Where do they get rank?

[American HKD]

I think some people get mixed up on what I have said about Ji! I am sure Ji has a great amount of skill in what he does. My interest has always been DJN Choi's style of Hapkido not Ji's. My reasoning is simple, Ji did not spend much time with Choi. If I wanted to learn Choi's complete art would I go to 3 year student or try to find a Master that had trained longer? When I think of Hapkido I break it down into 2 major branches, Original - Choi and
Sin Moo - Ji. My training is very focused on Choi's style of Hapkido so if I am going to take funds away from my trips to Korea I have to be very selective. This is just my training shcedule and I am very happy with it as I have learned a great deal from my teacher and have much more to learn.

I am always open to getting on the matt with other practitioners wheather they be Hapkido, Kuk Sool or any other art. I know that when we get together for training and leve egos at the door we often develope freindships. This is always been my goal and will continually be very important to me.

Thoughts

www.millersmudo.com

Dear Todd,

What I hear you saying is I have no problem with Ji then throw in he only learned for 3 years which seems like a backhanded dig. I can deal with it.

Let me make a suggestion.

Get a hold of some DVDs of Ji students or student of students like Chong Soo Lee it's Hapkido demo & instructional at it's best. Turtle press produced it.

I doubt you'll have much to say about the quality of Ji's Art or what he learned or didn't learn in 3 years which I believe is really 7 years plus.

BTW the only difference between Sin Moo and what Ji taught back in Korea is on the philosophical side not technical.

Your thoughts would be welcome after that.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Thinking about what you wrote, I wonder if we are banging up against a certain limit with this sort of communication venue. For instance, following your post I likewise read Todds' and then Stuarts. The first time through Todds' post I didn't see a "dig" such as Stuart mentioned. Then, I went back looking for the "dig" and could then readily see it when I re-read Todds' post with a different critical eye. I can't say that Todd did, or did not mean a dig. I only know that when I went through his post objectively I didn't see a dig and when I went through the same post more critically, I did.

I think the same thing holds true for my position on Ji as a teacher. I hold that I was not that impressed with his teaching ability. I still hold this. I found him poorly organized and that his teaching method was superficial and inadequate for the subject he was teaching and the students he was presenting to. I have long since been personally attacked, and chided for critiquing one of the premier personages in Hapkido. No such thing is taking place, but like my experience just now with Todds' post I think people are going to see and hear what they are looking for. In my own heart I know that I was as objective with Jis' teachig skills as I have been at least a hundred times with staff members and student teachers. I can also tell you that Ji is not the first time that I have run into a person who is extraordinarily knowledgeable about his subject but inadequate in teaching that material to others. I have also found people who were excellent teachers but had a very poor grasp of their subject. It happens. What I am considering is that people in the Hapkido community have been contencious for so long that they have lost their objectivity about the subject. I suspect that this has gone so far that even the briefest comment that even "smells" of criticism is met with an overwhelming abreaction. (Witness: Tomlinsons' earlier behavior). We have a great venue here to communicate, but I wonder if folks are really up to this, Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......Get a hold of some DVDs of Ji students or student of students like Chong Soo Lee it's Hapkido demo & instructional at it's best. Turtle press produced it.

I doubt you'll have much to say about the quality of Ji's Art or what he learned or didn't learn in 3 years which I believe is really 7 years plus.

BTW the only difference between Sin Moo and what Ji taught back in Korea is on the philosophical side not technical.

Your thoughts would be welcome after that......"

OK. And given what you said, after viewing Ji or his student (s) on the floor or in a DVD, what if I am still not impressed? What if I simply have viewed Ji doing his material and found him "less". My own teacher was one of Ji's students and does an extraordinary job teaching. Essentially the same material but taught with a better method. I guess I am not understanding why you are unable or unwilling to discuss the relative skills and material of one personality with another without getting so protective. Is it possibly that you simply cannot explain objectively how Ji is "better". Maybe part of the problem is your own need for one thing to be "better" than another, yes? Can it possibly be that there are simply not that many opportunities to connect with momentous individuals in your life so that when you finally do meet such a person you are overwhelmed by their reputation? Just some odd thoughts, FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MDFJ]

I think there has been some good discussion here amongst people getting a little upset and defensive... :jedi1:

I personally try to remember that saying: "you cant please all of the people all of the time..." As Instructors we all have our own teaching material and teaching technique, our own beliefs etc.. I know that not every Student will like my approach to teaching, but I also know many do.

If Bruce did not like Ji's teaching method that's Bruce's opinion and he is entitled to it as we are all entitled to ours.

In many places (NOT just here) I have witnessed many Intollerance of other styles, beliefs, opinions, kwans, approaches etc etc surrounding the same martial art and other martial art styles...

To me this level of "Im right, your wrong" Intollerance can border on descrimination which if it were on any other subject such as religion or race would cause World Wars 3,4,5 & 6

The question of "removing" people whom AN individual or any Group of individuals do not agree with, Policing what is Right and what is Wrong...
If the same were done with someones religous beliefs or their race it would be called Ethnic Cleansing.

Politics...
Proving someone else wrong does not automatically make you right.

I do not believe this is the Martial Art way.

I am not pointing any fingers, there are many great people on here and I am not anyone special who should be listened to, I have no intention of telling people how it should be... I just want to ask that people see where I come from with complete respect for everyones difference and individuality, wouldnt the forum and indeed the world be a slightly better place if a few more people had a little more tollerance.?

Back on subject a bit...

Surely anyone who creates a style will have an almost "illegitimate" rank history compared to their students.. My situation is no different, I decided to develop my own style and as such there is no one who can ever actually give me "legitimate" rank in that style, except me.

So in theory, my own students ranks are more "legitimate" than mine, they have learnt the style from it's founder and been assessed and awarded grade by it's founder, their own students will in turn have authentic Lineage.

so ANY founder of ANY style.. gave out authentic Rank, and people who learnt either directly from them or with direct lineage to them feel they have "legitimate" lineage, rank and position.

But who gave the founder their rank...?

I know some hold high ranks in other similar styles, some do not...

MY own opinion and indeed intention for my own rank progression is simply to continue to study, I may continue to advance through Dan grades in other similar styles, but not that this will hold relevance to the grade I hold in my own style. I will continue to progress at a pace of progression that I would expect one of my own students to follow if/when they reach the same grade.. I was offered 5th Dan last year, and refused it as I thought it was just a little too early. If my students and peers offer me that recognition again in the future I am sure I would graciously accept it with the view that it is awarded for contribution as many high Dan grades are.

Some people in my position have jumped from the 2nd / 3rd Dan they held in one style to the 10th Dan they held in their own style... They decided to go that way... If people think they are being a little egotistical then OK, but just because someone claimed a high rank for themselves, does this make them a poor Practitioner or Instructor?

Some people Inflate their Ego in other ways, they win ONE organisations Competition and claim to be a National or World Champion..?!?

When we do demonstrations, do we not try to look as good as we can..? some people might call this "showing-off" ?


But is it all Ego? In many places including USA there are many commercial schools all trying to sell their product.. So perhaps some of these people are just trying to boost their product image...
Be fair, many products are a little over-zealous in their claims.. "Whiter than white-whites" "unblocks the sink in a flash"

Sounds great on the advert, but when people get it home they realise it doesnt perform so well.

Hopefully anyone who buys a Martial Arts "product" will recognise IF they have a sub-standard product.


Just MY thoughts, FWIW


Marc

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Marc:

Too many good thoughts to comment on them all. Nice job.

For myself, I often hear some vague need for validation, or corroboration but it is SO vague that it is almost impossible to describe it. In many posts I hear that people want to be recognized for their place in the Hapkido community, and for what they have contributed. Many times I hear the intolerance that I think you are speaking of because what ONE person thinks is valuable, and is the foundation of their standing in the community, is not valued by others. This is sad, and difficult, because most of us conclude that we are all in the same community, share many of the same characteristics and techniques so it would seem to follow that we share the same values, opinions and beliefs. When this turns out not to be the case, the knee-jerk reaction seems to be that if one,or a couple,of these beliefs aren't shared, than NOTHING is shared and it remains only to say that "I am right and you are wrong". How does this fit with your idea of intolerance or discrimination? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".......Get a hold of some DVDs of Ji students or student of students like Chong Soo Lee it's Hapkido demo & instructional at it's best. Turtle press produced it.

I doubt you'll have much to say about the quality of Ji's Art or what he learned or didn't learn in 3 years which I believe is really 7 years plus.

BTW the only difference between Sin Moo and what Ji taught back in Korea is on the philosophical side not technical.

Your thoughts would be welcome after that......"

OK. And given what you said, after viewing Ji or his student (s) on the floor or in a DVD, what if I am still not impressed? What if I simply have viewed Ji doing his material and found him "less". My own teacher was one of Ji's students and does an extraordinary job teaching. Essentially the same material but taught with a better method. I guess I am not understanding why you are unable or unwilling to discuss the relative skills and material of one personality with another without getting so protective. Is it possibly that you simply cannot explain objectively how Ji is "better". Maybe part of the problem is your own need for one thing to be "better" than another, yes? Can it possibly be that there are simply not that many opportunities to connect with momentous individuals in your life so that when you finally do meet such a person you are overwhelmed by their reputation? Just some odd thoughts, FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

I'm not saying Ji is better or worse than anybody else, but what I am saying is the skills he's passing on are 1st class skills and the foundation of almost every Hapkdoist out there like it or not.

Some of his students are not so good, some are good and some very good and some very very good, but that's not unique to Ji's SinMoo all teachers and organizations have balck belts with varying abilities.

As far as his teaching style goes in my opinion it's not geared for beginers or for one timers. He teaches in a seminar type fashion with a lot of material put out quickly if you don't have a good foundation or can't ask the right questions when you need to alot will pass you by. IMO to learn from Ji you have to attend many, many, many seminars over time until you get it the whole picture.

I have known Ji Han Jae for over twenty years and have spent days with him as his chauffer when I was a 1st Dan in 1983, however I only been training with him for going on a year now. Through his teachings I feel my Hapkido is has really grown and it's a great honor for me to learn under him regardless of what people say about him or how he runs his affairs FWIW.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

OK, then the question actually comes down to a very simple one, doesn't it? How does one who shares the practice of an art (or, say, a branch of that art) dissent from public opinion, or, say, the commonly held opinion of most folks, and not incur disenfranchisement or alienation for holding that belief?

Using Rudy for a minute (Sorry, Rudy) but lets suppose that I am attending KMAA functions and I watch Rudy teach a module and I decide that what he is teaching is somehow not quite right. Whatismore, suppose I am asked my opinion and I lay it out for everyone to see and hear. Now I would bet a bag of Krispy Kreme Donuts that Rudy would have no problem, but what about the raft of $*** I would probably get from his loyal and adoring (?) fans?

Let me also approach this a bit differently. In training with the five hyung that we use in the Yon Mu Kwan I have noted some clear deficits. To make a long story short, the kebonsu are simply not universally expressed in the hyung, as only 4 of the 10 can be identified. So I choose to modify the hyung to include all ten kebonsu. Ordinarily this would be an issue between myself and GM Myung,but as I am well-known for my conservative take on KMA I suddenly find myself the focus of a very public crucifixion.

I know a lot of people would probably say that its just people being people so suck it up or keep your freaking mouth shut. But what sort of option IS that?!? Isn't this why we don't get a lot more participation? Isn't it because people would like to speak their minds but simply don't want the grief so they say nothing? I don't view myself as some sort of hero. I just think that people ought to be able to voice an opinion or a view without being burned-out for it, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

OK, then the question actually comes down to a very simple one, doesn't it? How does one who shares the practice of an art (or, say, a branch of that art) dissent from public opinion, or, say, the commonly held opinion of most folks, and not incur disenfranchisement or alienation for holding that belief?

Using Rudy for a minute (Sorry, Rudy) but lets suppose that I am attending KMAA functions and I watch Rudy teach a module and I decide that what he is teaching is somehow not quite right. Whatismore, suppose I am asked my opinion and I lay it out for everyone to see and hear. Now I would bet a bag of Krispy Kreme Donuts that Rudy would have no problem, but what about the raft of $*** I would probably get from his loyal and adoring (?) fans?

Let me also approach this a bit differently. In training with the five hyung that we use in the Yon Mu Kwan I have noted some clear deficits. To make a long story short, the kebonsu are simply not universally expressed in the hyung, as only 4 of the 10 can be identified. So I choose to modify the hyung to include all ten kebonsu. Ordinarily this would be an issue between myself and GM Myung,but as I am well-known for my conservative take on KMA I suddenly find myself the focus of a very public crucifixion.

I know a lot of people would probably say that its just people being people so suck it up or keep your freaking mouth shut. But what sort of option IS that?!? Isn't this why we don't get a lot more participation? Isn't it because people would like to speak their minds but simply don't want the grief so they say nothing? I don't view myself as some sort of hero. I just think that people ought to be able to voice an opinion or a view without being burned-out for it, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

People should be able to communicate with each other, but just like Hapkido skills some are better than others.

We all need to try harder to get along. but there's no solution or we'd all be robots.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I wish I could write it off like that but somehow its just not the same. When I was a kid caddying out on the local Golf Course I never heard anything like
"you have graphite shafts-- YOU SUCK!" Its very much like what Marc was saying earlier. Were we to conduct ourselves as is done in any other arena people would come down on us like a ton of bricks. Its almost like a "brand loyalty" but somehow worse because in the end its all about the same subjectivity over and over again. At least if we were talking about Chevy versus Ford a person could take things out onto a dragstrip and prove a point. In the old days I guess people could have fought duels, maybe. But unless people are willing to fight to the death to prove a point such matters remain hypothetical and that is why I keep coming back to this theme.

1.) Whatever people are trying to represent as absolute will never actually be proven in fact.

2.) Since the arguments will always be hypothetical what is the actual position to be resolved?

3.) And why are most of the relationships among practitioners continually come back to antagonism rather than reconciliation?

I am left to wonder if martial arts training attracts individuals who unknowingly want to act out conflicts on an "imaginary scale" (in training; in competition) because they are not very good at reconciling conflicts in their own lives. HHmmmm. Gotta think on that one.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Dear Todd,

What I hear you saying is I have no problem with Ji then throw in he only learned for 3 years which seems like a backhanded dig. I can deal with it.

Let me make a suggestion.

Get a hold of some DVDs of Ji students or student of students like Chong Soo Lee it's Hapkido demo & instructional at it's best. Turtle press produced it.

I doubt you'll have much to say about the quality of Ji's Art or what he learned or didn't learn in 3 years which I believe is really 7 years plus.

BTW the only difference between Sin Moo and what Ji taught back in Korea is on the philosophical side not technical.

Your thoughts would be welcome after that.
__________________


Dear Stuart,

I have seen the dvd you are talking about from Turtle Press! IMHO it is demonstration Hapkido. I have worked out with Ji's students & Masters and I feel like I am qualified enough to for an opinion on Ji's style. With that said, The only issues I have with Ji are that before 1986 Ji never claimed anything about being the Founder of Hapkido then after Doju Nim Choi passed away Ji is all of the sudden the Doju Nim of Hapkido and what I here you and other Ji students saying is that Choi taught Yawara not Hapkido?

I have no doubt that Ji has a great deal of skill but in no way do I believe he learned the total art the Founder taught and this is not meant as a dig so please do not make it into somthing it is not.

I am of the belief that we all try to train together without egos and then people even Hapkidoin develope freindships and lasting relationships. Talk goes only so far then we have to practice what we preach. Again sorry if there was offense taken by any of my posts. :asian:

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

".......I have seen the dvd you are talking about from Turtle Press! IMHO it is demonstration Hapkido. I have worked out with Ji's students & Masters and I feel like I am qualified enough to for an opinion on Ji's style. With that said, The only issues I have with Ji are that before 1986 Ji never claimed anything about being the Founder of Hapkido then after Doju Nim Choi passed away Ji is all of the sudden the Doju Nim of Hapkido and what I here you and other Ji students saying is that Choi taught Yawara not Hapkido?....."

I apologize for stepping in here between you and Stuart in your discussion but you post is a good example of what I have been talking about. I am wondering if you are hearing the vague mix of technical criticism interwoven with political opinion. Your point on "demonstartion hapkido" may be well-founded (I don't know. I have not seen this presentation.) and you go on to mention that you are qualified to have an opinion on his STYLE. However, then you go on to speak NOT to the technique, nor the way that it is presented, but to the political underpinnings for it. To my way of thinking this is exactly how we start down the wrong road. For my part I feel I can adequately critique Ji (or any other teacher) in terms of presentation, use of media, organization and most other teaching qualities. Do I have an opinion about JI- the Man? Sure, but that has little to do with how his skills are when he is teaching a group of individuals. If you want to critique the presentation you saw, I would love to hear it, but I think that you have demonstrated where we tend to go wrong in these discussions. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MDFJ]

Dear Marc:

Too many good thoughts to comment on them all. Nice job.

For myself, I often hear some vague need for validation, or corroboration but it is SO vague that it is almost impossible to describe it. In many posts I hear that people want to be recognized for their place in the Hapkido community, and for what they have contributed. Many times I hear the intolerance that I think you are speaking of because what ONE person thinks is valuable, and is the foundation of their standing in the community, is not valued by others. This is sad, and difficult, because most of us conclude that we are all in the same community, share many of the same characteristics and techniques so it would seem to follow that we share the same values, opinions and beliefs. When this turns out not to be the case, the knee-jerk reaction seems to be that if one,or a couple,of these beliefs aren't shared, than NOTHING is shared and it remains only to say that "I am right and you are wrong". How does this fit with your idea of intolerance or discrimination? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Thanks

I totally agree with what you said there, It would seem from the outset that From the big picture down to the little picture we seem to share much in common, but if something happens to upset this shared belief/ideas then people are ready to forget what they do have in common and focus on arguing about who is right... :mp5: :jedi1:

We are all people, many of us have spent significant portions of our lives dedicated to the learning and or teaching of Martial Arts, more specifically Korean Martial Arts, and in most cases the Hapkido Arts, and however much what we do differs, I honestly would like to think that we each believe we do our very best for our students...

Some differences between Techniques, Kwans, Teachers, Masters, Certificates, Organisations, History, Lineage etc becomes not a simple discusion of,
I do "this", oh you do "that" .. OK, That's cool..

But more an argument that if you do "that" you must be saying that I am wrong to do "this" and "this is right, therfore "that" must be wrong..

I think much gets mis-interpreted in written text, but I also think that the Protection Bubble Bravery syndrome takes effect on a forum in the same way as it does in a car...

If you drive down the road and someone cuts you up, many people would start cursing and swearing like crazy.. :2xBird2: calling the other driver all the names your mama would slap you for saying... However...

If you walked down the road and someone bumped into you, most would turn round and say "oh, excuse me.."

I liked what you said about peoples "standing in the community" and I think that may well have a contibuting factor, they care so much about trying to legitimise themselves and gain the recognition that they feel they deserve that they do not stop and realise they may be alienating their peers from whom they seek this respect and recognition.

It has always been ironically amusing to me to see how much more "fighting" and "dispute" there is between practioners of same/similar arts/styles than amongst those from completely different styles...

You get Hapkido A arguing with Hapkido B so much so to the point of saying "you not real Hapkido, your kwan teaches bad technique, your Master was a fraud who held no legitimate rank... etc etc"

But, You wouldn't get the Hapkido A arguing with Kung Fu R saying "your Kung Fu is weak"

:uhyeah:

I am still waiting for "well my dad could beat your dad up"

Just my thoughts, FWIW

My Very best regards

Marc

 

[glad2bhere]

This could be a critcal point in this discussion. As a Hapkido practitioner, Marc, how would you want me to relate to you? (Please. This is a serious question, not a shot, 'kay?) Let explain a bit and then I would appreciate some feedback from you.

I have about 20 years experience in the Hapkido arts. Not as much as some and more than most. I can trace my particular branch of Hapkido through my teacher, and his teacher, to Choi. I have four books published and another 8 on the way.

Here is my position.

If I am not careful I could get up on a high horse and look down my nose at what you do. I have seen this happen (and been a part of it) with the Combat Hapkido people here in the States. I don't want to do that. I am also not interested in "recruiting" you to an organization, preaching my particular kwan to you, or lauding my curriculum over yours. So here is the question. In a mutually respectful atmosphere not governed by an organization or owing to a common tradition or teacher, what might be our relationship? I know there are conservatives (I admit to being one of them) who might suggest that working with you on any level would be equivalent to giving you status and standing as a Hapkido practitioner that is unearned. I understand that position very well. But now I am positing fraternity among people who share common qualities of an art, or perhaps would like to, I don't know. What would you see the relative roles between two people such as you and I in the Hapkido community without some outside authority to dictate what it "should" be? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MDFJ]

Thanks for your post Bruce, and I do not take it as a pop...

The way I would personally like to be related to/treated by anyone is the same way I would try to relate to/treat them.. Simply as a human being..

Anyone who would "look down" at me must believe they are of a Higher Class or quality than me, but how can this ever be quantified.?

I too have spent 20+ years of my life around Martial Arts, more than some and less than others too.. But if martial arts are a path, a journey, without destination.. Should it matter how far down that path we are? Or even which path we chose..?

If people change how they would talk to me, based simply on any "political situation" then what type of person are they really?

A Racist Hates people becuase of their Skin colour.. What would that Racist do if they lost their Sight? How would they Hate then?

Just my thoughts, FWIW


Marc

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Marc:

".....The way I would personally like to be related to/treated by anyone is the same way I would try to relate to/treat them.. Simply as a human being..

Anyone who would "look down" at me must believe they are of a Higher Class or quality than me, but how can this ever be quantified.? ....."

I know this is hard, but work with me on this. We are both participants in an art which (for better or worse) uses a hierarchy. That would be ONE way to relate to each other.

We are both part of an art which uses skills sets or one sort or another. That would be another way to relate to each other.

We both practice an art that is imbued with Korean culture, which traces its origins back to a discrete group of individuals, and which has a variety of motives and values for its use. These would be other ways to relate to each other.

In case you didn't know I was presented with exactly the same question from KJN Kim when I trained with him in Korea. Since he is in his 70-s and I am in my 50-s he actually asked me how I wanted to relate to him in my role as a student---- as a "son" or as a "younger brother". I know this sounds curious to we westerners but I think this is where a lot of troubles come in. People automatically make assumptions about their relationships without asking first. So I'm asking. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MDFJ]

I think I see what you meant Bruce,

Ok, just using you and me as an example, perhaps you could consider me your Illegitimate cousin

I think the Heirarchy is essential within a given group or structure, when everyone on the ladder behaves according to the same moral code set out. (Not the "Do as I say, not as I do.." mentality )

The problems occur when people believe their position within one group allows them to have the same position over people in another similar group.

Because of what we (the KMA community) share in common we have many ways to Relate to each other, even when discussing our differences, hopefully all in a positive way.

My Best Regards

Marc

 

[glad2bhere]

hhhhhmmmmmm.

Sounds like a mixed message that I have heard before.

I can get along with the idea of having an "illegitimate cousin". Where I am crossed-up is in the role of the hierarchy. I talked with Stuart R. about this sometime back. The idea seems to be that people acknowledge a hierarchy and seem to see a role for it, but usually as a way of structuring some ELSE's behavior. Let me give two examples.

1.) Here in the States the standing joke for parents is to tell a child "no" and then support that with "....cuz I said so." There is the parent-child hierarchy and the parent uses it to control the child.

2.) In Korea a child--- even a young adult--- can be doing something he shouldn't and be told to stop by an elderly person--- "....cuz I said so". The child usually defers to the elderly person because culture dictates a hierarchy.

You and I participate in an art that arguably has a hierarchy, for better or worse. It may be identified (as in example 1) or it may be suggested (example 2). Where are you and I in that hierarchy and how does it play into the way that we relate to each other? People have tried blustering by throwing out their vitae/resumes and certifications and standing for everyone to see. Baased on that I think they expect some sort of absolute deference or regard. It has not worked in the past and its not going to work in the future. So how do we address this issue in a constructive way? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

I
I think the Heirarchy is essential within a given group or structure, when everyone on the ladder behaves according to the same moral code set out. (Not the "Do as I say, not as I do.." mentality )

The problems occur when people believe their position within one group allows them to have the same position over people in another similar group.

Hello all,

The hierarchy is essential to maintain a level of QUALITY within the art. SOmeone with 10 minutes of Hapkido is not the same as a 10year veteran - it is about maintaining standards - not just a pecking order. There is a standard for SIn Moo, Yon Moo Kwan, etc.

Now, I do believe that within this heirarchy there is a certain set of levels of ability, based on longevity and rank. Arts like Shotokan do not have these discussions becasue there is a single head (even in two of three seperate organizations) - and the standard is in their rank. We, in Hapkido, suffer because we have for too long allowed the name to become generic based on the breakdown of a few individuals that as "higher ups" overranked then dumped lots of unqualified Hapkido on the world.

I have always subscribed to the notion that Hapkido came from Choi, Yong Sul. Simple. He had students that got to various levels. These students often went out and started their own organizations - and gave themselves rank - this is OK as long as it is associated as such (as in the case of KSW, and the Seo, Suh brothers) - now, I base my judgement on two criteria, 1. How long did they train with Choi (if at all) and what rank did they receive and 2. How did they position that rank to creat what they teach today.

So, in many cases I do not see all of us in one group telling another what to do. Some are not in this group, while others have a position in it. Now, is it acceptable to have a heirarchy where one group can claim a certain thing - sure, but over another group, not really. The only time this comes into play at all is when the name Hapkido is used to represent things that some of us might not see as Hapkido - then I feel we have a right and obiligation to question and inform.

 

[MDFJ]

Hmm, maybe that is the difference,

If I am understanding what you are saying, A Western child would yeild to the parent, but not neccesarily an older un-related person, their heirarchy extends to their family but to anyone else the response might be "shut up, your not my Father" (If you can imagine an indignant child there )

But that would not be the case with an "Eastern" Child...

So western people living in a western world/society/culture but following an Eastern discipline within their Study of Martial Arts are perhaps caught between the two...? Is that what you meant..?

Interesting thoughts Bruce, Thank you, I have enjoyed this conversation.

My Best Regards

Marc

 

[iron_ox]

Hmm, maybe that is the difference,

If I am understanding what you are saying, A Western child would yeild to the parent, but not neccesarily an older un-related person, their heirarchy extends to their family but to anyone else the response might be "shut up, your not my Father" (If you can imagine an indignant child there )

But that would not be the case with an "Eastern" Child...

So western people living in a western world/society/culture but following an Eastern discipline within their Study of Martial Arts are perhaps caught between the two...? Is that what you meant..?

Interesting thoughts Bruce, Thank you, I have enjoyed this conversation.

My Best Regards

Marc

Interesting point.