Hapkido Q&A's

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

What I saw in Korea in Daegu was hard, fast and below the waist (get your mind out of the gutter...). Kicks that is. The list I have from the Jung Ki Kwan is not as nicely organized yet as these others, so maybe the longer standing members of the Jung Ki Kwan can fill in here, I will try to organize the list in similar fashion as those above.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Bruce, was one of your list from GM Kim, Yun Sang? Was it the first, you list both as Myung lists...

For what its worth, I have seen lots of kicking to the lower body in many different forms of Jujitsu. Mostly for unbalancing, but also knee destruction - can't speak for DRAJJ, but seen it in other styles...should say been on the receiving end of such kicks...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Kevin:

Post #185--- the first post was the kicking curriculum from Kim Yun Sang.

Post #186--- the second kicking curriculum is from Myung Kwang Sik

The Kim-Myung Comparison, I think, is so-so. I'm betting the Ji-Myung comparison will, of course, be much closer.

My curiousity is piqued a bit about how people see the Lee and Suh kicking material fitting in especially since those are suppose to be related much closer to Ji's confederate, Kim, Moo Woong. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Bruce,

I'll look at those again...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[greendragon]

Is it just me or do ALL of these orgs kicks look eerily close to the same?
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

If you look at the comparitive post I made among the various practitioners and dropping out the more flamboyant kicks such as the spin-kicks of the WHRDA and KSW, I think the similarities are pretty close. Everybody seems to have a knee strike, elbow strikes (fwd, rwd, lateral and descending), front kick and back kick, side kick and RH Kick (or maybe just a shin kick). The greatest variance seems to come with the lesser known kicks. For instance the Outside-Inside Swivel Kick (AKA: Curve kick) and the Inside-Outside Swivel Kick as well as the inside and Outside Crescent Kicks are not as consistent. Same with the "point kick" or "toe kick" which has probably the widest variety of executions from straight forward like a Front Snap Kick to an odd curvature after the fashion of the Slap Kick. The Heel hook kick that Kim uses is low and snapped down behind the knee or to the outside of the thigh. But by the time it gets to Myung its morphed into the Heel High Hook kick and from there into the spinning heel kick of Lee and Suh.

The single technique outstanding across the board seems to be the Descending Knee Strike which is executed from a standing position. In the Yon Mu Kwan we have a knee technique ("knee drop") which approximates this but is more of a drop of the body on to a single target on the floor with the focus through the knee rather than an actual striking with the knee. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

Master Ji has a few more kicks than most, a couple them I haven't seen in the KHF or with Myung, however He Young Kim has them all in HKD1. Myung maybe dropped a few along the way.

A few of Ji kicks are pretty cool some low, some higher, but all in all everybody seems to have the same kicks except as Bruce said take away some jumping and spinning and what's the real difference not much?

Which may lead one to speculate that our Ho Shin Sool isn't much different either just a little here or there?

My guess all along is there not much difference between Jung Ki, Lim, Kim, or Ji, Myung, KHF types etc.

People may make a bigger deal of things than there really is!

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Most of it comng from the same root, it should be basically the same I would also assume...

If I had to hazard a guess - and it is a guess - I think that a lot of the higher, fancier kicks came from (at the time) an athletic group of younger, enthusiastic men that wanted to demonstrate their skill...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Absolutely. Thats exactly why I take the position that I do over and over again. I think it is a mistake to view Hapkiyusool as a separate art rather than a refinement of the yusool. Not that it can't be taught as a separate art if a person had a mind to do just that piece. As I said before my own teacher, Myung, and your teacher, Ji, have made a life's work out of essentially the yu sool level of Hapkido and I don't see where they or their students are any worse the wear for it, right?

By way of extension this is also why I take the position I do on Hapkido organizations. I know that Westerners are much more familiar with corporations and sole proprietorships but for my part I really can't see where the art has been better-served by this approach. I think that it would be well if folks learned to adopt the Kwan approach which is more fraternal (for want of any better word to describe it) than corporate. Another benefit I see is that when people start doing things with money, having folks pitch-in on an as-needed basis ( as opposed to establishing a set flow of funds on a regular basis) takes some of the temptation to cut corners or do things specifically to influence the flow of cash in a particular direction. In my own case, I use my position to get uniforms at wholesale, and cut corners for my students whereever I can. The important piece is making sure that the art gets taught with some sort of cohesion and coherence to the curriculum, right? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

Absolutely. Thats exactly why I take the position that I do over and over again. I think it is a mistake to view Hapkiyusool as a separate art rather than a refinement of the yusool. Not that it can't be taught as a separate art if a person had a mind to do just that piece. As I said before my own teacher, Myung, and your teacher, Ji, have made a life's work out of essentially the yu sool level of Hapkido and I don't see where they or their students are any worse the wear for it, right?

By way of extension this is also why I take the position I do on Hapkido organizations. I know that Westerners are much more familiar with corporations and sole proprietorships but for my part I really can't see where the art has been better-served by this approach. I think that it would be well if folks learned to adopt the Kwan approach which is more fraternal (for want of any better word to describe it) than corporate. Another benefit I see is that when people start doing things with money, having folks pitch-in on an as-needed basis ( as opposed to establishing a set flow of funds on a regular basis) takes some of the temptation to cut corners or do things specifically to influence the flow of cash in a particular direction. In my own case, I use my position to get uniforms at wholesale, and cut corners for my students whereever I can. The important piece is making sure that the art gets taught with some sort of cohesion and coherence to the curriculum, right? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Agreed

Except I still believe we learn Hapkido Yu Sool just as Aiki Jutsu, I see no differance at all. I feel I've been taught Hapki Yu Sool it just take longer time to refine than just the Yu Sul that's why many lower ranking Dans still don't get it yet or have'nt learned from a qualified teacher.

 

[Barrie]

Hey Todd,

You have been visiting GM Lim for some years so I presume you know his kicking curriculum very well. Please share your knowledge as you have asked Bruce to do.

Barrie Restall

 

[howard]

hi barrie, in todd's absence, i'll try to provide a bit of info on jungkikwan kicking techniques...

the kicks we train are pretty basic. front, side, back, roundhouse; we train the crescent kicks but rarely use them.

2 of the most frequently used kicks are the scorpion sting kick and the spring kick. the former is a weird type of reverse roundhouse kick, for lack of a better term. to do the kick with the R foot, you chamber the ball of the R foot near the L knee, then strike outward (from your L to your R) with the foot, striking with the instep. is typically used to strike anywhere from the outer calf to the floating ribs. often done to set up a joint lock or follow-up strike.

the spring kick is a low kick, the striking surface is the heel. the chamber involves simply raising the knee of the kicking foot into yourself, almost as if you were going to do a knee drive. then, strike downward into the target with the heel. can be very damaging if aimed at the kneecap or the shin, or even the outer quadriceps.

our formal techniques make very little use of kicks, and they are usually kept low. there are a couple of kicks here and there, including in the 2nd dan knife defenses. however, you will see kicks used to finish locking and throwing techniques as determined by the situation (how does your opponent end up after you apply the technique).

hope this helps... todd can surely add more detail.

regards, howard

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Howard:

".......2 of the most frequently used kicks are the scorpion sting kick and the spring kick. the former is a weird type of reverse roundhouse kick, for lack of a better term. to do the kick with the R foot, you chamber the ball of the R foot near the L knee, then strike outward (from your L to your R) with the foot, striking with the instep. is typically used to strike anywhere from the outer calf to the floating ribs. often done to set up a joint lock or follow-up strike.

the spring kick is a low kick, the striking surface is the heel. the chamber involves simply raising the knee of the kicking foot into yourself, almost as if you were going to do a knee drive. then, strike downward into the target with the heel. can be very damaging if aimed at the kneecap or the shin, or even the outer quadriceps......"

We will probably never get everyone to use the same name for things but let me see if I can compare the kicks you are speaking of to the ones I know.

The "Scorpian Kick" sounds roughly like the Inside-Outside Swivel Kick in that the rear leg is brought forward to chamber near the supporting knee, then cast forward and outward in an arc with the toes points directly to the side away from the centerline. Point of contact is the leading edge of the heel, though Dojunim Kim speaks of this same kick as a sort of "toe kick" which is low and fast and targets the inside of the thigh.

The Other kick sounds very much like a Scoop Kick which most people recognize as a low Side Kick done with the arch of the foot faced up (rather than down as with a low Side Kick). This is a great little technique for checking the partners forward motion by checking his step just as he is about to complete it. First couple are a bit awkward but its a skill one can pick-up easily. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[howard]

hi bruce,

The "Scorpian Kick" sounds roughly like the Inside-Outside Swivel Kick in that the rear leg is brought forward to chamber near the supporting knee, then cast forward and outward in an arc with the toes points directly to the side away from the centerline. Point of contact is the leading edge of the heel, though Dojunim Kim speaks of this same kick as a sort of "toe kick" which is low and fast and targets the inside of the thigh.

we usually strike with the instep (top of the foot) or the toes with this kick. it's a quick snapping kick, not a bone-breaker by any means, used as a setup technique.

The Other kick sounds very much like a Scoop Kick which most people recognize as a low Side Kick done with the arch of the foot faced up (rather than down as with a low Side Kick). This is a great little technique for checking the partners forward motion by checking his step just as he is about to complete it. First couple are a bit awkward but its a skill one can pick-up easily. FWIW.

actually, in the second kick, the foot position is quite different from the classic side kick. for example, if you throw the kick with your R foot, rather than turning your foot toes inward (to your L) and extending the heel, you would turn your foot in the opposite direction (your toes would point outward, to your R). it's awkward at first, but with some practice it becomes a very powerful low kick. it can be especially useful if you simutaneously feint hand strikes, so that you keep your opponent's attention up around his head. untrained people will hardly ever detect the low kick in that situation.

hope this helps...

 

[greendragon]

I personally like the scorpion, scoop, and outside heel kicks for in close work..they work well and lead right in to the grappling, joint locking range...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Disco]

Found this on another site and thought it may be of some additional interest.

"I have recently read however that another Korean (Jang In Mok who now lives in Taegue City) trained in Daito Ryu at the same time that Choi supposedly did. I understand that Jang In Mok has official documentation of his training and rank and that he is acknowledged by the Daito Ryu orgs. So, my question is, If Jang In Mok is legit why can't we just ask him if Choi was present while he was training in Daito Ryu in Japan? It seems to me that he would remember if Choi was training in the same dojo".

 

[ajs1976]

Disco,

you beat me to it. I did a search and I found a couple of pages with the same information.

From http://www.wdob.net/mai/people/yongsulchoi/yongsulchoi.php

Jang In Mok

We now come to a most interesting development that does not appear in much of the Hapkido literature. Still living today in Taegue city is Grandmaster Jang In Mok who also trained under Takeda Sokaku. Grandmaster Jang is eighty three years old which makes his birth year 1912. He has a scroll that lists his training record in the Daito Ryu. Even though Jang In Mok was born later than Choi Young Sool they were contemporaries in Japan studying under Takeda and they both returned to Taegue city in Korea in 1945. Jang is a doctor of oriental medicine and massage but also used to teach hapkido. As his career was mainly as a doctor he did not produce large numbers of students. Further research on Grandmaster Jang's early years in Japan is presently continuing and should he provide us with any further information it is certain to improve our resolution into this window of the past.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"......We now come to a most interesting development that does not appear in much of the Hapkido literature. Still living today in Taegue city is Grandmaster Jang In Mok who also trained under Takeda Sokaku. Grandmaster Jang is eighty three years old which makes his birth year 1912. He has a scroll that lists his training record in the Daito Ryu. Even though Jang In Mok was born later than Choi Young Sool they were contemporaries in Japan studying under Takeda and they both returned to Taegue city in Korea in 1945. Jang is a doctor of oriental medicine and massage but also used to teach hapkido. ....."

Most people who are well read on Hapkido history are pretty aware of this individual. For my part I would love to see a quick comparison between his introductory kicking material and those that we have listed here so far.

BTW: Just for the record I don't think it has actually been documented that this person trained under Takeda Sokaku himself. His licensure was awarded by a student of Takedas' (August 1943) after the teacher died in Spring of that same year. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Jang Im Mok does not appear in Hapkido literature because he did teach Hapkido. He taught DRAJJ - pure and simple. In addition, his credentials were not from Takeda Sokaku directly, but from one of his students. Jang does say he spent seminar time with Takeda, but was not a direct student. In at least one interview, he indicates that Choi was well known in Japan in DRAJJ circles as a fighter. Jang was 84 in 1995, making him 93 now (I am not sure if he is still alive).

Jang's most senior student (or rather the man he promoted the highest) is Huh, Il Woong. Huh was a student of Kim, Moo woong (co-creater of much of the kicking curriculum seen today in Hapkido with Ji Han Jae) and Ji. Kim left the instruction of Choi, Yong Sul in 1959 to move to Soeul, where he trained in the dojang of Ji for about 10 months then left to open the Shin Moo Kwan, taking the then brown belt Huh with him.

As a side note, Hwa rang do's Lee brothers were noted students of Kim, Moo-woong until 1962 (maybe as late as 1964) when they left to study with Suh, In Hyuk - founding Hwa rang do in 1969.

Huh, Il Woong was the president of one of the Korea Hapkido Association groups (three are known to have existed around this time) during the mid 1970's and is remembered by several members of the Great Britain Hapkido Association for a trip he made to the UK in 1982. This group was called the Kuk Sool Won, Korea Hapkido Association (no affiliation to Suh, In Hyuk's group). Huh is a well known university professor, and Master of Hapkido and Ki Hap Do (a form of Korean Chi-gung) as well as Jang, Im Mok's senior student. Huh is a professor at Myongji University in the department of Sports and Leisure Studies, Teaching the majors of Prescription of Exersize and Martial Arts. He was also awarded a 7th Dan, "Black Dragon" award from the China Wushu Association on July 30, 1999.

Jang only taught on a small scale, never to the extent of Choi; preferring his practice as a physician.

There are several noted interviews with Jang, including one done by GM Mike Wollmershauser which may be available soon in print, it is currently on video tape and being fully transcribed.

Before anyone jumps the gun...DRAJJ and Hapkido are similar, but not the same, the techniques of Choi, Yong Sul reflect a distinct fighting nature and directness of application that I believe is not the same as those of TODAY's DRAJJ.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Many thanks. For my money this is probably the most unaddressed piece of the Hapkido Development Puzzle. I still think it would be great to get a practitioner of the Jand Im Mok tradition to share what they learn as introductory kicking techniques to see how it compares with what we have been talking about. Even if Jang Im Mok is no longer with us, what do you suppose would be the chances of getting one of his direct students to communicate with us?

Best Wishes,

Bruce