Where do they get rank?

[greendragon]

You guys are truly legends in your own minds... Bruce went to training for one day with Ji and formed an opinion,never mind he couldn't make the second day of training, aka... quit... Korea one week and inherited the secret curriculum... Todd... same ole same ole, my Hapkido is better than your Hapkido, sorry but I'm done with all the talk.... please unsubscribe me from this site.... I would rather train than listen to you experts..goodnight folks...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[American HKD]

THE STORY OF MARTIAL ARTS RANK "STANDARDS"​

​

We hear a constant barrage of comments about rank standards, especially among inexperienced Martial Artists. By inexperienced I mean people who have less than 20 years hard training. have never produced a champion as a coach and often have never been in a fight in their lives. These people insist that we must have "standards." Of course each one means something different by standards. Let's take a look at some facts about standards.

First, there are those who say that only competition (winning in tournaments) should count for promotions, that is their "standard." That's OK for the first 20 years or so, if you wish. but what about the teacher whose knees are shot but who still goes down to the YMCA every week, year after year to teach kids? He's too old and injured to compete. Is his promotion career in Martial Arts ended forever? Well, no, say these people-in this case we'll make an exception. By the way, how many of our high ranks in any Martial Art actually got their high ranks from competition? Find me one, please, and I'll show you the exception.

Let's take technical knowledge. Some shout from the roof tops that every person must have deep technical knowledge and pass an actual exam on the mat before a promotion can be made. But what about our international Judo champions who can't do the Nage No Kata of Judo or pass even a first degree black belt test? Are their promotions ended? Well, no, say these people--in this case we'll make an exception. By the way, how many of the people sitting on the promotion boards testing the others have themselves taken a test? Find me one, please.

And then there are those who say that there must be a certain time in grade between each rank. This is their "standard." But what about Nakabayashi Sensei, who won "batsugun" (instantaneous promotion) to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dan in Judo, just one year apart for each rank, by beating a whole line of equal ranks? Should we take his ranks away? Well, no, say these people--in this case we'll make an exception.

And so it goes. For each standard, there must be exceptions, and in truth the whole promotion area is, and should be, full of exceptions.

In Japan in 1963, a leader gave two million dollars to the Kodokan and was immediately made 8th Degree. That rank (Hachidan-8th Degree) is called, "Important person of Judo," and believe me, anyone who gives millions is certainly important, so that rank is very valid. Excuse me for saying it, but that is another exception!

We of the USMA believe that time in service to the Martial Arts is the key to promotion. In the beginning, students have nothing to give but their hard work, and they should be judged on that. Of course technical knowledge is important, of course competition is important, of course coaching and writing are important. But these are all types of service, and so is long effort over many years. In the end, no one fools everyone very long. We always say, "Everybody knows who can dance." It is basically the club instructor who makes the promotion decisions in his or her club, and the USMA gives him that prerogative. For instructors who have no teacher to rely on for promotions, we of the USMA have myself as O-Sensei, because I have been directed by our Board to take charge of teaching and promoting teachers.

Not a week goes by without my hearing from some old trooper in the Martial Arts who has been neglected for promotion. Martial Arts organizations are famous for neglecting their members for promotion. I find 30 year veterans of competition and teaching who are still first and second degree black belts! It is my pleasure to study their records and often immediately promote them to 4th or 5th degree, often backdating their ranks so that we can promote them again soon. We even find leaders who started in Judo or Aikido, got no rank in those arts, then became high degrees in other arts and have no rank at all in arts they have studied for 30 or 40 years. We are proud of the fact that we correct these injustices. In fact, that is one of the major reasons we started the USMA.

I know these ideas cause some people to have fits. That's just the way it has to be. We are going to do what we believe is right, even if some inexperienced or narrow-minded person doesn't like it.

We have very high standards in the USMA because we dare to reward service and devotion to the Martial Arts. This policy is very traditional, very much in keeping with the long history of the Martial Arts. We are proud of the ranks we award, and so are the ones who receive them. There is no need to defend them, just look at the composition of our International Board of Martial Arts Masters on our beautiful website: www.mararts.org. These are the people who stand behind the ranks of their systems and the ranks of the USMA. We are proud of them.

Or come to our yearly National Training Camp held during our Hall of Fame week. There you will find great teachers teaching many Martial Arts, and everyone studies all the arts in friendship and eagerness to learn. Solid national training is an important part of our USMA rank system.

Above all we know that the purpose of the Martial Arts is the development and eventual perfection of human character. If we constantly strive for that, we can't go wrong. And for the great men and women of the USMA who daily give their best to teach students the ways of better character, we can do no less than reward them with the ranks they deserve.

You are always in my heart.
O-Sensei Philip Porter
http://www.mararts.org/articles/articles.shtml

 

[glad2bhere]

"......You guys are truly legends in your own minds... Bruce went to training for one day with Ji and formed an opinion,never mind he couldn't make the second day of training, aka... quit... Korea one week and inherited the secret curriculum... Todd... same ole same ole, my Hapkido is better than your Hapkido, sorry but I'm done with all the talk.... please unsubscribe me from this site.... I would rather train than listen to you experts..goodnight folks..."

And when people don't have anything positive to add they dredge-up something to hit a button or two and then cut and run. If Mike wanted to be unsubscribed, why dump in a quick stick and THEN take off. And I could have bet money that he would have pulled up that old chestnut about not staying the whole weekend at the Ji Fantasy Tour in Colo. I can call it that because while I made it there, for Michael it will always be just one more event he can ONLY talk about as he never made it there. And by the way..........

Now Do you idiots see what is going on here !!!!!!!!!!!

This exact same exchange took place on DOCHANG DIGEST scant monthes back. It didn't make things better then and its not making things better now. If I go on then Michael will be compelled to respond and then I'll be nit-picking back. Is THIS what you want from Hapkido? Michael makes one comment in how many posts and its a derisive one? Now lets up date things a bit.

1.) Could Michael have made a positive contribution to the minimal standards thread?

2.) Could Michael have provided a rationale for not meeting with me when I was down in Florida this year?

3.) Could Michael suggested a resource for a commonly accepted nomenclature for Hapkido techniques?

Sure, he could have done a lot of positive things, but the fact is that what he DID do was come on the Net, disparage a couple of people and cut and run. Is this the Hapkido community you folks want?

And how come you aren't being more honest about rank, Stuart? You want the structure that comes with rank but if that structure does not support your standing then you want an easement. You want a 5th dan but you don't want to have to abide by a structure that would underwrite the integrity of that rank. Whats up about that?

And how about that comment about being "defensive"? Are you going to give any explanation of where you were going with that?

And what on earth was that essay you cut&paste-d. Was there some point in all of that?

A guy could be forgiven for concluding that all that is of interest to folks here is the desire to get off on seeing your opinions published cheap on a world stage. This string started off with the statement "Where do they get rank?"

Has anything been resolved?

Has anything been clarified?

Has anything been answered?

OK. So current masters gave themselves rank. OK. Now what. Does that mean that we all are free to give ourselves rank? Does this mean that rank is inherently worthless? You folks are posting things but you are not saying anything. Whats up about that?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

And therein lies your problem.. you are more interested in stating what you have "heard" instead of going and seeing for yourself... I see you practice what Choi teaches..yada yada yada... did they also teach you to get on the internet and talk trash about Ji and other Korean GM's without ever meeting him? Or is that your own unique invention? Too much gossip and patting yourself on the back because somehow you think you are "special" in some way because you do some "special" Hapkido,, maybe all this talk is just a defense mechanism that your mind has created to bolster yourself up to feel more adequate. Psychology of Personality 101...Wake up and quit gossiping over and over...
Michael Tomlinson

Mike,

Your just making up stories that are not there! I have only stated what I see. You always seem to make it out that it is me against Ji and that is not true! Since when have I patted myself on the back? I have seen Ji's student and was not impressed at all. Why would I want to go train with Ji? His reputation for selling rank or is it his unique personality? After reading the things you write Mike I would have no desire to see Ji. Why do you get so bent out of shape when we are having a cival conversation? Do you have somthing to hide? Are you trying to build Ji and yourself up despite the bad reputation Ji has for selling rank?

Right back at Ya Mike :2xBird2:

You are always welcome to train at my dojang along with anyone that is willing to just train and I will not even try to hurt you to make some stupid point!

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:


".......You always seem to make it out that it is me against Ji and that is not true! Since when have I patted myself on the back? I have seen Ji's student and was not impressed at all. Why would I want to go train with Ji? His reputation for selling rank or is it his unique personality? After reading the things you write Mike I would have no desire to see Ji. Why do you get so bent out of shape when we are having a cival conversation?...."

I am beginning to think that there is something much more insidious going on here, but it will take a bit to explain.

Sometimes, when I counsel, there is a model called "transactional analysis" that lends organization to my approach. In that model people are scripted to behave in a particular way by getting bits of information from each of the parents. In this way it is easy to identify a lot of toxic behaviors in the children by looking to the parents to see where these influences might have come from. Its not a guarenteed answer, just another indicator to help out.
I mention this because Mikes' response appeared to me to be so knee-jerk and boiler-plate that I am left to wonder if he is not just living out what he has come to understand to be "normal" in the Hapkido world according to Ji.

Now remember, we are hearing a lot of warm, fuzzy things about Ji lately, but he has a nasty history going back to the beginning just like so many of the big names in the Hapkido arts. After years of conducting himself out of a defensive position where he is represented as the sole source of truth in an otherwise world of liars and phonies is it any wonder that his disciples would represent the world the same way? Does it make sense? No. Is it good for Hapkido? No. Is it easy, requiring little thought or energy? Absolutely!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Look, I started this thread because I was curious how Seo, In Sun who I believe claims a 10th Dan got his rank. If it is from his brother, in the martial art he (Suh, In Hyuk) made up, that is fine. That still does not answer how, when the Kuk Sool Won people have spent 20 + years telling all of us that Kuk Sool Won was not Hapkido, that Seo, In Sun now chairs a Hapkido organization.

Now, with all due respect Rudy, why do I need to train with him to question this rank? He may be an expert technician, a nice guy, good father, blah, blah, but does he have Hapkido rank above third dan that would qualify him to call himself a 10th Dan (if its only 9th, forgive me - but since he awards 9th dans, I figured it must be a 10th dan) - and if he does have this rank can anyone identify its origin. If it is self-created, or from Kuk Sool Won, great, but what is it? If it is from Kuk Sool Won, how can he run a Hapkido organization when Kuk Sool Won and Hapkido in their words are NOT the same art?

Sorry Ji was brought into the mix here, I didn't intend that. But, Mr. Tomlinson, grow up, once again you inject only name calling when you post - if discussion is just too much for you, fine, but we are all being civil here. If you feel you must go away, BYE!

What is it though with the "come and train with them" thing? What if someone came for a day to train with me and I was under the weather, tired, whatever? Would that 1 day be an accurate assessment of me as a teacher? What if I was having the best day of a mediocre teaching life? Same thing. Rank is SUPPOSED to ensure that these types of questions are not neccessary. When I meet a student of so-and-so, and they are known to me at a certain rank, that should carry a certain weight. When someone claims super-rank, that should be supported, with rank from another, or the knowledge that the rank was self-created - then we all know what we are dealing with. We here are generally involved in Hapkido - so I will not speak to the others from other arts brought up here - but the conspiracy of silence from many notable Koreans regarding their super-rank should stop - here.

If Seo, In Sun's rank is from his brother, then great, we know it is made up by them from Kuk Sool Won, and in my opinion his validity to run a Hapkido organization should be in doubt. I believe that across the board, many super-ranks have kept a don't ask-don't tell policy about their rank - does it mean that they are not good practioners? Good teachers? Wise, kind, generous? No, not at all, but in a martial arts hierarchy, there is rank for a reason - it has traditionally separated levels of knowledge and experience. If these super ranks are self ranked in their own thing - identify it and we all move on - but to call what they do Hapkido does all of us a disservice.

 

[glad2bhere]

I guess it comes down to that same thing I keep banging away at.

If people want to have a ranking system, then they have to accept a ranking system, warts and all and that includes the responsibility for owning where and how the whole chain starts and how it is rationalized.

If people don't want a ranking system, thats OK too. But with that goes the organizational bennies such as having the revenues all flow a particular direction and for a particular reason.

So how is this going to be played? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

I guess it comes down to that same thing I keep banging away at.

If people want to have a ranking system, then they have to accept a ranking system, warts and all and that includes the responsibility for owning where and how the whole chain starts and how it is rationalized.

If people don't want a ranking system, thats OK too. But with that goes the organizational bennies such as having the revenues all flow a particular direction and for a particular reason.

So how is this going to be played? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

Read the article I posted it seems according to Phil Porter there's always exceptions to the rule that's life there's no way past it.

 

[glad2bhere]

I read it, but I don't agree with it. To me his reasoning proceeds from the same learned-helplessness and cynacism that causes many Americans not to vote. Of course there are exceptions, but by definition these are rare or extraordinary events. If there is the prevalance the author would like us to believe the deviations from the norm are no longer--- well--- "exceptional".

Further, it is not our place to breakdown as many standards as possible only because there have been some exceptions or because it is hard to maintain meaningful standards. Part of the responsibility of teaching is to show students how to set standards for themselves, then meet or excced those standards by applying their abilities. Pulling the standards lower, dissipating what standards remain or reducing expectations for the students damages both the students view of themselves as well as the community view of the art. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

I read it, but I don't agree with it. To me his reasoning proceeds from the same learned-helplessness and cynacism that causes many Americans not to vote. Of course there are exceptions, but by definition these are rare or extraordinary events. If there is the prevalance the author would like us to believe the deviations from the norm are no longer--- well--- "exceptional".

Further, it is not our place to breakdown as many standards as possible only because there have been some exceptions or because it is hard to maintain meaningful standards. Part of the responsibility of teaching is to show students how to set standards for themselves, then meet or excced those standards by applying their abilities. Pulling the standards lower, dissipating what standards remain or reducing expectations for the students damages both the students view of themselves as well as the community view of the art. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ok you have made good points, but there are many major flaws in the ranking system be it self appointment, favoritism, money, egos, power, etc.

The system needs repairing and some people like Phil Porter who's in a position to right some wrongs has no promblem doing so.

As I said before I support standards just minimum standards not heavy handed ones designed to hold people back and I think were working on it to some small degree right here.

 

[glad2bhere]

".......Ok you have made good points, but there are many major flaws in the ranking system be it self appointment, favoritism, money, egos, power, etc.

The system needs repairing and some people like Phil Porter who's in a position to right some wrongs has no promblem doing so.

As I said before I support standards just minimum standards not heavy handed ones designed to hold people back and I think were working on it to some small degree right here..."


Absolutely 100% right!!

And herein is my big gripe that cuts through all of my posts. I honestly don't care if people want a ranking system or not. I honestly don't care who people want to follow or why. I honestly don't care if people want a minimum standard or set their own standards. I have my belief system and works for me.

What uniformly gets my undies in a bundle is that people report wanting one thing, making a case for something else, and then shave points to get yet a third option. I'm left wondering, "What just happened?" Its the classic case of wanting your cake, wanting to eat your cake and wanting to sell it to someone else all at the same time. To my way of thinking training in Hapkido is about building Character and it doesn't take any Character to want the world to be the way I described in the previous two sentences. Anyone who has played with a 3 y/o knows any child "wants it all" and wants it all THEIR WAY! I guarentee Life does not work this way, nor should it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy:

Perhaps I am missing something, so I share the following with some care. All the same I think there is some part of the message that is being lost here and I, for my part, believe it needs to be said. Please bear with me.

In the kwan to which I belong, as well as the organization (WHF) that proceeds from it the highest TECHNICAL rank (rank for which one tests and reflects ones' technical ability and accumin) is 7th dan. 8th, 9th and 10th dan all reflect organizational, managerial or supervisory positions. These positions may (or may not) have been preceeded by a range of technical ranks. Thats not for me to say as it is GM Myung, not I, who assigns these ranks. The reason that I raise any of this is that I believe that at least in the kwan to which I belong I have a reasonable expectation of leadership from the people to whom GM Myung assigns ranks 8 through 10. Now, whether it is fair or not, I believe that I am also justified in expecting some level of leadership from ANYONE who claims to have an 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB, and for me this goes beyong the matter of advertising ranks, bestowing credentials or assigning standing.

As far as being competent as a technician and a teacher, I must tell you in all candor that I absolutely expect NOTHING Less from anyone who represents themselves as a 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB. That is not even worthy of comment for me. Where I am challenging leadership in the Hapkido arts is to use their supposed authority to bring individuals together under some aegis OTHER THAN their own particular brandname, while maintaining some level of authenticity.

I think I can state without fear of contradiction that people such as GM-s Suh, Ji, Lee and Kimm (among many others) have all done their best to make a living from the KMA. On those occasions they have sought to bring people together but only under their own marque. As a Hapkido practitioner I think I deserved better than their unique selfish take on how posterity would frame them. People contributing on this Net (and others) are no longer young, starry-eyed gueppies, easily swayed by big names and oral traditions. Speaking for myself I fully expect that big names and big talk will be supported by big evidence. Failing that I am left to wonder how such individuals are any different from the most recent crop of profit-mongers. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
I agree with you that high rank requires leadership and a whole lot more. My point is simple. I looked at what the man had to offer in terms of Hap Ki Do... not at what rank he claims (or actually has). My whole argument was that the paper trail he can (or cannot) produce would not have mattered one iota to me. What I saw him do on the mat is what I went for.

BTW, I do not believe I have ever heard GM Seo (not GM Suh, just to make sure we know who we are discussing) say he taught a particular brand of Hap Ki Do. He DOES have a different umbrella organization now, but that is a different thing altogether. To me, this only makes him more accessible to people like me. I do not HAVE to join his "brand" of Hap Ki Do or dance to his tune (like I had to do when I joined WKSA

I enjoy the freedom to continue to teach what I have learned from my original Master, I get constant guidance in technique, and I am not being pressured to constantly "buy" things or sell them to my students (which was a major source of pressure in the other org). In all, it is very similar to what I do with NKMAA. No politics, no pressure... what more can I ask for

 

[kwanjang]

One way to find out about GM Ji's technique...go train with him? It's that simple. Then you will know for yourself and won't have to gossip all the time like a bunch of little hens running around the barnyard....
Michael Tomlinson

Exactly what I suggested earlier with GM Seo. Not to be the cause of controversy... just to point out that TRAINING (and realizing who has something to teach you) is where it is at.

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Rudy.

It sounds like we are actually on the same page. For my part I have had less and less patience with this whole idea of constantly keeping Hapkido practitioners at each others' throats. Certainly I have an axe to grind with the older generation because I think that there was a whole lot more they could have done to reduce the disparity and antagonism among various groups of practitioners. A bit at a time it seems that folks are easing into those same positions of leadership and instead of addressing these antagonisms and maybe assuaging them, the new leaders are likewise feeding into them. And look at how readily people will point-up differences rather than agree on similarlities. Wouldn't be so bad except these are the same people who preach about coming together based on compromise ("We really need to compromise.... you go first".) Nor does it help when a whole new group starts off and introduces yet another latyer of outrageous claims and conflicts. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Perhaps I should have read ALL of the posts, before I began working the ones I had missed due to our week of training and promotion here. At first I though we had a great discussion going, but now it seems like it has turned once more in the same old BS that is so detrimental to our arts.

Why is it that we cannot have a civil discussion???? Kevin had a legitimate question, we had some good debate, I was learning to see it the way some others viewed it (so the entire thread was a good learning experience for me), and suddenly we are at it again.

Like I said, the "go train" with the man (in either Seo or Ji's case) is not a challenge. I (at least) was simply suggesting that a "trained eye" should be able to SEE if the person is doing Hap Ki Do or not. Nothing to do with what an art is called, just a simple way to check the validity of the roots of our art.

Suh (not Seo) has a reason why he claims that Kuk Sool was never called Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. I have certificates sent by him from Korea in the 60's that prove otherwise. On visits to Korea, I found a ton of vehicles parked outside the Olympic stadium (where we had a Hap Ki Do competition) that bore the name Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. Yet, in an interview with Tedeschi, Suh claims it wa NEVER called that. We know different.

As founder/president of NKMAA, I get a lot of inquiries and applications. Many are rejected because I do not recognize the sources from which they originated (and that includes any Hap Ki Do certificates from GM Porter). I know he is/was an excellent Judoka, but IMHO he is not qualified to grant rank in our art. Hence, I follow my own belief and reject these aps at a considerable economical cost to our association.

Similarly, I have rejected an application from a group that was shortly after accepted by one of our peers. IMHO, the applicant showed good Jiu Jitsu technique, but I could not and would not transfer that into a Hap Ki Do certificate... again at a considerable economic cost to NKMAA. This particular rejection was simply because I SAW that the technique in the video set was not Hap Ki Do. Same reason I suggested folks take a look at GM Seo's technique. If, after watching, you still feel he does not do Hap Ki Do you no longer need to wonder about his background... you simply KNOW for yourself what you must believe.

I could care less that someone else accepted the very same people I rejected. They did what they had to do, and I followed MY heart. IMHO, who is right and who is wrong makes no difference to most others in the arts. I am not the all knowing, I simply know what I want in NKMAA I walk my talk right or wrong, and I know I make mistakes. I just do my best to learn from them, and I will not demean anyone who trains differently than I do just because it is different. Hopefully that is a step toward brotherhood in the martial arts, 'cause I surely hate to see us continue to bicker.

If it turns out that Kevin does not believe GM Seo does Hap Ki Do, that is not a problem for me. I will continue to respect him for the person I understand him to be (from reading his posts). IMHO, raising a point should never be considered a threat, and talking trash is not an option for folks who love martial arts. The reason I no longer follow GM Suh (WKSA) is because I do not like his business practices and ethics; however, I will always respect his skills as a martial artist, and his son Suh Sung Jin is about the most skilled practitioner I have ever seen (oh to be young again. Oddly enough, his formative years in the arts were under the tutelage of his Unlce GM Seo.

 

[American HKD]

Perhaps I should have read ALL of the posts, before I began working the ones I had missed due to our week of training and promotion here. At first I though we had a great discussion going, but now it seems like it has turned once more in the same old BS that is so detrimental to our arts.

Why is it that we cannot have a civil discussion???? Kevin had a legitimate question, we had some good debate, I was learning to see it the way some others viewed it (so the entire thread was a good learning experience for me), and suddenly we are at it again.

Like I said, the "go train" with the man (in either Seo or Ji's case) is not a challenge. I (at least) was simply suggesting that a "trained eye" should be able to SEE if the person is doing Hap Ki Do or not. Nothing to do with what an art is called, just a simple way to check the validity of the roots of our art.

Suh (not Seo) has a reason why he claims that Kuk Sool was never called Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. I have certificates sent by him from Korea in the 60's that prove otherwise. On visits to Korea, I found a ton of vehicles parked outside the Olympic stadium (where we had a Hap Ki Do competition) that bore the name Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do. Yet, in an interview with Tedeschi, Suh claims it wa NEVER called that. We know different.

As founder/president of NKMAA, I get a lot of inquiries and applications. Many are rejected because I do not recognize the sources from which they originated (and that includes any Hap Ki Do certificates from GM Porter). I know he is/was an excellent Judoka, but IMHO he is not qualified to grant rank in our art. Hence, I follow my own belief and reject these aps at a considerable economical cost to our association.

Similarly, I have rejected an application from a group that was shortly after accepted by one of our peers. IMHO, the applicant showed good Jiu Jitsu technique, but I could not and would not transfer that into a Hap Ki Do certificate... again at a considerable economic cost to NKMAA. This particular rejection was simply because I SAW that the technique in the video set was not Hap Ki Do. Same reason I suggested folks take a look at GM Seo's technique. If, after watching, you still feel he does not do Hap Ki Do you no longer need to wonder about his background... you simply KNOW for yourself what you must believe.

I could care less that someone else accepted the very same people I rejected. They did what they had to do, and I followed MY heart. IMHO, who is right and who is wrong makes no difference to most others in the arts. I am not the all knowing, I simply know what I want in NKMAA I walk my talk right or wrong, and I know I make mistakes. I just do my best to learn from them, and I will not demean anyone who trains differently than I do just because it is different. Hopefully that is a step toward brotherhood in the martial arts, 'cause I surely hate to see us continue to bicker.

If it turns out that Kevin does not believe GM Seo does Hap Ki Do, that is not a problem for me. I will continue to respect him for the person I understand him to be (from reading his posts). IMHO, raising a point should never be considered a threat, and talking trash is not an option for folks who love martial arts. The reason I no longer follow GM Suh (WKSA) is because I do not like his business practices and ethics; however, I will always respect his skills as a martial artist, and his son Suh Sung Jin is about the most skilled practitioner I have ever seen (oh to be young again. Oddly enough, his formative years in the arts were under the tutelage of his Unlce GM Seo.

Dear Rudy,

I agree with you in the case of Sensei Porter giving someone rank in an art he's not qualified to give.

I posted that article to show that sometimes there's a need for variations and deviations of standards for the right reasons.

 

[glad2bhere]

I have been over this string a few times and the best that I can point out is not what is said but what is NOT said and is communicated (or interpretted) by implication. The original question cannot be answered without indicting the person identified. We ALL know what the implications of this string are about. This is not the first time we have been over this ground. Rank and standing have been the 500# gorrilla that visits every one of these discussions. The pattern is always the same.

a. Someone is singled out and his vitae is called into question.

b. People take sides.

c. Then the fight is on to see who is "more authentic", "more genuine" or "more legitimate" than others.

d. It always comes back to the some subjective crap based on how something is defined, or what is included by one person that is left out by another.

This is the fourth string in a row that I have pointed out that we in the Hapkido community are better served by amplifying and stressing our similarities than pointing up how we are different, but its falling on deaf ears, and I see no reason to think it will be any different this time. People seem to like pointing up that they are special and that they are different and because of that difference they are somehow special. I would go so far as to say that is where I get most of my "nasti-grams". People figure that I am putting myself in some rarified area above everyone else. Is anyone else here familiar with the concept of "projection"?

I'll hazard yet another guess to say that folks here seem to like the conflict since it gives them novelty they would not otherwise have. Instead of ending conflict as the art supposes these Hapkido practitioners "accidently" feed it for all their worth. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

the Hapkido community are better served by amplifying and stressing our similarities than pointing up how we are different

I could not agree more,Bruce!

And as an aside....would it really change anything if we had rock solid evidence that Choi never trained with Takeda,or Myung was only a 2nd Dan in actuality,or Ji learned from a drunken goat and ..........

I am not one for calling in credibility attacks or defending them for that matter....what YOU can DO on and off the mat....that speaks volumes to me.

 

[kwanjang]

... The original question cannot be answered without indicting the person identified. We ALL know what the implications of this string are about. This is not the first time we have been over this ground. Rank and standing have been the 500# gorrilla that visits every one of these discussions. The pattern is always the same.

a. Someone is singled out and his vitae is called into question.

b. People take sides.

c. Then the fight is on to see who is "more authentic", "more genuine" or "more legitimate" than others.

d. It always comes back to the some subjective crap based on how something is defined, or what is included by one person that is left out by another....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce. I don't think folks in the beginning of this thread were casting stones... at least I did not take it that way. I surely did not come to the defense of GM Seo, as I am sure he does not need my help there. I just suggested that one take a look to see what he can do. I would say the same about GM Ji or anyone else. Have doubts about someone's rank in a particular art, go look see. I personally never worry about what others call the art I teach, because I simply continue on what I have been taught regardless of what others think. Heck, it is all I know, and after fifty some years it is not possible for me to do anything else lol.

If folks like JR, after looking me over on the mat at a Wisconsin seminar (I went to in order to learn from him), thinks I am a "Player" then so much better for me. Had he said I was a fraud, my teaching would not have changed one iota to please him. I am who I am because of the lessons I learned, and nothing can change that. GM Suh felt I needed to go down two ranks, and that never bothered me. I simply went down two ranks in order to learn what he had to teach. If we did not worry so much about rank, perhaps we could focus more on training. I have always carried my white belt with me, and I still do because I have lots more to learn.

BTW, that is the main reason I have not chimed in on the "standardization" efforts you folks are working on. I am not sure I have anything worth while to contribute, and I am still looking over what is being said there before opening my mouth and inserting my size 12.

I feel that much of the problems stem from not being clear what is being said in our posts on forums, and people take offense before realizing no one is being offended. I see many times where (after some discussions that look like they are turning into battles) suddenly the intent of our message become clearer, and we realize that essentially we ARE at par with our thinking. Forums like this are great, but they do have some draw backs.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think some people get mixed up on what I have said about Ji! I am sure Ji has a great amount of skill in what he does. My interest has always been DJN Choi's style of Hapkido not Ji's. My reasoning is simple, Ji did not spend much time with Choi. If I wanted to learn Choi's complete art would I go to 3 year student or try to find a Master that had trained longer? When I think of Hapkido I break it down into 2 major branches, Original - Choi and
Sin Moo - Ji. My training is very focused on Choi's style of Hapkido so if I am going to take funds away from my trips to Korea I have to be very selective. This is just my training shcedule and I am very happy with it as I have learned a great deal from my teacher and have much more to learn.

I am always open to getting on the matt with other practitioners wheather they be Hapkido, Kuk Sool or any other art. I know that when we get together for training and leve egos at the door we often develope freindships. This is always been my goal and will continually be very important to me.

Thoughts

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