Hapkido Q&A's

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Yes, I know what you are saying. What I am suggesting is that maybe its time to quit putting so much emphasis on papers and begin to build concensus from existing leadership about seniority. If after all of these years its still a matter of "me on top", then maybe we need to consider just what it is that we expect when we DO put somebody at the top of the heap. Lets suppose we have a pyramid and we put Lim on top of that pyramid. OK. Now what exactly does that mean and I am talking about across the board in the Hapkido community? How does this change things for practitioners in France? What about Combat Hapkido folks in Montana? What about Julian in Malaysia? What about Ji in New Jersey or Myung in California? Want a comparable example?

In many posts I have invoked scholarship to support my positions. What if people don't care about scholarship? See my point? We easily have 15 major players in Hapkido who regularly vie for authority in their own venue and other venues. Each has their own rationale and their own collection of "groupies". Each has their own story and their own history and their own documents. I don't see anyone bending to submit to another persons' authority, do you? And everyone has "real good" reasons not to, right?
Thoughts?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Dear Kevin:

Yes, I know what you are saying. What I am suggesting is that maybe its time to quit putting so much emphasis on papers and begin to build concensus from existing leadership about seniority. If after all of these years its still a matter of "me on top", then maybe we need to consider just what it is that we expect when we DO put somebody at the top of the heap. Lets suppose we have a pyramid and we put Lim on top of that pyramid. OK. Now what exactly does that mean and I am talking about across the board in the Hapkido community? How does this change things for practitioners in France? What about Combat Hapkido folks in Montana? What about Julian in Malaysia? What about Ji in New Jersey or Myung in California? Want a comparable example?

In many posts I have invoked scholarship to support my positions. What if people don't care about scholarship? See my point? We easily have 15 major players in Hapkido who regularly vie for authority in their own venue and other venues. Each has their own rationale and their own collection of "groupies". Each has their own story and their own history and their own documents. I don't see anyone bending to submit to another persons' authority, do you? And everyone has "real good" reasons not to, right?
Thoughts?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Hello Bruce,

Quite right here. There would probably be 15 pyramids. My impression is that becasue of a conspiracy of silence (for lack of a better word), there will always be this number. I harkin back to a famous photo taken after Ji arrived in the US with all the big names in attendence - No one (especially herein the US) wants to spill the proverbial beans about who DOES and DOES NOT have papers - so for example, Joo Bang Lee won't say anything about Ji, Ji won't say anything about Myung etc. No one wants to upset the apple cart - and looking geographically, it is interesting how all the big names are so conveniently spread out...

I think that the big question many of these guys probably have had for years is "what if someone comes out of Korea and upsets the balance with a "truth" different to ours"...

 

[glad2bhere]

No one (especially herein the US) wants to spill the proverbial beans about who DOES and DOES NOT have papers - so for example, Joo Bang Lee won't say anything about Ji, Ji won't say anything about Myung etc. No one wants to upset the apple cart - and looking geographically, it is interesting how all the big names are so conveniently spread out...

I think that the big question many of these guys probably have had for years is "what if someone comes out of Korea and upsets the balance with a "truth" different to ours"...

OK, so lets take it a step farther. Lets suppose that there is a kind of "conspiracy of silence" such that noone is going to reveal the shortcomings of another person if that person doesn't do the same. I'm just posing this as a supposition (please don't anybody tune-up on me). What we might say then is that we have a corrupted leadership like people can have a corrupted file on a computer disc. Somehow, behind the scenes the authority of these folks is compromised. Where does that leave us? Since the situation has gone on for so long I don't see that generation making-nice and coming together to work for the common good. Using paper to validate positions isn't helping because EVERYBODY has paper. But maybe there is a way to take the personality stuff out of the mix and leave only art itself without assigning a single over-riding authority. Let me give an example.

A little while ago we had some lists of kicks and everybody noted that there were similarities. Yes some people had one kick and not another but there was a significant number of kicks that everybody shared. Now, if somebody put a gun to my head and asked for a technical definition of Hapkido, I think I could be forgiven for invoking that Hapkido is an art which includes those (say) 10 kicks. A person who says they practice the art of Hapkido would at LEAST know those ten kicks. Maybe they go on to practice another 20 kick in addition. Thats on them. But if they teach Hapkido, then they teach a minimum of those 10 kicks. See where this is going? How about another example.

YMK Hapkido practices 6 weapons. Four of those weapns I hear mentioned quite frequently. Of those four dan bong and sword seem to get mentioned most often (though cane is pretty close in there as well). I could be forgiven for defining Hapkido as the art that practices those three weapons. Now if I want to practice sword and train to master all five architectures of Korean swords thats on me. But I don't think anyone would shoot my dog for saying that if a person practices Hapkido they will get around to training in Dan bong, cane and sword--- at a minimum.

Now I know what you are thinking. Whats to keep someone from finding out the absolute minimum standards, becoming familiar with them and representing that they now teach Hapkido. In a word, nothing. There will always be such people. I'm not offering a panacea. I'm just tossing out some thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Now I know what you are thinking. Whats to keep someone from finding out the absolute minimum standards, becoming familiar with them and representing that they now teach Hapkido. In a word, nothing. There will always be such people. I'm not offering a panacea. I'm just tossing out some thoughts.

So what is wrong about someone learning the minimum techniques (assuming they learn them well) and teaching hapkido? If we are only judging hapkido by the number of techniques known, then this person satisifies the requirement. So let them teach and accept it as hapkido.

Students who learn the basic techniques and are still hungry to learn more will move on to a different school that fits their needs.

I did that. My old school only had a program up to 1st dan. It offered nothing for those who wished to continue hapkido. Now, I am not 1st dan yet, but I've already moved on to a school where the master has a lesson plan up to 4th degree because I want to someday reach the 4th dan level.

In hapkido we will always have the vast majority of students practice the art for a short time in their life. A small number will train their whole lives and strive to learn more every day. So the vast majority of hapkidoists will only learn the basics anyway. It is those who wish to train their whole lives who we should expect to carry on the whole art.

Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Exactly right.

For those of us who want to practice Hapkido arts we will always be pushing the edge of the envelope. We will go to events and meet other folks who also practice Hapkido. And when we get out on the mat or floor we are comforted that the person sharing our training will have a basic skill set. I would not expect that everyone would do air-rolls on gym floors. (OK, so I'm nuts. I can live with that.) But I think I am within my rights to expect that a person could forward-roll or sit-down out of a technique such that I need not always moderate my technique for THEIR safety. Know what I mean? I teach 5 different kinds of Turning Leaf (J. "Kote gashi). I don't pretend that everyone trains in all 5 and I bet their are people who toss in some that I have not seen. All the same I think its fair that I need not hear my partner in Hapkido say, "oh, we don't do that" or "oh, I've never seen that." I have been to some events and seen folks standing on the edge of the mat because "we don't do breakfalls" in our art. What art is THAT?

What I am thinking of are the folks who want to lay claim to practicing Hapkido without a standard skill set that allows them to work well with other practitioners. And for you commecial folks, you may want to consider the comfort you will get from having people attend your activities who are up for what will go on rather than be in over there head. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Exactly right.

And when we get out on the mat or floor we are comforted that the person sharing our training will have a basic skill set. I would not expect that everyone would do air-rolls on gym floors. (But I think I am within my rights to expect that a person could forward-roll or sit-down out of a technique such that I need not always moderate my technique for THEIR safety. Know what I mean? I teach 5 different kinds of Turning Leaf (J. "Kote gashi). I don't pretend that everyone trains in all 5 and I bet their are people who toss in some that I have not seen. All the same I think its fair that I need not hear my partner in Hapkido say, "oh, we don't do that" or "oh, I've never seen that." I have been to some events and seen folks standing on the edge of the mat because "we don't do breakfalls" in our art. What art is THAT?

Holy *#&$! There are people out there who profess to teach hapkido but don't let their students do breakfalls?!!! I mean, I can understand if not all students can do flip-falls. But basic front, side, and back falls? No way!

Ok. Can I go back a few posts and change what I wrote when defining hapkido?

Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Hey.... you don't have to believe "me". If you ever get a chance to talk to Master JR West sometime we both saw the same experience at the first International I attended in Jackson (going back a few years). Essentially these folks stood at the edge of the mat the entire weekend and watched. I finally took it upon myself to invite them out on the mat to work with me thinking that maybe they were feeling a little overwhelmed. It was my first Internationale so "I" was feeling a little overwhelmed myself. Had to work hard not make judgements when I got their response. Kinda sad, if you really think about it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

OK folks, I'm going to kick over the garbage can. There seems to be a contradiction of sorts between this thread and the other thread dealing with the practical application(s). It has already been stated and echo'd that what you do to someone in the street will in no way be the same as what's accomplished in the dojang. That's the reality of what the techniques are designed to do. If you are challenged in the street, it's a good bet it's not going to be by a trained hapkidoin, jujitsu or judo player. If you are attacked, you are trained to deal with that attack. If he/she/they should get thru your defense, you most likely will have a body on yours going to the ground. I have never seen anyone be able to do any type of controlled breakfall with an aggressive body weight attached. Try this on your partner next time when training -- Allow him to be non-compliant and now you are forced to intro duce a persuader. Biomechanics take over and the body responds to the strike/kick/etc. As the body responds you then do your technique. Poof, your partner now has a broken body part and he knew how to breakfall, he just wasen't allowed too. My point to all this is that I personally feel breakfalls are a waste of time and something introduced to stretch out the training time frame. I realize that many out there love this element of training. I've been to enough show and tells and it starts to look like the U.S. gymnastic is in town. Look at the reality of what is being done to the human body. Even in training doing the breakfalls, if either you or your partner are out of sync, somebody will most likely get hurt. There's always the mention of reality training. Don't you think that were glossing over the reality aspect of what this stuff does, if people are flying all over the place and getting right back up to do it all over again. I take my people right to the edge of the technique - slowly, so they can see and feel just what will really happen next. The body positioning is drasticlly altered compared to somebody who anticipates the move and stays ahead to do a breakfall. Even your body position (delivering the technique) will change. The irony of my position is that it was introduced to me by an older Korean instructor.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Ummm...Disco, I think you missed a few posts. Start back around post #323 and read the conversation from that point forward.

 

[Paul B]

This is good...how about the flipside of the coin? (ha ha)

The couple of times I have had a "turning leaf" aka kote gaeshi slammed on me and the only reason my wrist didn't break was because of my "unnecessary" breakfall? Huh...huh...

This is a relative Hapkido Q&A....

quick....hurry...before the politicians come back!:lol:

 

[Disco]

Ok, I went back to page 16, 17, 18, 19 and then came back here. Just what is it that you feel I have missed? The last 2 or 3 posts by yourself and Bruce were in relation to breakfalls or the lack there of. A new thought line was introduced and I responded to it............. :idunno:

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I understand your belief that breakfalls are not needed when practicing joint locks. (I don't agree with it, but I get your point.)

But does the hapkido you practice not have throws? Foot throws, knee throws, hip throws, etc. What about defenses against kicks where you catch the kick and slam the person to the ground?

I can think of many techniques in hapkido where one needs to learn how to fall because the fall itself is whole point of the technique. I don't understand how you can learn these techniques if you don't know how to receive these techniques, fall down properly, and not get hurt. And if you don't practice these techniques, you are missing a lot of hapkido.

Jeremy

 

[whalen]

I have had the privilege of sharing the mat with (disco) mike and Do not let him fool you he is very capable and he knows how to fall and his Hapkido is good.....

Do not sell him short


Hal Whalen

Go KERRY......... artyon:

 

[Disco]

I can think of many techniques in hapkido where one needs to learn how to fall because the fall itself is whole point of the technique.

The fall itself is not the point of the technique. It's the result of extraneous training. I'll repeat for you and Paul. The only reason the fall happens is because you trained to take the fall which #1 - you know is coming and #2 - you are taught to anticipate or go with the actual technique. I'll repeat this aspect too, If you hit, really hit, even a trained practicioner, you take away their ability to anticipate and or to fully go with the technique. Hasen't Bruce already stipulated how easy it is to do real physical harm? Hasen't Stewart (on the other thread), also stipulated that breakfalls outside of the dojang have serious repercussions.

But does the hapkido you practice not have throws? Foot throws, knee throws, hip throws, etc. What about defenses against kicks where you catch the kick and slam the person to the ground?

Correct, I'm defensing against the kick and the kicker is being slamed to the ground, same principle(s). Again, these throws that are practiced in the dojang will not be inacted the same way in the street. Again, your not dealing with someone trained to anticipate and or go with the technique. Something is going to break and drasticly weaking whatever leverage point you had, thus eliminating the nice controlled. I've done the breakfall training and at one time I admit that it was cool to be on the receiving end of the techniques and people were very impressed. That old Korean I mentioned said to me, "Why you train, you want be victim"? "You think bad guy fall all over like dojang"? Don't think I'd call him a rebel, but he was very opioniated and to me made sense. He said other things that his contempories would have had issue with.

 

[Paul B]

Hi, Mst. Whalen,

I do find it very interesting that a senior practitioner would say that nauk bup isn't important.:idunno:

And as a rule regarding technique,I don't sell anyone short,especially seniors. Otherwise I would probably find out how important Nauk Bup really is...Ha,Ha! :lol:

No disrepect intended to anybody...I try not to take myself too seriously,but I do take Hapkido very seriously. So...I'll shut up now.

 

[Disco]

Hal, appriciate the kind words. Just wish I could do it like when I was younger. Getting old is a lousy way to go.. :uhyeah:

Just trying to formulate some outside the box thinking here. We all realize the breakfall training has a strong influence within the training criteria. I just think that many put way to much emphasis on that aspect of training and loose track of what really is suppose to happen when the technique is used for real.

 

[Disco]

So...I'll shut up now.

Paul, no need for that. We need your input as well. I learn something new everyday, Well at least I think I do, but it could be just the halfzimeres kicking in. I only forget stuff half of the time. :uhohh:

 

[Kumbajah]

I teach 5 different kinds of Turning Leaf (J. "Kote gashi).

Bruce Hapkido is a KOREAN tradition please refrain from using Japonese terms

Just thought a little ribbing was in order

Brian

 

[SmellyMonkey]

The fall itself is not the point of the technique. It's the result of extraneous training. I'll repeat for you and Paul. The only reason the fall happens is because you trained to take the fall which #1 - you know is coming and #2 - you are taught to anticipate or go with the actual technique. I'll repeat this aspect too, If you hit, really hit, even a trained practicioner, you take away their ability to anticipate and or to fully go with the technique. Hasen't Bruce already stipulated how easy it is to do real physical harm? Hasen't Stewart (on the other thread), also stipulated that breakfalls outside of the dojang have serious repercussions.

I don't know how the debate got here! Mike, I am sure we are not disagreeing with each other.

I agree, techniques where the defender HAS to jump or throw themselves to the ground voluntarilly are not the best self defense techniques. I catorigize those as the "art" part of the martial art.

For a self-defense throw, the whole point is that fast stop at the end called the ground. It hits harder than any kick or strike ever could.

I've heard it said (or read it) that throwing arts are some of the oldest arts around. Who can't see the logic in trying to get someone to hit the ground hard enough to mess them up?

And how do you practice throwing someone? YOU THROW THEM! And how does the person getting thrown not get messed up themselves during practice? They learn how to breakfall!

When Bruce said he met "hapkidoists" who said they never learned how to do breakfalls and therefore couldn't practice whatever technique he wanted to practice, I was shocked. I don't believe "hapkido" without training on how to take a fall is hapkido.

Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

Point WELL taken. It just shows to go you how badly we either a.) need a common English nomenclature or b.) need a uniform Korean nomenclature. Right now just about every Japanese tradition that does a wrist throw calls it such. Most folks who have been around the block with Hapkido will recognize the Japanese term. For the Koreans, however, even if the same term is used expect that the spelling may not always be consistent.

Folks, we really need to fix this. Thoughts? For myself I vote for using Han-ja but there is some wicked nasty learning curve to that compared to Han-gul. Some folks simply number the techniques for their curriculum, but that usually only works in a closed group who know the sequence of techniques. Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce