge part of the KMA population simply does not understand. Just because a person does not join "my" particular organization, or sign-up to a 3-year contract, and start burning incense on an altar to me doesn't mean that helping folks out does not contribute to making the overall integrity of the Hapkido arts stronger. It certainly doesn't pay to have them turn away and join some other fly-by-night affair. Good thoughts!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce et all:
This IS very interesting to hear from you folks, and I wonder what makes this train of thought so different than what GM Seo did with JP?????

Sure gets all kind of people fired up over that one, but am I not hearing similar proposals here? Not defending or supporting anything here, but it just makes me wonder WHERE does taking someone in to keep him from going elsewhere stop?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"......This IS very interesting to hear from you folks, and I wonder what makes this train of thought so different than what GM Seo did with JP??......"

I just wanted to say that IMVHO this is a rather dangerous line of questioning. The reason that I say this is that once we step across the line into personalities and their conduct the door is open for everyone to vent their opinion of what is "good" and what is "bad". After that it becomes an even more vaguely defined discussion of motives (and attendent opinions), commerce (and attendent opinions) and standing (and attendent opinions). I have never once seen any good come out of these discussions. In fact it usually deteriorates into a lot of personal attacks and bad feelings. I have no window to see into another persons' heart so I don't know that I would be much good on characterizing whether one persons behavior is all that similar to another persons'. If I had to tease out a line of discussion I think would focus on something more like the following.

"If a leader defines an art for themselves and assigns a leadership role to themselves what is the obligation of students to abide only by standing assigned by that leader as opposed to chasing after rank and standing on their own."

Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Bruce:
I dare say your assessment is correct, and this line is no doubt going to cause waaaay more trouble than it is even worth. Still, I wonder what makes it OK for some to begin a new art and give themselves rank (or have friends or peers do it for them) as we know has happened with some of the most respected pioneers we know, and not for others. Lord knows I have no love for rank chasers, but I do find it curious to see how some are accepted and even revered while others are scorned.

As you might guess, having spent many more years than most to get where I am ( I always was a slow learner, that I personally am not into rank inflation. Heck, I even went backward two ranks just to learn from another one of the roots I was tied into. As you can imagine, I am not thrilled to see some others walk in with half the time spent and claim the same rank I worked my butt off to earn the hard way. Just the same, I want to have an open mind about it, and my question was not one designed to instigate another round of arguments. I am simply curious as to what makes up the criteria that makes rank inflation acceptable.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

If I had answer to that question I would bottle it and sell it! I have pondered exactly the same point over and over again and have not come up with a satisfactory answer. Certainly some part of it is personality-driven. Some part of it is salesmanship. More importantly I find that it has a lot more to do with what people have a NEED to believe rather than what is truth. For instance, I have found that a great many folks need for their leader to be extraordinarily special because, by extension, that makes anyone associated with that personality "special". The more unique, empowered and revered the leader is, by extension so are also his disciples, yes? I think there is also a matter of "magic thinking". By this I go beyond the power of the "magic suit" (uniform) or the "magic space" (dochang) or the "magic rites" (a martial art founded in life or death struggles, say). Instead I think there is a need for people to find a "magic" solution to address all those inadequacies and shortcomings they themselves are unable or unwilling to address.

What I think I am working to communicate is not that people take on persona-s that they find attractive. Crazy people have been identifying themselves as Napoleon or Anastasia for years. What I think I am working to convey is that there are no shortage of followers who need for these crazy people to really BE Napoleon or Anastasia and will put themselves on the line to make that be real. So are the ranks assumed by leaders legit? They are, if the followers have decided those titles need to be legit. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

GREAT POST Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy:

If I had answer to that question I would bottle it and sell it! I have pondered exactly the same point over and over again and have not come up with a satisfactory answer. Certainly some part of it is personality-driven. Some part of it is salesmanship. More importantly I find that it has a lot more to do with what people have a NEED to believe rather than what is truth. ...
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
So, from your post I can see that the answer is not a clear cut thing. Perhaps being a dynamic leader is more important than what we think. In that case, I can certainly see why JP has success. In the end, only those organizations that provide what their members want/need will survive. Having said all that, the traditional curriculum may not be nearly as important as we may think it is to the average martial art buff.

I read somewhere once that being a Master is only valid if there are people who will stay with you long enough to reach black belt. By extension, a Grandmaster would then need to raise Masters to be considered a GM. To have an organization or art recognized, it would simply need to survive the test of time with significant numbers of followers, black belts and Masters in order to become a real martial art (despite what WE think of it today).

Let's look at the various organizations then.
Hap Ki Do survived because of the number of Masters who teach that art and students who follow it. On the other hand, an art like Kong Shin Bup will probably die out because I have been too strict in granting rank in it. So, this means I have done my teacher a disservice by following his own example of being tough in granting rank. Despite being a good art, it won't survive because it lacks numbers.

JPs art will no doubt be much more successful, and it is NOT because of the quality of the material, NOT because he was a legitimate senior in the art, NOR is it because he had proper lineage. Despite of what the Hap Ki Do community thinks of him, he will survive and prosper because he is good at marketing, a dynamic leader, and very focused on succeeding (read he will do what it takes to succeed).

IMHO, this is not a bad thing, beause he must fill a void we have failed to fill for our people, and it had better be a lesson to us. IMHO, and I will take lots of flak for this, JP has done nothing more than many of the very original leaders we still follow today. He took a bunch of techniques, put it together in a nice package, and it SELLS to the numbers. Suh, Lee, and even Choi did no different as far as I can see, and that is why we have such a hard time documenting what really happened back then. No one want to own up to their (perhaps somewhat sordid) past.

The fact is that the very leaders we revere today LEFT their Instructors to start their own thing. What makes it acceptable is that they have numbers and survived the test of time. Loyalty has nothing to do with it, and that is something hard to swallow for those who were raised believing that loyalty was an integral part of the art. The Koreans I know never had a problem with that, as that is part of life. We are simply too romantic about the arts.

Numbers are what count my friends, and there is NOTHING you can do about that... it is the way things work. My suggestion to the proponents of this new group is not to make the same mistakes as I have made, lest you are willing to waste your time and have it fail because of the lack of numbers. Your policy of exclusion may well be the reason for failure.

I will go back to working NKMAA, and I will do my best to stay honest in my dealings with people and stay away from politics. I will try my best to ensure rank in NKMAA is valued because of quality and integrity, and I hope in the end my efforts will make a small contribution to the art I love. I truly DO wish you all the best, and I will continue to follow your progress with interest. Hopefully you can make it work, as I do believe it is worthy.

 

[Black Belt FC]

BRAVO BRAVO kwanjang BRAVO

 

[MDFJ]

KwangJang Rudy,

I always enjoy your posts and this one was no exception.!

My very Best Regards

Marc

 

[kwanjang]

Thank you all

Have a wondeful thanksgiving my friends!

 

[Disco]

Thanks Rudy.......Here's wishing you and everyone else A happy Thanksgiving and a safe and joyfull Holiday Season (Christmas and New Years).

Mike