Hapkido Q&A's

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

".......Just a side not why does GM Kim call himself Doju Nim? The Founder gave that title to GM Chang, Chin Il and he is still alive as far as I know....."


Just for the record, a person does not "call" themselves "doju", "GM", "Master" or any other title in Korean traditions. A "title" is a western hang-up. WE are the ones that are hung-up on titles; us and the Korean Ex-pats who couldn't get their ego-s sufficiently stroked back in Korea. By tradition, a person does what it is that they do and the community in turn identifies them with a title. In my own case I teach YMK Hapkido. If somebody wants to call me "Master Sims", "Sims Saengsanim" or "hey-you-over-there" thats pretty much on them. In traditional KMA people taught material to students and the student learned material from the teacher. If they got good, after a while the community recognized their abilities with some sort of identifier. Is Kim "doju"? Of course he is. The Choi family asked him to become a leader when Chois' son died. He has all the paperwork and such. Does he ask people to call him "doju". Nope. His students do so because they choose to honor him. Chang Chin Il is the same situation. Is HE "doju"? Absolutely, since Choi apparently bestowed it himself. Does he call himself "doju"? Maybe or maybe not. It really doesn't matter. You can have as many "doju", "grandmasters" and whatall that you want. This is one point that westerners are just never going to get. Titles and ranks and standing are just not that big a thing to Koreans since it is the doing and not the labels that mean something. Why do you think so many people hand these things out like candy. Westerners are making the market for buying and selling rank because WE are the ones that make such a big thing out of it!

Now, let me ask you. You have asked this question a number of times of a number of people and apparently have not gotten a satisfactory answer yet. What exactly is it that you are fishing for? Whats your vested interest in assigning a title or position to this person or that person? And since you are so invested in this (and traditional Koreans are not) and since the Japanese traditions have this sort of "title competition" (and Koreans do not) and since this is a Korean section (and you have already reported that Lim states that he teaches a Japanese tradition) maybe it would help me and a lot of other folks if you just came out (like Kevin did) and own what it is that you are leveraging for, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Just for the record, a person does not "call" themselves "doju", "GM", "Master" or any other title in Korean traditions. A "title" is a western hang-up. WE are the ones that are hung-up on titles; us and the Korean Ex-pats who couldn't get their ego-s sufficiently stroked back in Korea. By tradition, a person does what it is that they do and the community in turn identifies them with a title. In my own case I teach YMK Hapkido. If somebody wants to call me "Master Sims", "Sims Saengsanim" or "hey-you-over-there" thats pretty much on them. In traditional KMA people taught material to students and the student learned material from the teacher. If they got good, after a while the community recognized their abilities with some sort of identifier. Is Kim "doju"? Of course he is. The Choi family asked him to become a leader when Chois' son died. He has all the paperwork and such. Does he ask people to call him "doju". Nope. His students do so because they choose to honor him. Chang Chin Il is the same situation. Is HE "doju"? Absolutely, since Choi apparently bestowed it himself. Does he call himself "doju"? Maybe or maybe not. It really doesn't matter. You can have as many "doju", "grandmasters" and whatall that you want. This is one point that westerners are just never going to get. Titles and ranks and standing are just not that big a thing to Koreans since it is the doing and not the labels that mean something. Why do you think so many people hand these things out like candy. Westerners are making the market for buying and selling rank because WE are the ones that make such a big thing out of it!

Now, let me ask you. You have asked this question a number of times of a number of people and apparently have not gotten a satisfactory answer yet. What exactly is it that you are fishing for? Whats your vested interest in assigning a title or position to this person or that person? And since you are so invested in this (and traditional Koreans are not) and since the Japanese traditions have this sort of "title competition" (and Koreans do not) and since this is a Korean section (and you have already reported that Lim states that he teaches a Japanese tradition) maybe it would help me and a lot of other folks if you just came out (like Kevin did) and own what it is that you are leveraging for, yes? FWIW.

Yet again Bruce you try to prove a point that is not born out by evidence. Dojunim Chang Chin Il was given the title by Choi himself - yes, given the title Dojunim - so it looks like a Korean (the founder of Hapkido) was actually expecting someone to use this title. Now, as far as Kim, Yun Sang, the wife of Choi's son apparently gave Kim a piece of paper saying he could call himself Dojunim - a title he calls himself on his web site. Now, if titles were not a big deal, why did Kim accept a title from someone that has NO authority to give it to him? In all defference to Kim, he might be a great guy and good martial artist, but falls flat on this one - Choi, Bok Yul's wife has no authority to bestow titles. Funny, but for all your ranting about "Korean traditions don't follow familial lineage" you ain't screaming about this one (vested interest perhaps?) - and the familial lineage to bestow title here is non-existant. By the way, there can only be one Doju in the Choi lineage, it was bestowed by Choi, to Chang, Chin Il on Korean National Television no less, with Grandmaster Lim acting as the MC for the event...

Just where do you get off saying Koreans have no title competition and the Japanese do? Again, when did you become a professor of Asian Studies? If this is just you assumption (which I thnk it is) then say so - but just because Kim doesn't require you to call him Doju doesn't mean he doesn't care about the title. I have trained with many Japanese over the years and have never had to call any of them any exahlted title.

It is becoming more and more clear that the reason that you are so biased against single people being important is because the very tradition that you claim - Yon Moo Kwan - is headed by a person that won't travel to teach, and who is not important enough to you for you to go see. It is unfortunate that Myung is so stubborn, sick, whatever, but the rest of us seem quite content with a small group of highly trained and qualified practitioners at the helm.

You practice an art that was developed by Choi, Yong Sul, from a Japanese tradition - who taught Ji, who taught Myung - so its Japanese traditions all round - maybe it would help all of us if you could simply, and finally find any link to Hapkido from your "Korean Traditions" diatribe instead of trying to make the average reader here think that "historical evidence" you try to pass off here is anything other than a mask because you have been dumped on (unfairly, I will agree) by a few Hapkido people.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

NO ONE said that Choi didn't give Chang Chin Il a title. He sold a LOT of people titles, and ranks and what not. How many 10th dans, 9th dans and 8th dans are there? Your point seems to be that there SHOULD BE one exclusive and ultimate source of authority and power. THERE SIMPLY IS NO SUCH INSTITUTION IN KOREAN MARTIAL TRADITIONS. You keep wanting there to be one. If this were true Choi would have to draw HIS authority from some tradition in Japan where he learned whatever he learned. THEN you would have a case--- and--- you, in turn, would be beholding to a Japanese soke. Absent that, anyone has as valid a claim as anyone else. Here in the States we have this thing about power and control that ties into commerce. Why do you keep trying to push an institution on Korean martial traditions which simply isn't part of their history? Listen to what you are writing!

"Chois' wife had no authority...."!

What "authority" did she need? If I want to give somebody a title in a tradition that thinks little of such things what do I need? Now if you want to go back to Japan and the Ryu-Ha approach-- well hell, they will adopt poeple into the family to keep the integrity of their lineage. What does this have to do with Korea? Have you even read Palais (pp 442-577)? Do you have any actual idea of the nature of martial tradition in a Korean culture and how it was addressed? How about how it relates to Confucian thought? You keep banging on Choi as though if you say it long enough it becomes true. The titles you are making so much of are NOT Korean titles ("doju") and the patrilinear succession is only important to you because it would make you and Todd important and exclusive. And authentic labels such a "kwang jang" and "saengsa" are not exclusive enough to be commercially viable.

And where do I ".....get off saying Koreans have no title competition and the Japanese do? Again, when did you become a professor of Asian Studies?..."

Do I actually NEED to be a professor of Asian Studies? Isn't this just more of your "title thing". If I don't have a title then I can't possibly be well-read or aware of the obvious in daily life, right? The only people fighting about titles are the folks who are worried about security later in life. Most of the time Koreans just split and go their own way. Are you telling me you havn't seen this very thing over and over again? In Japan they can always come back to a single soke, but even THERE people break off now and do their own thing. What the heck is your point? You want something that is not a reality.

And for my money I don't know that I would bring up Ji or Myung because they are perfect examples of exactly what I have been speaking of. When they die, someone else will be identified as mentors for study-groups ("kwans"). Maybe they will have fancy paper and maybe they won't. I can't speak with authority about what sort of fancy wallpaper someone like, say, JR West has, but if he is a person who garners the respect of a following of people thats going to happen regardless of what he has on the wall. On the other side, if somebody, say Chang Chin Il, has all the right wallpaper but doesn't do anything-- or very little--- whats the point?

My bias against authority collecting in the hands of a individual or exclusive elite is not just that it is not traditionally Korean, but that I have never once seen it do any good for Korean martial traditions---- not once in all the reading, and training and research etc etc etc I have been part of. Not Once.

The art I practice came to me from Myung, who got it from Ji, who got it from Choi who got it from someone else. True enough. I also train in swordwork which is far beyond what Myung ever taught and proceeds from Korean material --- both Japanese and Chinese influenced. I also train in dan bong which is both Chinese and Japanese influenced. I also train in woldo, chang bong and soh bong which are also Japanese and Chinese influenced. I subscribe to practice which is framed by Korean culture as much as I can honor it in a Western country. For your part you seem bent on selling something once you have proven exclusive rights to market it here in the States. To do that you have to prove exclusivity back to Choi through Lim, then prove that you are not a Japanese tradition (which honors exclusivity) but are the only Korean martial tradition, separate from ALL others, which DOES honor exclusivity--- but only back to Choi. Give me a break. Even "I" can see through this ploy.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Now, let me ask you. You have asked this question a number of times of a number of people and apparently have not gotten a satisfactory answer yet. What exactly is it that you are fishing for? Whats your vested interest in assigning a title or position to this person or that person? And since you are so invested in this (and traditional Koreans are not) and since the Japanese traditions have this sort of "title competition" (and Koreans do not) and since this is a Korean section (and you have already reported that Lim states that he teaches a Japanese tradition) maybe it would help me and a lot of other folks if you just came out (like Kevin did) and own what it is that you are leveraging for, yes? FWIW.

Bruce:
You are the only one I see all worked up about titles in Korean Mudo!!!! I feel that addressing senior practitioners with respect is cross cultural NOT JUST Japanese. GM Lim teaches THE KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS OF HAPKIDO & GUHAPDO. I am not leveraging for anything bruce, I do feel that it is important for people to know the truth especially with so much dishonesty in martial arts today.

If someone wants to see what I do they are welcome to come check it out. I make NO false claims and I try to teach with passion as I love Hapkido/Guhapdo and feel that rather than argue about the silly things that you want to argue about we try to hold Freindship seminars where ALL are welcome to come and train NOT TALK like you like to do!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really should try to act your age!

What is your reasoning behind being insulting to everyone that does not totally agree with you?

www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Bruce,

Yes, I run a commercial dojang, and attempt to make a living doing so. So YES, I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Bruce to say they teach Hapkido because a guy teachs a few throws, uses circular motion and has a Malaysian Dentist tell him that to him it looks just like hapkido, so it is as you say a "Hapkido Art" - No way.

Hapkido is a single art, now if people decide to do their own thing, great, then when they call it Kuk Sool Kon, or Hwarangdo AWESOME - they do not invoke the tradition of CHOI, and that to me is fine. There is no such thing as the "Hapkido Arts" - that is a term upon which all your arguments are predicated, but have no proof for.

As a point of further reference, I don't and won't refer to persons (or personalities that currently live) to validate an art that I have spent 25 years doing. I believe that Todd only does it when asked a specific question about Grandmaster Lim, so to act like we use the name as leverage is simply untrue. I don't need to leverage the fact I teach traditional Hapkido, it is in my training and technique - the true lineage of Choi, Yong Sul for which I am very greatful.

I have been told over and over, for some 25 years from those that trained with both Choi and Ji that despite your call for "Korean Tradition, responsibility, and whatever, the one trait they admired most in people (that is all people) was humility. Try some Bruce before you whack out another insult jabbing post.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

To Bruce and Kevin.

Why do these conversations end up like this? Why do so many threads get locked down in the hapkido area of this forum?

People are too damn narrow minded. And think that they deserve to spread their narrowminded vision of the world to everyone else.

This thread switched from being informative information about our art to being hijacked by a few members to *****. And now we are arguing that one person's master is bad, and another person only cares about money.

Do you even realize that other people besides you two are viewing this thread and making opinions about hapkido and hapkidoists? It's arguments and behavior like this that give hapkido a bad name.

I've personally gone from respecting both of you and hoping to meet you someday (since we are all in the same state) to hoping to never cross your paths, lest you will treat me like you treat each other. And that makes be sad, because I had A LOT of respect for you two.

Would your masters be proud of you? Would your students?

Humility was mentioned. I wonder what the other readers think about the level of humility shown.

Jeremy

 

[iron_ox]

To Bruce and Kevin.

Why do these conversations end up like this? Why do so many threads get locked down in the hapkido area of this forum?

People are too damn narrow minded. And think that they deserve to spread their narrowminded vision of the world to everyone else.

This thread switched from being informative information about our art to being hijacked by a few members to *****. And now we are arguing that one person's master is bad, and another person only cares about money.

Do you even realize that other people besides you two are viewing this thread and making opinions about hapkido and hapkidoists? It's arguments and behavior like this that give hapkido a bad name.

I've personally gone from respecting both of you and hoping to meet you someday (since we are all in the same state) to hoping to never cross your paths, lest you will treat me like you treat each other. And that makes be sad, because I had A LOT of respect for you two.

Would your masters be proud of you? Would your students?

Humility was mentioned. I wonder what the other readers think about the level of humility shown.

Jeremy

Sorry, but what? Bruce and I speak about every other day, and see each other at least monthly to train. We have strong viewpoints that conflict in some areas, and I don't feel the need to hold back in my discussion with Bruce. Now, that being said, we both can get a little over board, and hey that happens.

If I offended anyone on this board at all with my tone, I formally apologize - the jabs got a little personal and that was uncalled for - so to the Martialtalk community, I am sorry for that one - I'll be more careful.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

Please indulge Kevin and I because there is a little more going on here than what might be apparent from the start. Let me try to explain.

Kevin and I have VERY strong views about our respective positions with the Hapkido arts, and that fact is out there for everyone to see. Let me make it perfectly clear that I simple do not agree with Kevins' take on things and I would bet dollars to donuts that he doesn't agree with me. In fact, Jeremy, I am COUNTING on him not agreeing. Sound strange? Well lets take a look at history.

The Hapkido arts have been fractionated for years---decades, really. Its not that people don't talk. They do that rightly enough. The problem is that it always gets up to a single point and then it becomes personal. After that the exchanges are bulls*** threats and challenges and guess what---- the communication breaks down just at the point that maybe we could have finally uncovered true motives, real intentions and so forth. Kevin is not the first person I have tried to do this with. However, Kevin is the first person who has stuck with it. And to their credit, the folks here at MARTIAL TALK have taken a pretty hands-off approach which allows us to continue. I would like to think that Kevin and I can continue and maintain our mutual respect for each other but that has a lot to do with the WAY we communicate. Heres an example.

Kevin has never made a secret of being a commercial concern. I think he just said it again in his last post. I have never made a secret that I want no part of commerce in the KMA and that I think its a bain on the arts. Now there is a line that we work not to cross. For instance, as commercial as he might be, it is not fair for me to make it personal and characterize Kevin as ONLY interested money when I know damn good and well that the KMA means as much to him as myself. Kevin, in turn, might make a lot of cracks about my book-worming but only because he knows that whatever I do with books gets automatically validated out on the mat and is used to benefit the art.

And that last bit "benefit the art" is what ties us together albeit from opposite ends of the spectrum. The key to this discussion is that folks like you can see how two "extremists" can communicate. Do we push the limits now and then? Sure. Read the last few posts and you will see it in a FEW places. But the trick is not to try and covert each other but to demonstrate how Hapkido benefits from each of our respective positions whether it is commerce OR research. I hope this make sense.

BTW: I also want to extend a Kudo to Kevin as, though we didn't "plan" to do this, no small part of this comes out of his encouraging me to try this tack one more time after losing a job and getting trashed trying to do this very same thing over on DOCHANG DIGEST. In that particular case, I simply underestimated the toxicity of the personalities that I was dealing with and I don't know that Ray (Terry) could have done much once the ball headed down hill. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

"........You are the only one I see all worked up about titles in Korean Mudo!!!! I feel that addressing senior practitioners with respect is cross cultural NOT JUST Japanese. GM Lim teaches THE KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS OF HAPKIDO & GUHAPDO. I am not leveraging for anything bruce, I do feel that it is important for people to know the truth especially with so much dishonesty in martial arts today................."

Todd, nobody is questioning the use of titles. I use titles all the time. People use titles with me, flattering and not so flattering. The Koreans use titles themselves and standing in the community means a lot to them.

BUT---

the title you are talking about is not Korean. It is not an integral part of Korean martial tradition. Its a transliteration of Japanese. You said yourself that Doju Lim reported to you that he teaches a Japanese tradition. Why not just bill it as such? If it has no place in traditional Korean martial science except that you carve a place out for it why not come up front with it?

Nor do I have a problem with you teaching what it is that you teach. My point is now and has been for a number of posts on two separate strings that what is being done and how its being represented is very carefully being couched in narrowly defined and selective terms to produce a pre-determined result. The terms, the process and the result are not a function of Korean culture. Its is a function of your desire to market a special product with yourself as the sole and excluse purveyor of that product.

As far as acting my age--- well, I don't really have a choice. 54 is 54 and theres nothing I can do about! :ultracool I can also report with little fear of contradiction that if I insulted everyone who didn't agree with me I wouldn't have time in a day to do anything else.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Can I pop a question in here?

What exactly do you guys hope to gain from this? Or is it just plain ol' fun for you to argue in circles? (said with a smile)

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

"......Yes, I run a commercial dojang, and attempt to make a living doing so. So YES, I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Bruce to say they teach Hapkido because a guy teachs a few throws, uses circular motion and has a Malaysian Dentist tell him that to him it looks just like hapkido, so it is as you say a "Hapkido Art" - No way......"

I hope you are not holding your breath waiting for me to disagree with you. We have talked about this before and we both know that we share a common disgust for people who slap the term "hapkido" on everything from bad wrestling to kick-boxing.

I know you want to get Hapkidos' worms back in the box and I wouldn't mind helping you but the fact is that its gone WAY beyond that. What we needed was the original Hapkido players to do a better job of working together. They didn't and now we have not just Hapkido a'la Choi, but Hapkido a'la Ji and Hapkido a'la Pelligrini etc etc etc. In fact Hapkido has become a generic term and there is no way to go backwards. What we CAN do is stop the deterioration of the arts by stopping the bleeding now. We already have a multitude of versions of the Hapkido arts. We can't roll that back. But we CAN acknowledge that Hapkido, even as a generic term continues to demonstrate and possess qualities unique to what it is and what it has become. Heres a couple that come to mind.

1.) Hapkido IS a Mu-Do. There is emptyhand and there is weapons work. The weapons work proceeds from a constellation of practices that the Korean adopted by deciding that those adopted practices reflected how they saw things being done. OK so maybe one person doesn't do rope-work and another person "loves" cane. In the kwan I belong to we have 6 traditional weapons. Still, when I do a weapon I do Korean weapon, not the comparable weapon brought in from another culture.

2.) Hapkido is bound by the Three Principles. This isn't just the Yon Mu Kwan or Myung talking. Every Hapkido tradition speaks of these same Principles though with some variance from group to group. Even Choi reported spoke of these principles, at least thats what each person who trained with him reports.

3.) Hapkido has both striking/kicking AND grappling. Some traditions more than other traditions. Judging from those lists on the other thread some people have added kicks and some have dropped kicks but there are kicks, punches and strikes and locks and throws etc etc in all of the traditions.

Now regarding Lim I have to say that we can't rule-out corruption with his material as much as anyone elses. Sorry, but I can't accept that training in Japan didn't corrupt what he learned from Choi any less than Ji's or Lee's or Seos' material was influenced by their alternate teachers. Unless you have an affidavit from Choi specifying every technique (3,000 some-odd?) we are just going to have to agree that your reconstituting the "Choi" tradition is fraught with the same problems as my study of the MYTBTJ.

As far as humility goes--- well, ----I happen to be very proud of my humility which may just happen to be the best practiced humility around! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Ahhhh. That's more like it. Nice post, Bruce.

Now how do we make this happen? Bruce, are you going to start your own federation? Because to make your dream into a reality, I think you are going to have to.

(BTW, it's good to know you and Kevin can talk to each other the way you two do and still remain friends. You guys talk to each other like two people who have been married for years...bringing out the old relationship baggage every time the debate gets heated.)

Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

".........Now how do we make this happen? Bruce, are you going to start your own federation? Because to make your dream into a reality, I think you are going to have to......."

With apologies to the memory of the late President Nixon, let me make this perfectly clear--- and I will use very simple words for the kids in the cheap seats.

I DO NOT want my own organization. I hope that is plain enough for everyone reading this. I fervently believe that we can accomplish what it is we are discussing here if we can just get past the "turf" thing. We need to get past the "turf thing" OR (failing that) find a way to put it in perspective and keep it their. For 1400 years of Korean martial tradition there was never a "turf thing". teachers who hit the end of benefit to a student encouraged the student to the next level, or art, or teacher, etc. There was no rank and no certification. If you wanted to get a job using MA you took a Civil Service exam. The only people I have found who want to push the idea of "turf" are folks for whom the concept of "turf" and its attendent bits like rank and authority has gotten out of perspective.

And thanks for the kudo-s RE: Kevin and I. maybe the idea of "old married people" isn't so far fetched. Being married doesn't guarentee a working relationship--- tis something that needs to be developed. There are tricks and gimics and what-not but in the end its just hard work. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Fine! Don't start a federation!

So then when are you going to throw a weekend party for all the Illinois (and larger geographic area) to get together, throw down beers, and talk about what each kwan is doing?!! I'd have it at my place, but I think my two bedroom Chicago condo is too small. But maybe we can meet in a Chicago Korean BBQ. Lord knows there are enough of them on the northwest side.

Seriously, it was mentioned before about having friendship gathering. You poo-pooed it at the time. But what else do we have? Those people who are interested will show up and share what they are doing. Those people who don't show up...well, who cares?

No one will be the "leader" of the gathering. It will be open for all hapkidoists (even the combat people).

Seminars aren't the same because one person is the "leader" and politics get involved. We just need a freaking party.

Jeremy

 

[iron_ox]

Fine! Don't start a federation!

So then when are you going to throw a weekend party for all the Illinois (and larger geographic area) to get together, throw down beers, and talk about what each kwan is doing?!! I'd have it at my place, but I think my two bedroom Chicago condo is too small. But maybe we can meet in a Chicago Korean BBQ. Lord knows there are enough of them on the northwest side.

Seriously, it was mentioned before about having friendship gathering. You poo-pooed it at the time. But what else do we have? Those people who are interested will show up and share what they are doing. Those people who don't show up...well, who cares?

No one will be the "leader" of the gathering. It will be open for all hapkidoists (even the combat people).

Seminars aren't the same because one person is the "leader" and politics get involved. We just need a freaking party.

Jeremy

Agreed

 

[Master Todd Miller]

You said yourself that Doju Lim reported to you that he teaches a Japanese tradition. Why not just bill it as such? If it has no place in traditional Korean martial science except that you carve a place out for it why not come up front with it?


I have never said that GM Lim teaches a Japanese MA!!! GM Lim studied a Japanese art along with Korean Kumdo or Kum Bup call it whatever is convient for you. The sword art he now teaches is Korean with Japanese influences, why is this soooo hard for you to understand? GM Lim studied with the Founder for 22 years IN KOREA, Korean Hapkido. GM Lim has never said anything about being the only person that teaches Choi's Hapkido. If you want to you can look on GM Lim's web page where it shows his certifications and from whom. This is not about carving out some spot in a market place as you put it bruce. It is about telling the truth about things that others have lied about! :supcool:

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Barrie]

HI Folks,

My computer hs been down so I have just caught up with the thread.

A point of clarification, Chang Chi Il's Dojonim certificate states that he is "Hae" Dojonim meaning DJN outside Korea. This information comes from the person who drew up the certificate for DJN Choi to take to the USA.

Apparently DJN Choi wanted to appoint a successor in 1980, not his son, who he considered was not ready. However he was convinced that it was appropriate to appoint his son with the condition that he continue to train under one of the more experienced members. When the son died his wife felt obliged to appoint a DJn and chose Kim Yung Sang.

Make of it what you will. Both recipients of the titles received them humbly, from all reports, and appear to respect the honour and responsibilities attached to such, legitimate or not.

Now back to what DJN Choi actually taught and to whom.

Todd, as soon as my doctors clear me for travel I intend to visit Korea and will follow your suggestion. Thanks for your input.

Kind regards,

Barrie

 

[glad2bhere]

I have never said that GM Lim teaches a Japanese MA!!! GM Lim studied a Japanese art along with Korean Kumdo or Kum Bup call it whatever is convient for you. The sword art he now teaches is Korean with Japanese influences, why is this soooo hard for you to understand? GM Lim studied with the Founder for 22 years IN KOREA, Korean Hapkido. GM Lim has never said anything about being the only person that teaches Choi's Hapkido. If you want to you can look on GM Lim's web page where it shows his certifications and from whom. This is not about carving out some spot in a market place as you put it bruce. It is about telling the truth about things that others have lied about! :supcool:

www.millersmudo.com

The problem, as I see it is that your responses are either obscure, non-specific or contradictory. In addition you keep responding to things that AREN'T asked and adding in in emotion-laden bits ("lied"?) along the the way. Why don't you just answer the questions straight out?

a.) Did you, or did you not say that Lim identifies what he does as what he was taught by Choi? OK. NOW does he identify THAT which he teaches as a Japanese or Korean tradition. This is not a trick question. Its going to be one or the other.

b.) Did you, or did you not identify the sword that Lim teaches as "Korean, with Japanese influences"? Thats fine. You have also reported that Lim studied Korean and three kinds of Japanese sword. I understand perfectly. If it is a "Korean art with Japanese influences" there is no need to "invent" Guhapdo. The Koreans never used a "quick draw" art after the fashion of Eishin-Ryu. They has SOME quick-draw skills but not a whole separate art. There are a couple of reasons for this we can talk about later if you like. In the meantime, though, I suggest that if Lim wants to introduce Eishin-Ryu to Korea he do so and simply identify it as Eishin-Ryu. If he wants to teach Korea Kum-Bup then he can use his experience to polish or address the limited numbers of quick-draw techniques such as already available in traditional sword. I would be very willing to introduce him to Kwanjang Koo who would undoutedly find his sword skills acceptable enough to make introductions in Korea. Just a thought.

c.) I understand that 22 years of training and proper papers are very important to you. I, as well, take tham as important indicators. On the other hand everybody reading this post knows how open to intrerpretation paper, time in grade, time on the mat and so forth are. Remember Lee, Joo Bang and his claims? Everybody makes claims and everybody has paper. Maybe I start tallying up those 22 years and I find them suspect. Maybe I don't think the paper is important or authentic. Maybe the next guy you bring it up with is wholly impressed. Its just people being people. Something that would make me feel much more impressed would be adulation or validation by other Hapkido leaders identifying who THEY would back as the identified senior in the Choi tradition. Has Lim ever approached the top 30 ranking Korean nationals for their validation of his standing? Might be something to consider. Otherwise it would seem he's just one more person making huge claims, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Fine! Don't start a federation!

So then when are you going to throw a weekend party for all the Illinois (and larger geographic area) to get together, throw down beers, and talk about what each kwan is doing?!! I'd have it at my place, but I think my two bedroom Chicago condo is too small. But maybe we can meet in a Chicago Korean BBQ. Lord knows there are enough of them on the northwest side.

Seriously, it was mentioned before about having friendship gathering. You poo-pooed it at the time. But what else do we have? Those people who are interested will show up and share what they are doing. Those people who don't show up...well, who cares?

No one will be the "leader" of the gathering. It will be open for all hapkidoists (even the combat people).

Seminars aren't the same because one person is the "leader" and politics get involved.

I think you misunderstood. Let me see if I can make my position clearer.

I have no problem getting together. What I have a problem with is "business as usual". You are absolutely right that seminars are not the anwer. I ALSO believe that we do not benefit by completely keeping politics out. In fact I think that politics needs to come out of the closet into the light of day and be discussed for the influence (for better OR worse) that it continues to play in what we do. Everybody keeps saying to keep politics out but everyone agrees it is a potent force that keeps influencing things. OK. Lets invite "IT" in and give it a place at the table, yes?

I also don't see a weekend party as the answer either. I think a slow networking of folks who have roughly the same take on things would be a start. I can't see, for instance, throwing out invitations to 20 or 30 people and spending half the time working to get folks introduced to others and a common agenda. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Bruce, the biggest difference here is that the other "30" top Korean nationals DO NOT have the papers...