Hapkido Q&A's

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"....Other wise I still don't see your point of all this......"

OK. Lets stop right here. I have stated my point in this at least three times and possibly more. Its not my fault if you don't want to hear what I am contributing.

1.) I have identified at least 6 "traditions". I put that term in quotes because, based on the way you folks are defining things you only want a very narrow definition of what you do and you only want to look at that through a very narrow lens.

2.) You want me to point out a discrete intersect between what one person is doing and another person is doing so to produce yet a third result. For example, Choi's tradition intersects with "TKD" at the point where Ji shows up and produces the Sin Mu Hapkido line. Korean traditions simply do not work that way. What you are asking for is an alien system that people have imposed on Korean traditions in much the same way as Kano imposed the belt system on Judo where in Japanese arts belt ranks were never used before.

3.) You folks seem to have a vested interest in holding on to a tightly defined discipline, and tightly defined ranks, and tightly defined organizations where there simply was no such traditions in Korean martial science. These are things that you want to be true about Korean culture because it is convenient to YOU and not because it is traditionally true.

4.) You folks want what you are learning to be Korean and not Japanese, even when the teacher tells you he is teaching Japanesde material. You want the traditions to start with Choi and not go further back. You want the curriculums to include some material and not other material all because its convenient to you and not because there is historical provenance for any other option.

5.) And in the end, when you are not able to tolerate continual challenges to how you see things. Instead of asking yourself to broaden your view you ask me to stop asking questions. How wonderfully American, Stuart, not to have to change but to ask reality to change in deference to you. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

Since the original intent of this string was for Hapkido Q&A and since we have pretty much clarified where people stand on personalities how about we try some technical questions? Lets start easy.

Dojunim Kim states that he teaches what Dojunim Choi taught him. The introductory material to Dojunim Kims take on Chois material begins with 17 strikes and 16 kicks. Does anyone want to compare their kicking or striking material to see how they matchup? I can use the "Americanized" terms that we use to identify the kicks and strikes that I saw and/or include the Korean romanized name. Any Takers? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Bruce,

I asked you in a post when you came back from Korea to list the kicks and strikes I'm really interested and you said I would know them all but maybe one.

Please list them now if you will.

I stated several times that Hapkido is from Japanese origins and Ji mixed that with other Korean material, so to me HKD is a combination of the two what else is there to say?

Lastly Master Ji fully admits the Japanese origins of HKD as well so there we have it.

A part Japanese Art in Ji's case taught with a Korean attitude!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Dojunim Kim states that he teaches what Dojunim Choi taught him. The introductory material to Dojunim Kims take on Chois material begins with 17 strikes and 16 kicks. Does anyone want to compare their kicking or striking material to see how they matchup?

Bruce: I am much more interested in this because there is stuff to compare.

Share with us please.

 

[glad2bhere]

Well, all-righty, then. I was originally going to list Myungs' kicking but I will hold off with that for the moment. I did include the Korean names if it will help with the identification.

1. Scoop Kick An Da ri Cha Gi

2.) Low Point Kick Chok gi Cha Gi

3.) Side Kick Ha Dan Yop Cha Gi

4.) Outside-Inside Swivel Kick Chok Do Hoo Ri Gi

5.) Inside-Outside Swivel Kick Dwee Chook Bok eu ro jji gi

6.) Heel Hook Kick Dwee Chook An eu ro jji gi

7.) Descending Knee Ho Bok ji Mu Reup ji reu gi

8.) Heel Thrust Kick Dwee Chok Cah Gi

9.) High Point Kick Sang Dan Jji O Cha Gi

10.) Axe Kick Up Hoo Ri Gi

11.) Double Slap Kick Yop Jji O Cha gi

12.) Double Side Kick Yop Yop Cha Gi

13.) Back Kick and Middle-knuckle Strike Dwee Cha Gi

14.) Oblique Back Kick and Middle Knuckle Strike Dol A Dwee Cha Gi

15.) Knee Strike Mu Reup Jji Gi

16.) Front Kick/Back Kick. Up Cha go Dwee Cha Gi.

These 16 are an integral part of warm-ups before every class. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

See: Myung, Kwang Sik; HAPKIDO- Art of Masters pps 74-92

1.) Front Heel Kick aup Cha Gi

2.) Side Kick yup Cha Gi

3.) Inside (crescent) Kick an da re Cha Gi

4.) Outside (cresent) Kick pak kat da re Cha Gi

5.) Center Toe Kick jok ki je ru ki

6.) Inside Low Scoop Kick an da re met Cha Gi

7.) Low Circle Heel Kick de kum chi met cha dol re ki

8.) Low Curve Kick jok do met cha dol re ki

9.) Knifeedge Down Kick jok do cha na re gi

10.) Knifeedge Push Kick jok do cha nuk ki

11.) Knife edge Front Kick jok do aup cha al re ki

12.) Heel Down Kick de kum chi cha na re ki

13.) Cover Kick bal mak ki

14.) Heel Down Hook Kick de kum chi da re Cha Gi

15.) Heel Inside Hook Kick de Kum chi de Cha Gi

16.) Roundhouse Kick jok ki no pe Cha Gi

17.) Heel High Hook Kick de kum chi no pe cha dol re ki

18.) Slap Kick be kyo Cha Gi

19.) Back Kick de Cha Gi

20.) Knee Lift Kick mu rup chi gi

By way of extension I suppose we could also take the opening or introductory kicking techniques of Ji, Suh, Kimm and Lee just to see how they match-up. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

1. Scoop Kick An Da ri Cha Gi

2.) Low Point Kick Chok gi Cha Gi

3.) Side Kick Ha Dan Yop Cha Gi

4.) Outside-Inside Swivel Kick Chok Do Hoo Ri Gi

5.) Inside-Outside Swivel Kick Dwee Chook Bok eu ro jji gi

6.) Heel Hook Kick Dwee Chook An eu ro jji gi

7.) Descending Knee Ho Bok ji Mu Reup ji reu gi

8.) Heel Thrust Kick Dwee Chok Cah Gi

9.) High Point Kick Sang Dan Jji O Cha Gi

10.) Axe Kick Up Hoo Ri Gi

11.) Double Slap Kick Yop Jji O Cha gi

12.) Double Side Kick Yop Yop Cha Gi

13.) Back Kick and Middle-knuckle Strike Dwee Cha Gi

14.) Oblique Back Kick and Middle Knuckle Strike Dol A Dwee Cha Gi

15.) Knee Strike Mu Reup Jji Gi

16.) Front Kick/Back Kick. Up Cha go Dwee Cha Gi.

Thanks Bruce

One more thing can you cross reference with Myungs kicks which I'm fully familiar with and add any other describtion to make the others understanable.

 

[glad2bhere]

See: Lee, Joo Bang; The Ancient Martial Art of Hwa Rang Do pps 98-124

1.) Front Kick Ap Cha Gi

2.) Side Kick Yup Cha Gi

3.) Chop Kick Chick a Cha Gi

4.) Back Kick Dwit Cha Gi

5.) Half moon Kick Ban Dal Cha Gi

6.) Outside Full Moon Kick Man Dal Cha Gi

7.) Inside Full Moon Kick Nae Man Dal Cha Gi

8.) Chin Kick Jok Gi Cha Gi

9.) Instep Kick Bal Dung Cha Gi

10.) Heel Hook Kick Kum Chi Dol Ye Cha Gi

11.) Front Heel Snap Kick Kum Chi Olya Cha Gi

13.) Spinning Heel Kick Dora Cha Gi

14.) Roundhouse Kick Dol Ye Cha Gi

15.) Low Spinning Heel Kick Ha Dan Dora Cha Gi

Interesting there is a section following the last kick listed above wherein a number of kicks are simply identified as "low kicks" more than a few of these are reflected in the earlier two listings as invidiual kicks yet are un-named individually in this WHRDA curriculum from 1978.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

See: Suh, In Hyuk; KUK SOOL WON: Traditional Korean Martial Art

1.) Straight Leg Kick Ahp Cha Ohl Li Ki

2.) Front Kick Ahp Cha Gi

3.) Knee Kick Moo Reup Cha Gi

4.) Inside Kick Ahn Dah Ree Cha Gi

5.) Outside Kick Bah Gaht Dah Ree Cha Gi

6.) Roundhouse kick Bahl Deung Cha Gi

7.) Side Kick Yuhp Cha Gi

8.) Back Kick Dee Cha Gi

9.) Hook Kick Bahl Koom Chi Cha Gi

10.) Axe Kick Jik Uh Cha Ki

11.) Reverse Roundhouse Kick Yuhk Bahl Deung Cha Gi

12.) Turn Inside Heel Kick Ahn Koom Chi Dohl Li Ki

13.) Side Front Kick Yuhp Jik Ki

14.) Turn-back Side Kick Dee Doh Rah Yuhp Cha Ki

15.) High Spinning Kick Sahng Dahn Doh Rah Cha Gi

16.) Low Spinning Kick Hah Dan Doh Rah Cha Gi

Now that makes four introductory kicking curriculums to compare and at first glance they may seem awfully different. I can tell you that though the names are much more different than the execution, if I gave the same name to all the kicks that are similar and lined them up I think you would be amazed at how similar all of these curriculums are. Maybe I'll just do that. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Kim Myung Lee Suh


1.Scoop Kick
X X LK X
2.Low Point Kick
X
3.Side Kick
X X X X
4.Inside Swivel Kick
X X LK
5.Outside Swivel Kick
X X LK
6.Heel Hook Kick
X X LK
7.Descending Knee Strike
X
8.Heel Thrust Kick
X X X
9.High Point Hick
X X X X
10.Axe Kick
X X X X
11.Double Slap Kick (Includes single Slap kick)
X X X
12.Double Side Kick
X
13. Back Kick
X X X X
14.Oblique Back Kick
X
15.Knee Strike
X X X X
16.Front/Back kick Combo
X
See: Myung, Kwang Sik; HAPKIDO- Art of Masters pps 74-92

3.) Inside (crescent)
Myung Kim And Suh Only
4.) Outside (cresent)
Myung Kim And Suh Only
9.) Knifeedge Down Kick (Myung Only)
10.) Knifeedge Push Kick (Myung Only)
11.) Knife edge Front Kick (Myung and Suh Only)
13.) Cover Kick (Myung Only)
15.) Heel Inside Hook Kick (Myung Only)
16.)Roundhouse Kick (Myung, Lee and Suh)
17.) Heel High Hook Kick (Myung, Lee and Suh)

See: Lee, Joo Bang; The Ancient Martial Art of Hwa Rang Do pps 98-124

13.) Spinning Heel Kick Dora Cha Gi Lee & Suh
15.) Low Spinning Heel Kick Ha Dan Dora Cha Gi Lee & Suh

See: Suh, In Hyuk; KUK SOOL WON: Traditional Korean Martial Art

1.) Straight Leg Kick Ahp Cha Ohl Li Ki (Suh Only)
11.) Reverse Roundhouse Kick Yuhk Bahl Deung Cha Gi (Suh Only)
13.) Side Front Kick Yuhp Jik Ki (Suh Only)
14.) Turn-back Side Kick Dee Doh Rah Yuhp Cha Ki (Suh Only)


NOW--- before you all start tuning up on me please remember that I am comparing only introductory material. Just cause I don't have someone down for a particular technique does not mean they don't have it. It just means I didn't find it included in their published curriculum of introductory material. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

Actually Bruce, you are right,, ALL these kicks from the different groups are very similar in style and order of flow.... if I add the Sin Moo Kicks you would see they are almost exactly what you have put down... especially the first group of the kicks from your Korea trip... coincidence??? I think not....
Michael Tomlinson
5th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido

 

[glad2bhere]

I like that point but it also raises another controversial point in view of what is NOT emphasized. Its easy to see in the comparison of introductory techniques that the emphasis is on predominantly low, "ugly" kicks. What does this say about that portion of the yusool material, then, which has put much time and effort into the more acrobatic kicks. I think I can even make some room for spin-kicks and the odd jump-side kick. But can we continue to push the idea of 570 degree kicks and split-kicks done out of a back-flip? As I share this I consider that the Chinese have been rapidly back-pedaling from their investment in WuShu and have been making nice with the Taiwanese in the hopes of coaxing old masters back to the mainland for seminars in the old Boxing material. I wonder if we are better served pressing for better execution of more reasonable techniques and less consideration of the exotic.

Also along these line I have been giving some very serious thought to the TKD-like nature of the five hyungs we use in Yon Mu Kwan. There is considerable repetition and while the more basic techniques like side-kicks and Front Snap kicks are much used, the more obscure kicks don't get much attention. Maybe its time to consider substituting the lesser seen technique for some of those bread&butter kicks and strikes. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

'

 

[American HKD]

I like that point but it also raises another controversial point in view of what is NOT emphasized. Its easy to see in the comparison of introductory techniques that the emphasis is on predominantly low, "ugly" kicks. What does this say about that portion of the yusool material, then, which has put much time and effort into the more acrobatic kicks. I think I can even make some room for spin-kicks and the odd jump-side kick. But can we continue to push the idea of 570 degree kicks and split-kicks done out of a back-flip? As I share this I consider that the Chinese have been rapidly back-pedaling from their investment in WuShu and have been making nice with the Taiwanese in the hopes of coaxing old masters back to the mainland for seminars in the old Boxing material. I wonder if we are better served pressing for better execution of more reasonable techniques and less consideration of the exotic.

Also along these line I have been giving some very serious thought to the TKD-like nature of the five hyungs we use in Yon Mu Kwan. There is considerable repetition and while the more basic techniques like side-kicks and Front Snap kicks are much used, the more obscure kicks don't get much attention. Maybe its time to consider substituting the lesser seen technique for some of those bread&butter kicks and strikes. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Bruce,

I agree with you in this case.

As I mature I really believe in my heart most of the high kicks and jumping/flying kicks are purely for athleticism and show ONLY, like gymnastics if you will great moves can't fight!

I'm seriously thinking about not teaching most of them any more.
Look at any Master for example as they age it takes more and more time and engergy to maintain those type of kicks. I haven't seen any Master in thier 40's kick like they did in thier 20 & 30's my Master icluded.

To me self-defense skills should become better with age, if you only can do them as a young person what good are they when you reach 40, 50, 60?

I resently spoke to a progressive Korean Master of very high staus from a reputable Association who told me that high kick jumping kick are all for show and they dont require them for black belt or above.

 

[glad2bhere]

......and as long as we have gone this far there is yet another piece that would nice to investigate. That piece is the role of kicking (such as it might be) in the ju jutsu and DRAJJ traditions. It would be nice if one of those folks who is fairly familiar with Japanese traditions might favor us with an opinion about the nature of this kicking versus what is presented in the Japanese arts. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

I'm with you guys on the acrobatic kicking. I am 46 now and those jump back spinning kicks just don't work like they use to.. I focus much more on the self defense aspects of Hapkido... low to medium range kicks, I also specify the kicks in which you don't turn your shoulders and body sideways more also... being from a wrestling, choking background I see a real gamble in execution when a person does a side kick for example and give the hint of their back up... we focus on passing and flanking so much that if you give one of my guys your edge he is behind you,, I like the scoop and outside heel type kicks in which I can enter kicking and still be balanced and centered for my pressing techniques....
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

For us, not so much the Side kick, but the RH kick is taught as a sacrifice kick much like the Stomach Throw in Judo is a sacrifice throw. The sport people love that skip-in RH kick but without proper set-up its an accident waiting to happen. I first got a clue when I started hearing Bill Wallaces' comments on using the RH Kick as much as he does. Apparently the part that most people don't attend to is the way he preps the situation BEFORE cutting loose.


Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

Bill Wallace is a good guy, I did an all day training session with him a couple years ago.. he knows his stuff.. his stretching routine is really top notch also, he has a degree in Kinesiology and is a real character... a lot of his kicking concepts make good sense when it comes to timing and baiting... we practice slipping and also sliding in on the rh and sidekick as well as the spinning hook kicks, with the proper x step and arm position you can get the flank and or back pretty consistenly on many different people.. it's funny because once you do this you get a new respect for certain kicks and disregard others... Les Connard is the best I've ever seen at this,, his guys grab the legs and evade the kicks so well that his high up black belts ONLY throw front leg kicks at each other because they have their stepping and timing down so well that a rear leg kick on them is suicide.. they can bait you like a trout and when you even hint of moving a kick from the rear leg they own you.
Less has shown me this stepping and evading a couple of times personally and it is quite awesome.. he is a big guy,, about six four and he moves like a cat.....Jang Mu is a cool style of Hapkido and Less is a class act and VERY formidable Hapkido Player.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

Is anyone going to share the introductory kicking material from Dojunim Lims' tradition? Does anyone want to post the introductory kicks for Dojunim Ji's Sin Moo tradition? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

Here is the Sin Moo Basic kicks in our terminology...
Michael Tomlinson


SIN MOO 25 BASIC KICKS

1] SCOOP KICK TO SHIN
2] SCORPION KICK
3] OUTSIDE HEEL KICK
4] SIDE KICK
5] INSIDE CRESCENT KICK
6] OUTSIDE CRESCENT KICK
7] ROUNDHOUSE KICK
8] FRONT THRUST KICK—UNDER CHIN
9] AXE KICK
10] FRONT PUSHING HEEL KICK
11] LOW ROUNDHOUSE
12] DOWNWARD OUTSIDE CRESCENT—X STEP, HITS LEG
13] FRONT UPWARD SLICING KICK
14] FRONT PUSHING KICK—TO HEAD
15] HORIZONTAL SLICING OUTSIDE CRESCENT
16] SIDE KICK—TOUCHING GROUND
17] BACK SIDE KICK—TOUCHING GROUND
18] BACK LOWER SPINNING SLICING KICK
19] UPWARD KNEE
20] DIAGONAL KNEE TO THIGH—X STEP, GRAB SHOULDER
21] THRUSTING KNEE KICK
22] CIRCULAR SCOOP KICK—AGAINST WALL
23] INVERTED ROUNDHOUSE KICK—“POPCORN KICK”
24] UPWARD SLAP KICK—X STEP, TO EXTENDED LEG
25] SLAP KICK TO BACK OF HEAD—CROSS X STEP