Hapkido - Tang Soo Do link

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Bruce, couldn't agree more - martial arts schools are more and more becoming day care centers - shame really.

Moo D, I understand your point, but it is important to stress that this is a choice and not some fantasy "martial code" - but as your choice, I do agree with that.

Probably would make an interesting thread...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

Looks like I missed some of the fun. In any case, it seems like we all agree that in order to teach or keep a school open you either need: some personal wealth, to be happy living as a pauper, or to charge students a fair price. The price will naturally vary from one area to the next.

As far as selling out. I believe Dosan experienced first hand that I am kind of picky when handing out accolades or rank, and I see by his actions here that he does not seem to hold a grudge. I simply try my best to keep honor and hard work a major part of training and giving recognition. Just my way, and I am glad that there are many others doing exactly the same.

 

[kwanjang]

I think Mr. Sogor has exposed a real serious issue here about Day Care being a large part of martial arts these days. Bruce also hinted that teaching kids an art that was designed for adults is an issue. IMHO, these are MAJOR issues, and I just wonder how others deal with it. Thoughts?

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I have mixed feelings about the Day Care issue. I think though that there is nothing wrong with it in the sense that we are teaching a future generation, and helping to instill discipline in a troubled generation... assuming that that is the case.

Some of the stats that I have just heard from practitioners living in Korea is that children make up the largest segment of practitioners there. It would seem somewhat consistent.

Then again, how much can possibly be transferred to a child in a "day care" setting?

 

[Disco]

From all that has transpired and is still ongoing, several things have come to light. 1) Korea itself no longer practices what we in the states practice (the arts are for children). Schools are/have become day care centers to a large degree. 2) Since Korea dosen't seem to care, because they have invested their time in education not mudo, why then are they so interested in controling the U.S.? 3) Why, since many people already are aware first hand of what has been going on, does the people in the U.S. allow this to continue? Surely even a blind person can see a stepchild being abused. 4) Does unquestionable allegence to old school ties have any merit, when there is no more old school? Which inturn translates to who do/would you serve, a kwan or an organization? One can't serve both, because there is/will be a conflict of interest. Where does one's true integrity lie, to their current students or to past relationships that may just be onesided?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I feel sorta swamped by so many important questions! Since I do not teach children (High School and Under) I won't speak to that particular item. But the point about Kwan versus Organization is one very serious issue that simply HAS to be addressed.

Nobody, I'm sure, is surprised that I support the kwan approach to MA education. It is the traditional venue and proceeds from a very close relationship with ones' teacher. I am not saying that a person can't have a close relationship with a teacher within an organization only that the kwan approach proceeds from such a relationship. There are also a number of other qualities that arise from this particularly unique model.

1.) Unlike the Japanese "ryu" with which it is often confused, the kwan does NOT have "soke" or "kyoshi" or "shihan". Yes I know that many people use the term "kwan jang" but this is a relatively new innovation not unlike the use of the term "grandmaster". In a kwan the leader is gnerally identified by the membership as that person most highly accomplished in furthering the goals of the kwan. This is VERY different from a person assuming a role to himself and compelling others to defer to his authority.

2.) A kwan is as much philosophical as technical in its underpinnings. Perhaps this is why so many folks found it easy to use this model for MA education. Many folks seem to conclude that "Kwan" is synonymous with "style" and this can be a dangerous assumption. Most "styles are not separated by differences in technique or execution but in priorities held by the group. SOME of those priorities may translate into variances in execution but for the most part the priorities have to do with what the goals of the kwan are and how to reach those goals. For instance, in Yon Mu Kwan an observer watching from the edge of the mat would see few differences between many of the joint-locks and throws we do and those done by the Sin Mu folks. Philosophically, however, the difference is significant in that Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido focuses to a great degree on delving into the most traditional implications of what we do.

3.) An organization very often seems to speak to a quid pro quo of sorts usually involving revenues and commerce. The kwan is very much about contributions. Put another way organizations seem to speak to what the memberships can take away while the kwan looks to what members bring to the group. A simple metaphor might be that an organization might be the equivalent of a Pancake Breakfast Fundraiser and a "kwan" would be a Pot-luck Dinner.

I have taken this time in the hopes that people might gain some insight into the differences between these two institutions. I know the one I favor but that does not mean the other is bad or worthless. I only mean that we need to be careful not to confuse the two as people are quickly disappointed to find that they thought they were joining one and it turned out they were caught-up in the other.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

No Sir, I hold no grudges against you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you.

 

[kwanjang]

Thank you Dosan. I think I just did not get the right info at the time.

 

[dosandojang]

Thank you Sir. I have devoted my entire life to KMA, and I do my best keep its good name. I am very happy that you recognize my sincere efforts. I continue to learn a lot from each day...

 

[Moo D]

It is nice to see such good martial spirit and humilty on this thread. I applaud all those who have contributed.


:asian:

Regards,

 

[dosandojang]

Thank you. Same to you Moo Do!