Hapkido Kwans

[greendragon]

<<Under such a model if we "underlings" are to hold to our place and pay loyalty and support to people in position of responsibility over us, it is also required, by the same model, that people in positions of responsibility act with honor, justice and benevolence to care after the needs of those under them. >>


Very well said...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

Kevin:

Check your PM; Re: a referral to your classes.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I believe that Loyalty is important because like the saying of the Christians and Catholics say : ' The family that prays together stays together ' and by other expressions are like this one ' Strength comes from unity '.

Ramon,

While loyalty is a fine virtue, it is also a two way street. The student bows to the instructor, the instructor bows back.

I have seen students abused over the years by instructors...and Grandmasters...that preached loyalty and respect. Advocacy of these two virtues was used to humiliate and guilt-trip students when they questioned their mistreatment. It is often quite effective. Students with low self esteems are particularly vulnerable to it.

If you've not been subject to this abuse...wonderful. Many have been.

I believe that HapKiDo to be done correctly, it must not be mixed and I know that many other people do not think like I do and I respect that.

As for mixing...I've touched on this topic in other threads, other areas of Martialtalk, and in talking about other arts. IT HAPPENS. It is an inexorable process...one that can't be stopped. Students and instructors are going to look at other systems, kwans, styles, what have you and see something that they want to integrate. A Hapkido instructor will see a Shoot stylist do a trap off a kick and execute a take down off of it. It works. It is similar to one, perhaps, the HKD teacher knows. It fills a gap or it augments what he knows. He starts to experiment with it....

Is this wrong? Hardly. A scan of the history of the martial arts and human progress shows that this is an inevitable outcome. Arts evolve. They "mix genes".

Koreans were doing this fifty years ago. They might be doing it today, for all I know. I tend to see a conceptual arthritis setting into many arts, though, wherein the heads of systems promote their methods as "complete" and not needing any further development...unless, of course, they're the ones doing the developing.

Don't get me wrong...I have nothing against tradition or holding fast to techniques as taught by one master. The latter is necessary from an archival point of view, if nothing else. But that master DIDN'T learn techniques as handed down for 1,500 years, unchanged and immutable. Somebody, somewhere, experimented. They adapted. They absorbed.


Regards,


Steve Scott

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Steve:

"......As for mixing...I've touched on this topic in other threads, other areas of Martialtalk, and in talking about other arts. IT HAPPENS. It is an inexorable process...one that can't be stopped. Students and instructors are going to look at other systems, kwans, styles, what have you and see something that they want to integrate. A Hapkido instructor will see a Shoot stylist do a trap off a kick and execute a take down off of it. It works. It is similar to one, perhaps, the HKD teacher knows. It fills a gap or it augments what he knows........."

Honestly I agree with everything you are saying. In fact there is a long tradition of students leaving their original school to trek to other schools to expand their training. Often times this was with a referral in hand from the old teacher to the new teacher! The biggest telling difference is that the student making the trek had a thorough founding in his original art before going on to something else and that original art was maintained as the focal part of that individuals' MA career. I think one of the best examples of what I am talking about was the famous lose of Minamoto Musashi to a stick-wielding opponent who spared his life. Musashi did not go on to incorporate stick fighting into Nito-ryu. He DID however go off and workout strategies that helped him overcome his opponent in a later encounter---- sparing that fellows' life in turn. The biggest mistake that I see is that students who aspire to mixing material do not wait until they have a decent appreciation of the tactics and strategies of a particular art but simply work to juggle a collection of disparate techniques. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

I will admit that I definately mix arts in my Hapkido classes.. I come from a wrestling background and have competed and coached that sport.. I incorporate wrestling in my Hapkido curriculum and I tell my guys that's what they are doing.. I think that the ground applications in Hapkido are not very good and are just a basic token when it comes to techniques, I feel as an instructor and martial artist that if I DON'T show my guys a better and more realistic way then I am a failure...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

From what I have been able determine the whole idea behind the Korean Mu-Do is exactly that----- to provide an introduction of sorts and then to expand on the material as needed. For instance, in Yon Mu Kwan there are some 36 pressure points at 1st degree BB and these are studied in hand with learning how to use the first weapon or soh bong. At 2nd degree BB there are 48 strike points and these are learned in conjunction with the dan bong. The same goes for the cane at 3rd degree and the sword at fourth degree. The point is, though, none of these curriculum are exhaustive. Rather they only teach the fundamentals, or introduction material. Depending on a persons' inclination or needs they might pursue in greater depth some one or more of these weapons, or maybe just focus on the MI hand material. In my case, for instance, I have come to really engage in sword work and long ago exceeded the basics that GM Myung posits. Another person might like to focus on cane because it also includes dealing with attacks in positions of disadvantage such as the ground-fighting you mentioned. In fact they might go into BJJ in depth to augment their Hapkido, but that would still be after they had mastered the basics so they understand how the various areas of training relate to each other. A person can stay with MT Hand and delve into the most minute aspects of that part and only learn the cursory information about the weapons. Another person may learn the soh bong and get stuck on learning pressure point fighting. It really depends on a persons' goals and character. However, to my way of thinking it always comes back to learning the Hapkido material first. That is the skeleton upon which everything else is hung. Hapkido for the Hapkido practitioner is the system that organizes everything else that comes their way. Without such organization, one has simply a grab-bag of disparate techniques. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I see where we are inadvertently redirecting the direction of posted information. This subject (KHF & Mr. H) is fading on other sites also. Even the KHF site has nothing but "around talk" and very little at that.

Just have only one question......... Is anything going to be done about the problem(s) or has everybody had their fill of venting and now it will just fade away to resurface again sometime in the furture?

:moon: That's what the party in question will say to kiss if this just goes away.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I don't know about anyone else but I have set some personal limits.

Originally there was to have been an announcement of great import on December 6th. Nothing has happened.

Since that time there have been what I would characterize as "clarifications" by various people but nothing definitive regarding the single individual in question.

As of January 6th there will have been 30 days for people to have laid out their concerns, summarize their "cases", communicate issues to people in positions of authority and forward any supportive evidence.

Now, I don't pretend to speak for anyone but myself but here is my take on things. For the last couple of years I have raised the issue of governement oversight for the Korean MA. What I have been told is that practitioners of the KMA want to watch themselves and not have governement interference. For me this is a major "acid test" whether such an effort will work. Any interested person has had a chance to know about the charges, become acquainted with the players and voice their position over the last 18 months. What remains is for the KHF to come forward with a plan of action. I suggest that 30 days is a sufficient amount of time in our day and age of instant communication. I also suggest that unless there is a meaningful and binding announcement in the next 30 dats, inclusive, the KHF has failed in its responsibility to enforce its own policies in a timely manner.

The issues raised are not simple infractions, but major misrepresentations and abuses of standing and authority. If the KHF is not up to handling such affairs---- and I submit that failing to announce a determination in 30 days would show this---- than I would conclude that they have lost the authority to represent themselves as an administrative entity for the Hapkido arts. That does not mean that they can't continue to represent themselves as a purveyor of certs and licenses, however, purporting to speak as a unifying and administrative representative for Hapkido will no longer be valid in my book and I will make sure that wherever the issue of organizations comes up in the future, I will be around to remind people of these travesties. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, it looks like were the only ones interested in the outcome. I see over on the KHF site that Mr.H or someone saying they are is posting. That site is kind of confusing with regards to posters. Some times it's kind of hard to tell who's side some of them are on. It's just hard for me to understand that nothing and I mean nothing is being stipulated by either the KHF or the people affected by what has been done. I know if it was my money and time and name being trashed because of somebodies fraudulent actions, I'd be seeing red and looking for some kind of justice. I think I would be going out of my way to find some kind of recourse to go after the person in question and would be letting the entire Martial Arts world know what was going on, every chance I could get. But that's just me, perhaps My outlook is too provincial for these times.:idunno:

 

[Bob D.]

This is sort of hard to follow. For those of us who don't know, can someone tell me what's happening in a nutshell?
Thanks, B

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Bob.

In a nutshell there has been some nasty business in the Korea Hapkido Federation and almost all of ti centers on the misrepresenations of a particular entrepeneurial member who took a great deal of license with what he said and did as he invoked the name of the KHF and its president Oh See Lim to support his behaviors. The controversey has raged for about 18 mos to 2 years now and while much of the behaviors have been uncovered for what they are, the KHF and its higher ranks seem retiscent to act on things for fear of alienating a sizeable number of people still affiliated with this person. In my own case, the injury has been particularly personal, and I have little faith that the KHF will do little if anything in any event. Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Over on the KHF site, Mr. H is posting and it looks like things may be heating up somewhat. As I stated over there, I don't understand why any legal action (if it is warrented), has not been forthcoming. If the accusers have proof, then they should have done something by now you would think.

 

[glad2bhere]

It may heat up, but not because of me and not after today. I have pretty much washed my hands of him and anything he has to do with. Short of showing up at my class and making trouble he simply doesn't exist for me after today.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, your position is understandable. Even though I have no connection to what has transpired, I was an interested observer to the proceedings. But it looks like there is nothing further to observe. If nothing has happened by now, I doubt anything will happen at all.

Mabey the old saying "Remember the Alamo" should be changed to "Remember the Enron".....:shrug:

 

[Disco]

http://hapkidokorea.org/english/ The BBS section. Mr. H if it is in fact Mr. H is calling the accusers out. This lends itself to one of two things. 1). He is untouchable from a legal standpoint or 2) This was nothing more than a personal vendetta by those who may have a legit grevience, but no real recourse other than to vent frustrations. Which is understandable if the legal option is unavailable. I think number 1 is most probable, otherwise something would have been done and reported to everybody by now. Do I believe that something dishonest or unscrupulous has occured? Most assuredly, to many people are claiming foul and stating such. To those that were/are affected by what has transpired, as a fellow KMA practicioner, I offer my humble apology on behalf of all honorable and respectfull martial artists, for what has happened. I guess it's time to follow Bruce's example and wash our hands of it.

This has done nothing but give the KMA's in general, a big black eye. :asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

First of all, I am one of those accusers. Second of all assumptions are a dangerous thing. It takes time to get all your ducks in a row. There is nothing more to it than that. I know others have already been in touch with various authorities, but having been in law enforcement, I have a very good idea of what is needed and the approach I need to take. The other problem for me is that many of my certificates are in FL in a storage bin, and I am in CA. My better half did not see the KHF cert or my CDK cert, so now I'm going to have to make time to go back and grab them. I cannot move forward until I have all the documentation I need, and in the appropriate formats.

Hope this helps.

In my mind, what the guy really needs is to be jerked into the woods and educated.

 

[glad2bhere]

This is NOT the first time this has happened and whatever occurs this particular person will be back--- or somebody like him. How do I know this? For cryin' out loud will you people please take a look at the circumstances?

1.) You are dealing in a service industry predicated on a cultural intangible. Right off the bat we are in the realm of peanut butter jars on Mars and how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

2.) The real commodity of concern here is status and standing. As if things are not subjective enough already we are almost into the area of Britney Spears Marriage and Paris Hiltons' video tape.

3.) Look what happens when anyone tries to bring reason into the equation. Denial. Lies/deceit. Misrepresentation. Malfeasance.

4.) Look carefully at what the supposed authorities are doing about any of this. Nothing.

You know I would not get so het-up about this crap except everyone is acting like they really don't know what is going on here. Why don't you folks get honest with yourselves. You knew damn good and well that there was something wrong when rank was being sold for so much money and with so few questions and so little testing. Everybody knew something wasn't right but noone wanted to be the first person to blow the whistle. Please don't insult my intelligence by pretending all of this stuff went down and nobody had a clue. Statements without proof? Dirty tricks? Reputations impuned? And all of this is done from behind the safety of a phone never answered, a computer keyboard, or from the margin of a mat never trod. You folks knew damn good and well what was going on so now people are suppose to expect that you are somehow victims. Had it not been for a few select behavioral excesses this same crap would still be going on today and you all would still be supporting him.

There is something to be said for having a good woman in my life and I must tell you honestly (this goes out to Disco) that if anyone gets credit for encouraging me to back away from this circus its my wife and not me. Among Native Americans a man is measured by how mighty his enemies are. My wife was cagey enough to mention that by responding to the childish antics of such a person he stood to gain more by standing in the recognition of accomplished martial artists than he had the courage to earn honestly for himself. This is exactly the same patterns the well-known Internet Trolls use and what feeds their misbehavior. Its what makes people stand next to identified personalities in pictures, suck up to corporate heads at parties, avoid actually being seen doing techniques by anyone who could judge true competence, and negotiate for advancement rather than earn it.

I have already said much of this many times before and in a lot of places its time to stop. As I say to my clients in counseling I have no intention of working harder at your problems than you are. You already know whats wrong. Its up to you to fix it.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Sir,

Very well said. And unfortunately, it is all true. I have to admit, I was one of them who did not want to admit the truth. I believed all the crap pumped into me because I did not want to see I had been wrong. I think its natural. We can only pick up the pieces and move forward. As I have clearly stated, that person is dead to me. I have moved forward, and am working on my future path, wich I cannot definitively say what it will hold, but then can anyone?

 

[Disco]

From the KHF web site:
The Mr. Richard Hackworth Case

The Korea Hapkido Federation announces that the case related to Mr. Richard Hackworth of Haemu-Kwan in the US has been processed as the follows;

1. The KHF does not recognize any qualification officially of Mr. Richard Hackworth except the next two;
o The KHF Certified 6th Dan Black Belt
o The KHF Certified Master

2. The KHF recognizes "Hae Mu Kwan" as a certified Dojang continuously.

3. The KHF restricts Master Richard Hackworth's official activities only at his Dojang "Hae Mu Kwan".

4. The KHF does not recognize any certificate at any case including Dan certificates which are issued by Master Richard Hackworth privately or in the name of "Hae Mu Kwan".



Jan. 7. 2004.
The Korea Hapkido Federation

So he's still a member in good standing and those that got wronged are just out of luck? Nice organization.:shrug:

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

So, it took the KHF two months to decide to do nothing except let the gravy train roll on...They have not addressed anything in regard to the suspicision of fraud or mis-representation - how sad...

For me, the KHF has lost any and all moral authority to issue rank in Hapkido if this kind of thing can go on. It is time to ignore the KHF as a governing body - that is not to say that very good people are not issued certs. there in the past, but from this day, I will not hold KHF rank with the same respect at all.

When a puppy makes a mess on the carpet, you don't just laugh and say "Its just the puppy in him...", you had better scold him and clean up the poop, or you will be knee deep in it really fast - welcome to the world of the KHF!

But hey, we could all just join the KHF, with school names like YakUp Dough Kwan, issue a bunch of phoney KHF paper, get lots of money, basically do whatever we want, including appointing ourselves 9th Dans, and the worst that can happen from the KHF? Nothing. They will reissue all the crappy paper we hand out (for a fee) and tell everyone that we have a particular rank - so the money will keep flowing in - hooray!

Just a few thoughts.

Kevin Sogor