Hapkido - Tang Soo Do link

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

And if I can add to your thought, it does NOT help when influential people, say the leaders of some arts, come across with the idea that what you are describing IS possible. It does NOT help when people who only want to use a martial art in some sort of competitive venue teach the simple physical aspect of the most basic techniques and then deride anything that moves deeper into the art as a whole. It does NOT help when other people learn the basic physical execution of even more sophisticated material and then deride any examination of that same material from a more sophisticated level.

There was a recent exchange on E-BUDO Net regarding a personality who has represented himself as a DRAJJ teacher but who is apparently not generally recognized by the DRAJJ community. The arguement seems to be that while this persons' execution appears to be DRAJJ when observed from afar, it may not be incorporating the aspects of DRAJJ in its actual method. I think that Hapkido arts generally suffer from exactly the same issue. People do not regard the Hapkido arts as arts. Instead they seem to see the Hapkido arts as some nebulous conglomeration of whatever they put together. Personally, I think this is the reason that most Hapkido organizations and their material never gets beyond the "yu sool" level of training. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

Rudy,

Well said, the need for all arts to remain progressive and to develop is a must, however as you feel and as I do, the need to remain true to tradition is also a must.

Todd,

I agree with you entirely that sticking to the path will bear the fruits of hard and corect training. Too many seek the quick fix, or to be world champion or to earn $50,000 a year from a martial art. None of this is worng for that individual, but it is not the art that is being studied any more.

Regards

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Bruce, Todd, and Moo D:
I totally agree with your ideas. I just want to make sure I have a chance to "introduce" folks to traditional martial arts before they leave for some McDojang before I have a chance to "convert" them

 

[Moo D]

Best of luck Kwang Jang Nim in your quest.

Unfortunatley, it seems that the 'quick fix' and 'cross training' are the demand of many, where a lifetime of study is just too long.

Give me the lifetime study any day!!

:asian:

Regards,

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Moo D:
I hear you, but then there are always the good students with an attitude like you have.

 

[glad2bhere]

FWIW:

I personally have come to believe that there is a special "blessing" hidden inside the idea of not working for a large financial return on ones' KMA efforts.

For my part I have been teaching for some 6 years now and have yet to spend money on rent or a lease, lights, heat or all of the other big expenditures including advertising. People know who I am and a great deal of the time I go to where they are (along with a truck full of folding mats and other equiptment) and we have a session. Some of those sessions have turned into on-going classes. Sometimes I get compensated gas or taken out to dinner. Mostly I don't and I spend more than a little time sleeping on someones' couch in lieu of getting a hotel room. I mentor two Hapkido clubs at the local junior college and also teach a survey course on the Hapkido arts to the tune of about $600US a semester. The reason I share all of this is to say that I think that THIS is the way the Hapkido arts need to be practiced. One does not need a big school and a hundred students. Why should I want to support a real estate company,Ill Gas or Edison Electric. On the other hand the folks who invite me in don't have to be sold on what I have to share and there is no threat of having to make a long-term committment. If they lose interest or have gotten their fill, they just stop asking me back.

I guess I share all of this just as a counterpoint to all of the big commercial-driven stuff that turns up so often. Most MA teachers across a range of arts usually taught out of a backroom in their shop, or clinic or even their house--- and that includes people like Yong Sul Choi, himself! I support the idea of an itinerant teacher going to where people have expressed an interest rather than sitting in one spot waiting for somebody to walk in the door of a studio. The only trick I have found to all of this is to make sure that you are honestly commited to having people learn---- and they know this is true about you. IMVVHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

Bruce,

Another excellent post, the real point of all MA's to to enlighten and free the spirit. Your post has shown that you are well on the way to this, I wish that all MA's, organizations, federations, clubs, etc.. would unite and understand what you have posted.

Best Wishes,

 

[Moo D]

Kwang Jang Nim, :asian:

Many thanks for your kind words sir. I am but a student of the MA's and of life, in which I aim to learn and give where required.

Tang Soo!!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

and that includes people like Yong Sul Choi, himself! I support the idea of an itinerant teacher going to where people have expressed an interest rather than sitting in one spot waiting for somebody to walk in the door of a studio.

I think the important thing is: Where is the Instructors heart? It is not wrong to be paid to teach desired skills or to pay to learn those skills!

There are many in the Martial Arts bussiness that are in it to make money and those are pretty easy to identify with some research!

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[Moo D]

I agree Master Todd,

Everyone must earn a living in this society. Unfortunately, in the world today, the necessity to earn money to live is a must. However, you are right in saying that those who are only in MA to make money are easy to identify.

You should be paid to teach MA, however, the humble person should only take what is necessary to live.

regards,

 

[kwanjang]

Interesting views and subject. I have had a "commercial" school for thirty years now (if having a storefront means commercial). All of this time, this school has just met its obligations, and there was never enough left over to pay the teacher... it is still like that today.

Now that I am on workers comp. (a mere pittance), and I am on the downside of my lifespan, I rely on doing seminars to earn SOME money (I only charge about a third of what most other Masters charge) to supplement the income I derive from rent I charge to my school. I could in all likelihood get more if I rented to someone else, and I would also not be the one left out when the bills are larger than the income. Yet, I keep on doing it because I love what I do. I am not crying the blues here, it WAS my choice to teach martial arts, and I KNEW the pay in our area would not amount to much.

As I look ahead, I can see clearly that I will be on poverty row while my students for the most part are living in relative comfort. My wife took the high road long ago, because martial art life IS rough on families. No one to blame here, I WAS in the arts before we maried, and I told her how it was. Hence, I don't blame myself. I also don't blame her, because I can clearly see teaching martial arts (the way I teach) is NOT for a married couple.

Why am I sharing such personal information? Well, I have never been one to worry about what anyone thinks of me, so tarnishing my image is of no concern. I DO want to share it with others who might follow a similar path, and I caution you against it. The way Bruce and I would LIKE to teach is simply not realistic unless you have a full time job that pays for your expense. You and I both know that NOT having a full time job does bring many problems to the table, especially if this is a long term situation.

Last. Teaching martial arts is IMHO an honorable profession, and good Instructors do a lot of good in this world. Why is it that we must look old age in the face without the luxury of a pension? Why does this honorable job not provide enough sustenance to keep a family together? Why is it that the very people to whom we teach our beloved art forget about us when we are no longer able to do 6' high spinning kicks. If you can give me some positive answers to these questions, I'll perhaps encourage folks to teach martial art for the love of it. Until then, I say DON'T, unless you are prepared to live the last years of your life in poverty and alone.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello All,

I'm sorry, but what is all this "take only what you need grasshopper" crap - the fact is that a good instructor is a good instructor - regardless of what he is paid. Choi, Yong Sul charged different prices for different students - some paid a lot more that others - some got paid to help out around his dojang.

Getting paid well is good business, it allows schools to grow - period. Cut out this pitiful "I am the poor instructor stuff" - that is your decision, based I think on watching too many episodes of "Kung Fu" in re-runs.

America - where I live is a capitalist country, nothing is free here, my school will grow only if I can support it and myself, and why not live well in the process?

If you want to teach for free and support yourself with another job, great, but for those of us that want to live from the proceeds from teaching because we do that well, don't assume we are belt mills or McDojangs - that is simply not the case.

"Take only what you need" was tried - and failed in the USSR - I'll stick to the good old fashioned American model - be fair, sell well, control costs and everyone is happy.

The fantasy model of the travelling instructor that trained people for food and fought for the good of the community is a great pipe dream or television series - but it is a lousy way to run a business and try to live.

A bankrupt instructor is good for no one, himself or his students since he cannot run a school let alone be prepared to teach in one...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

Mr. Sogor writes:
snip< Cut out this pitiful "I am the poor instructor stuff" - that is your decision, based I think on watching too many episodes of "Kung Fu" in re-runs. > end snip

FWIW, I neither complained nor insinuated I support the grasshopper theory. I do what I do because I love it. You do what you do, and more power to you if it makes you rich. I simply wanted to make sure people don't start off on the same path I chose without giving them some stark reality. BTW, I really don't have time to watch TV.

 

[Moo D]

Mr Sogor,

No one here has said that you should not be paid for what you teach. What is being discussed here is the responsibility as a MA to live what is preached. I have been involved in Martial Arts for around 15 years and have never been taught Marketing and Business Management as part of my training. If it was in there then fine and many profitable schools I would have. But my training has been in martial skills and self development, and I CHOSE not to make a large amount of money from MA's but to give freely to my students and only cover the costs for the dojang. This is my understanding of the 'way'.

This is not to say that if people want to make a lot of money from MA's they can, however they should give a lot in return. This will balance their karma.

MA's are a way of life, not only a vocation.IMHO.

regards,

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

A few interesting points have been brought up, so what the heck, I'll respond.

You are both right, kwanjang and moo d that it is very important to give back to students, but STOP making it seem like training and teaching is for monks - giving is one thing - but to do it without the ability to live is silly.

And yes, Hapkido is a way, but frankly, I never had to have any instructor tell me how to live - I got that at home - honesty, integrity, perseverance, were all well learned lessons before I stepped into a dojang - and I make it clear to my students that I am no paragon of virtue - I just do my best - if they choose to follow my example, I will lead as best I am able.

Finally, Business classes are not generally part of a martial curriculum, but if you plan on running a successful business, where your students can come back for years, maybe it would behoove you to take a few classes in commerce.

Commercial instruction pays to live and train, it also pays for those students who cannot afford to pay. You cannot preach giving back until you have the ability to donate...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

Mr. Sogor:
I guess I did not make my post clear enough. I also advocated people to think twice before teaching martial arts for a pittance. Just because I happen to do so, does not mean that I believe I am right. It is just a nasty habit left over from teaching it as a hobby. I not only believe that a good Instructor should make a decent living, I also believe that a student who does not pay (or pay enough) most often is one who does not appreciate the art and/or its teachers. Just my experience with that.

As far as learning business practices. I went back to University at age 52, and I did so for two reasons. One was to learn more about Exercise Science, and the other was to get a minor in business. I graduated with a B.Sc. at age 56 with a 3.56 average, applied what I learned about proper exercise in my classes, and apparently threw all I learned about business right out the window (because I am still teaching like it is my hobby.

FWIW. I also don't think much about quasi Instructors who ask a lot of money for teaching crap they don't even understand the principles of... let alone good martial art technique. I believe some of the comments made here were adressed to the likes of that, and I do agree with that opinion. IMHO, these "Instructors" take unsuspecting consumers to the cleaners and turn them off martial arts forever. This is as much of a problem as the problems you mentioned in another thread about bad organizations that make good Instructors look silly.

 

[dosandojang]

Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman will NEVER sell out...And he will continue to be rewarded for his good heart and mind because of this fact....

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think Kwang Jang Timmerman hit on an important point that has been hashed and rehashed! Teachers that teach without proper understanding of an arts principles are most often the ones with the McDojangs and belt mills! This is bad for the Mudo community!

A good instructor desearves to be paid for there knowledge and experience and guidence. The sad truth is that it takes money to keep dojangs openand good instructors around for the next generation.

I think we all have to ask the question "Am I being fair to my students, my family, my dojang, my art and myself?"

This is always tough for true mudoin but very important for keeping balence.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

I have kinda lost track with where I fit in here but I thought I would make sure that folks knew that I was not disputing the role of paid instruction. Certainly if a person offers a good product and can induce people to pay a living wage for it, I say "more power to them". The view I was pressing was that historically this has not been the case and that the model has been closer to MA instruction as avocation than as vocation. Taken a step farther I have seen more cases of commercial teachers diluting their curriculum, even their art, in an effort to sell their services. Most schools I am familiar with sooner or later become ersatz "day care centers" in which young childeren are recruited for after-school programs and lesser versions of the art are organized to create the impression that the young child is learning a grown-up art. As I have read in other posts, even in Korea the majority of practitioners are children rather than adults yet the art remains an adult art and is not appropriate for children in its true form. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

I think my post may have been lacking in understanding. Bluntly, I was saying that for me personally I like to follow the virtues as I have become accustomed to in TSD and make a humble living from teaching, earning only what I need to carry on teaching. The key is that I choose to do this, and not that everyone should follow this.

There is no problem with someone earning a lot of money from MA's but the responsibility I was talking about is regards to the quality of instruction given. I agree with KJN Timmermand and Bruce on this. This has become an interesting diversion from the original thread. Should we pick this up on a new thread????

:idunno:

Regards,