Hapkido Kwans

[Kodanjaclay]

I am, as we speak, trying to get the ball rolling with the appropriate authorities. I expect to be contacting the Florida Attorney General's office later this week.

There is; however, something else I am working on. Since the KHF is over seas, and feels it is not accountable to anything, or anyone here, I have elected to take my battle to Korea. Should I be successful, what I have done will be apparent to all who read this post.

I won't clarify in this media, as I don't want certain parties to be able to make a defense.

In another vein, I am also working on the involvement of mainstream media. TKDT is not a large enough venture, and based on the current scandal in tKD, I doubt they would want to report on another scandal at this time... however, there are news outlets who LOVE a good scandal, particularly when it involves losing money. In this effort, the contact information of anyone else who has been attacked, or duped would be helpful.

I can be reached at [email protected]. Let's hope apathy doesn't let this slip away.

 

[Disco]

http://hapkidokorea.org/english/gallery_files/newlogo2_2004_02_05_1075990009.gif


The post I made on page 9 of this thread came true. Now if I could only do that with the lottery numbers. :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Disco]

Frank, trying to tackle the home front (Korea) is questionable. Their cultural differences could give you more problems than you bargained for. You may want to let a sleeping dog lie so to speak. Besides, they have proven time and again that they could care less for outside opinions. I think it would serve you and other's better to focus your efforts on Florida and company. Speaking of Florida, did the AG give you anything positive to followup on? You mentioned on your last post that later in the week past you were going to contact them. Kind of surprised you waited this long. Personally, I would have been looking to pound some salt months ago. You must be a very good natured person and respect friendship. I've seen where you still are trying to be of service to people on behalf of Boston. Your a better man than me. I would have packed and set sail long ago from the KHF and anything remotely connected with them.

As far as mainstream media goes, I'm sure you are well versed in making sure that no backfire doors get opened. I'm sure any information you have gotten from the Fla. AG will guide you in the right direction. Please keep us posted as to your progress.

 

[iron_ox]

From the KHF Site:

Confusion caused by English name of the KHF
Writer : the KHF ([email protected])


"The Korea Hapkido Federation" is the English name of ¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe". "Dae Han" means Korea, and "Hyup Hwoe" means federation in English.

1. "Dae Han" or "Han Kook" in Korean expression
The official name of Korea is "Dae Han Min Kook" in Korean, and "The Republic of Korea" in English. Many people use the name of "Han Kook" from the second and the fourth syllables of the full name "Dae Han Min Kook" for convenience, when they call a country, Korea. (Kook is sometimes expressed in Kuk.)
And "Dae Han" is used traditionally as a prefix in lots of names to express Korea like in the official name of the country, Korea. When you see names containing the meaning of Korea, you can easily find "Dae Han" in the names of traditional, original and historical. So many names appearing after them have no alternative except "Han Kook" to express Korea.
However, all these are translated in the same word "Korea" or "Korean" in English. And this make non-Korean speaking people very confused.

2. "Hyup Hwoe" , "Federation" and "Association"
¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe" has its name in English ""The Korea Hapkido Federation". Here, "Hyup Howe" is translated in "Federation" instead of "Association". For sometime, people didn't care much about the English expression. We know that the literal meaning of "Hyup Howe" is closer to the word "Association". And we admit that normally it is translated in association. However, the boards of directors adopted the word "Federation". And we have registered that name as our foreign name to the Korean government for ¡°Dae Han Hapkido Hyup Hwoe" since 1990.



So, in case you still don't know how to make out the money orders for the worthless wallpaper, you have now been reminded of the proper name...

This is the kind of thing that con artists do; remind you of the proper spelling of their name, before they empty your wallet...

This post by them is just bizarre to me.

Kevin Sogor

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think that part of the problem is when people think that because an organization is bigger, this means better. As we have seen this is not always true. Before Doju Nim Choi passed on he had already condemmed the KHF for being fraudulent and this was 1982 - 86. If you find a good kwan and you like the Master stick with it. Remember paper is only paper and a certificate is only as good as the weakest person holding it in any organization.

Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association

 

[Disco]

Very interesting, thank you Mr Miller for the information. The founder of Hapkido - Choi, blasted them in the 80's. It seems as though when we have someone new that joins the discussion, another damaging piece of information is brought forth. So all this landfill garbage goes back over 20 years. There's only one question here. How in the world were they allowed to continue for so long. Kind of makes one wonder if some of the higher ranking American members actually have legit standing. But then again, if Choi called them a fraud, perhaps nobody is legit in the organization. That would be a shame, especially to all the honest hardtraining individuals who's only fault was to place their trust in the wrong people.

I have stated before that perhaps it was long overdue for the seperation and establishment of a new American organization by the members who can see the so called "Forest for the trees". Why members would want to stay attached to something that clearly has shown disreguard for just about everything is beyond me. Even though I personally am not involved, I do get tired and annoyed, every time I see people being taken advantage of by people who are supposed to be above reproach and who are supposed to represent the Martial Arts at it's highest level.

 

[glad2bhere]

Ok, Ok, I KNOW this has come up a zillion times. And, yes, I know that the Korean culture has problems tranliterating Western institutions and agencies into Korean just like we have the same problem going the other way. I just find it very hard to believe that the Korean language does not delineate between an association and a federation when the meaning is all too clear to Westerners. Certainly the Koreans must discern between organizations in which the right of determination is predominantly in the hands of the membership and one in which it is mostly delegated to elected or designated officials---- don't they? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

OK, now I'm more than totally confused. Over on Budoseek.net, Mr. H is posting and from the information that's spruing forth, there seems now to be (2) TWO different and Seperate(?) KHF organizations. DUH!....... This is starting to look like a Chinese Fire Drill:mst:

I've heard more straight talk from the extra-terrestrials that visit and do anal probes:lol: on our Politicans (I'm pretty sure that's what happens, cause we all know that they think different than the rest of us) :uhohh:

If CBS is looking for a new soap opera, looks like they'll find one here. Casting should be interesting, cause all the martial arts movie stars that have won Oscars will surely be lineing up to audition. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Disco
OK, now I'm more than totally confused. Over on Budoseek.net, Mr. H is posting and from the information that's spruing forth, there seems now to be (2) TWO different and Seperate(?) KHF organizations. DUH!....... This is starting to look like a Chinese Fire Drill:mst:

I've heard more straight talk from the extra-terrestrials that visit and do anal probes:lol: on our Politicans (I'm pretty sure that's what happens, cause we all know that they think different than the rest of us) :uhohh:

If CBS is looking for a new soap opera, looks like they'll find one here. Casting should be interesting, cause all the martial arts movie stars that have won Oscars will surely be lineing up to audition. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Too Funny

 

[glad2bhere]

I guess I am not understanding why it is taking people so long to understand what they are dealing with here.

Oh See Lim represents the desire to expand Hapkido as an international venture after the fashion of TKD/TSD/ WHRDA/WKSWA/etc. To this end, money talks and is the final (if not lowest) common denominator in everything that is done in his name. He split off from the KHF to produce the "world federation" because a significant portion of the masters associated with the original KHF see a crying need to support the Hapkido arts as a cultural institution worthy of respect and integrity. You will continue to see certs sold, seminars promoted and various other commercial efforts made using Oh See Lim as the guarentor of their efforts. If business integrity actually meant anything, do you think that Robert would be letting those posts on BUDO-SEEK? Do you think that Pointer would allow his name to be mentioned? You folks folks need to wake-up and smell the manure. The much-touted "victims" in this melodrama knew exactly what they were doing and have now coalesced around the new organization in a knot of mutually-affirming fakes. It would be the same as if Ji Han Jae suddenly lent his name to a franchise chain of Hapkido parlors, and entrepeneurs elected to give each other fancy paper and agreed to support each others illusions. Its the same thing that Pelligrini did and for my money members of this "new organization" will get the same regard from me that I would give any other leper colony, though I would probably has much greater respect and compassion for the lepers. At least they don't pretend to be something that they are not.

Now, I understand that this is NOT the way it is in a lot of places. This is NOT the way it is in many organizations. This is not the way it is with many arts. It IS however the way it is with this particular situation whether you like it or not. Want things to change? Find a teacher/organization that reflects your values and support the S*** out of them!! FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Well put Bruce. Many of the great Hapkido Masters have realized that where the KHF was heading was in a comercial direction rather than a traditional direction. The sad thing is that the KHF is only one of many that are guilty of the same thing!

Take care
Todd Miller

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Todd. And now, if you don't mind I thought I would turn the tables on you.

Since we could go on for ever lambasting the zeroes, how about if we take a minute and have you tell us what it is that you find desireable about GM Lim and his approach. Don't want to put you on the spot. I just think that sometimes people like Lim don't get focused on because so much light is shown on the jerks and bozo-s. I guess what I am asking is not so much WHAT he teaches but what you find attractive about his method or manner of teaching. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

what you find attractive about his method or manner of teaching. Thoughts?


1. GM Lim will teach anyone regardless wheather or not you join his group.

2. He has never demoted people from other groups even though lack of skill/knowlege is evident.

3. My understanding is that GM Lim's focus is on learning original Hapkido not on politics.

4. I do not know of anyone that can accuse GM Lim of A. selling rank B. promoting himself above what Doju Nim Choi promoted him.

5. GM Lim starts everyone at the same place no matter what rank they are at, the basics.

I could go on and on but I think the best way to understand is to get on the mat with him and see and feel what he does.

Thoughts

Todd Miller

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

Very interesting how you can pack so much importance in just a few lines. If people had the same response to what you wrote as did I, I am guessing that thoughts like "damn, it takes a lot of guts to be a teacher like that in this modern commercial world" or something close to that. Does GM Lim support himself through his Hapkido efforts, or is this secondary to his "day job" ? When he starts people at the same point with the basics does he try to shape the individuals past experience into the methods of what he teaches, or does one simply start over again at square one? If you had an opportunity to train in DRAJJ itself, would you have passed on GM Lim's material, or is there some special connection you have found with Lim that you might not have risked trying to find with another instructor. (Sorry-- I know that last question is a bit vague.)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Very interesting how you can pack so much importance in just a few lines. If people had the same response to what you wrote as did I, I am guessing that thoughts like "damn, it takes a lot of guts to be a teacher like that in this modern commercial world" or something close to that. Does GM Lim support himself through his Hapkido efforts, or is this secondary to his "day job" ? When he starts people at the same point with the basics does he try to shape the individuals past experience into the methods of what he teaches, or does one simply start over again at square one? If you had an opportunity to train in DRAJJ itself, would you have passed on GM Lim's material, or is there some special connection you have found with Lim that you might not have risked trying to find with another instructor. (Sorry-- I know that last question is a bit vague.)

1. I do not think he relies strictly on his dojang for income.

2. GM Lim teaches what most Hapkido Masters/Grandmasters do not, Off Balence your opponent. After you have done this you can use what he teaches or you can draw from your past experience. The key is being able to break you opponents balence so strength is not required to make techniques work nor strikes or kicks.

3. I have studied DRAJJ and found that system to not be as sophisticated as GM Lim's Hapkido. I also would never do anything to jepordize my relationship with GM Lim.

Take care
Todd Miller

 

[shadow warrior]

OPEN QUERY!

Maybe it is time to have a get together of serious Hapkido Instructors in North America with their own schools, legitimate HAPKIDO lineages and at least twenty-five years of pure Hapkido training.

Perhaps a new "non financial" way could be found to confirm Hapkido skill sets and students standards! Peer recognition is a very solid way to establish skill set performance. This is particularly true when you watch a teachers students.

It would be very beneficial to set aside all of the fraud, racism and corruption and begin anew!! With a hope of Hapkido surviving as a style not requiring a person to spend ten years learning how to be an expert archer from horseback!! NOT!!

A KWAN of Hapkido agreement!! NOT A FRAUD OF INSIDER TRADING!!
Just a thought tossed around by a few instructors last year..

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido
Toronto
www.eastwesthapkido.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Keith:

I don't see such a thing happening until you have a sufficient number of Hapkido practitioners who will, of their own volition, put the good of the art and its practitioners ahead of that of leadership and the organization. There are a number of such "quiet" organizations in Korea and a few here in the States but they are a long time building and must constantly be on guard against people joining to exploit the membership. On another note, MA are, by nature, very independent minded and do not submitt to guidance from others, even their peers, and even when it is in their best interests. For my part I have tried to connect with several folks at various locations and routinely been met with suspicion and defense. All I was seeking to do was Network with people whom I thought were interested in quality. I have been disappointed every single time.

Can you get people to put their fear of losing students to one side?

Can you get teachers to put aside their defensiveness about what they do and how they do it?

Can you get varied lineages to work together in an atmosphere of mutual respect and growth?

Can you guarentee that "wannabees" with inflated paper won't be exposed when they get out on the mat?

Gotta face it, guy, most of the people who pass for leadership are big talkers when it comes to how things "ought to be" but peter out quick when they are expected to act as leaders. Too bad really. But if its any help at all you can always use the

SIMS LITMUS TEST OF LEADERSHIP.

"Think up a challenge and see if the leadership candidate will accept the challenge with all costs out of his own pocket and with no discernable gain or reward to himself personally."

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shadow warrior]

Bruce:

I know there are a few Hapkido Instructors who really do love the art. Kevin Sogor and I among others threw this idea around last year. Maybe I am a bit optomistic..there have to be more..a Network has a co-operative, beneficial conotation..rather than a centralized power structure across oceans and cultures.

True leaders take calculated risks when the benefits are interesting..a sum can be much more than the individual parts..depends on the type of math..

Don't get me wrong, I know that Hapkido does attract some VERY INDEPENDENT individuals!!

Keith Stewart

 

[glad2bhere]

(My apologies to the webmaster for the misdirected post./ BS)

>Dear Keith:
>
>Don't get me wrong. I think the idea is a great one. Look at what Master
>JR West does down in Mississippi--- twice a year. Its possible to Network
>people together and discount the need for politics. My position is that in
>order to make it work and overcome longterm obstacles and resistance, it
>is a long, slow process, perhaps even measured a single member at a time.
>The bond needs to be a focus on the good of the art, long term training
>commitments, a reasonable indifference to the profit motive and a carefree
>willingness to give until it hurts. Such people are just not kicking in
>the door looking for a Network to connect with. Now, speaking for myself,
>I have a lot to give the right group of people, and I am not shy about
>sharing anything that will help other people along. But I have to tell you
>that after years of offering my services, most often free of charge,
>paying my own fare to seminars that I teach, buying my own research
>materials, publishing books and making tapes, I am coming dangerously
>close to being burned-out after connecting with just one-too-many
>wannabees. If ever a Network gets going, such as what we are talking about
>here, my sense is that it will be more informal than formal, and that
>people will cooperate among the group members because it makes them feel
>good to do it, rather than because so-&-so is a "member" and deserves
>everybodys' support. FWIW.
>
>Best Wishes,
>
>Bruce
>

 

[rana_hapkido_panama2002]

To you and Danielle, be blessed and welcome to the new commer to your family. I am Ramon Navarro, HapKiDo teacher from the country of Panama. My hope to you both is that it he/she be very healthy; congrats !!!

HAP

Disco,

The list you received from Dr. Hackworth is accurate. Oh Se Lim will be at his school this month should you have any questions for him. All KHF members are invited to attend this event, and indeed are expected to participate. I have heard that Mr. Bae will be present as well, who is a subordinate to Oh Se Lim, the President.


I may or may not be present because I just found out that I'm about to be a pappy, so that changes the situation for me. Danielle has no family here, so I will not leave her here to her own devices.