Hapkido Kwans

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Just a thought, seems funny to me that the totally biased Mr. Carver from BludoSeek shows up on the KHF site, asks some questions and blammo, Florida Rep. appears...

How will this work, Florida has stated how much he hates Boston and Kim Bum in the UK, can they all just get along. HAHA!

Why did anyone think this was ever going to work? Florida was never kicked out and would have Boston as his superior. Also funny how Florida blasted the KHF Director on the KHF site, and no action, now KHF President will make another appearance in Florida - this whole orgainzation is a joke that stains Hapkido.

Looks like the President and the Director of the KHF have different agendas altogether - although maybe another name change is in the works, at least for "English" - how about Korean Hapkido con-Federation?

Randon thoughts,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Kevin,

Assuming for one second that I am inclined to stay affiliated with Hapkido, what makes you think the Kido, or another organization will be any different? Kukkiwon just got busted, the KHF is CLEARLY on the take, there was the KTA scandal... so why would I be so inclined to think that another organization would be good? I'm just looking for a little information, not trying to be inflammatory. Kido has closed it doors until 2006 for similar issues. It is disconcerting to find that the organizations themselves to not hold to what we were taught as color belts. Does that mean we are part of the same fraud? Why do I bother to train when someone walks in with a couple hundred bucks more and gets exactly what he wants without training?

Maybe you are right, and right now I'm just very dejected, but look at it from my point of view. People I trusted for a very long time, lied to me, and took my money. That makes it somewhat difficult to trust. Funny thing is, just before that name was snuck into the list, Hal Whalen had just about talked me into the giving the KHF a second chance. Then whammo.

 

[Disco]

Frank, I truely understand your frustration with the KMA's. The main problem is not in the art(s), but rather in the people that represent. I know the following statement will surely piss off lots of people, but I call it as I see it. The Koreans, in general, only care about the money. I've seen them turn everything they touch into crap. Past history only validates this (USTU, KTA, KHF, Kukkiwon, OLC etc.). I've watched how they cater to those that will increase their pocket book, while other's who train and excell only serve as a threat to them and they will not promote accordingly. It was not always like that. How and why it changed could have many roads, but they all converge on the highway of greed. There may be some out there that are lucky enough to have a good GM and have a great relationship based on mutual respect. There are possibly a few of the old core Instructors left, but very, very few. I've ranted about the possibility of having an American Organization, but I recant that idea. I honestly think that the time has come to return to the original concept of the kwans. No more organizations, just your school and your instructor. The bottom line to all this is your training. If it serves you and you are confident in it's effectiveness, then that's all that matters. I have yet to hear or see where anybody stopped an attacker by showing or hitting him with their certificate.

You all ready have an invite to train in Chicago. You ever find yourself back in Florida, you have an open invitation to come and laugh and train at our little corner of the world. I'm sure there are other's here that would extend their hand of friendship also. That to me represents true martial arts integrity - sharing and learning.

 

[iron_ox]

Frank,

Sorry, didn't want to give you the wrong idea...I am not saying any other organization in Korea is better that the KHF - they all have real serious problems - not to mention, as I have, that the current head of the Choi Lineage, Chang Chin Il does not recognize any of the current Korean Groups!!

What I was saying is that there is lots of Hapkido out there, even some orgainzations, that represent the martial art a lot better than the KHF. I just don't think its fair to label the art as a loss for an association (KHF) that is in full decline.

Yep, I do belong to some organizations, and in my 25 years or so in Hapkido, I have seen some better groups than others, now, with me, my students have a choice to join the groups I am affiliated with or not. My certificates are stand alones, or students can also get paper from my affiliations as well, but like I said before, if you ever end up near Chicago, lets train - there are no strings - just a little joint pain (but that generally goes away in a day or two...)

Associations are only as good as the leadership, and the membership - but I will say this, when someone walks in and buys a grade with big bucks - that is the time to move on and not feel sorry -

Disco,

I feel that we already have a few good American organizations that represent Hapkido - we also have several smaller Korean Groups that may be a good bet - I'll keep you posted...

However, I do agree with you, the school system is the key - an instructor grades his students, if he finds like minded other instructors, they accept each others grades and share ideas - OK, it does sound like an association, but in this model, the money element and the EGOS are left behind...

Sincerely, a hapkido instructor,

Kevin

 

[iron_ox]

Let the grass grow tall in Korea, because the US membership of the KHF wants to take a big bite!

The cash cow says MOOOOO!


LOL!

Kevin

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin, Mike, Frank et al:

Sometimes when I am working with a client and things don¡¯t add up logically, that is my first indication that something is seriously wrong and I need to reconsider what I thought was happening. I am getting the same gut reaction here. Too many times have I seen 2+2 and the answer is anything but four.

1.) Robert from BUDO-SEEK comes on and says lets do a certificate comparison. OK, fine. Where? When? How? Certs have been passed around all over the place but how is it that noone QUITE seems to get around to getting all of the players and papers in the same room at the same time with someone who can speak with authority about the authenticity of the paper? Funny how this simply obvious solution never quite gets accomplished because in the end it would settle this once and for all.

2.) How about the game of ¡°KHF Scrabble¡±? It depends on what your definition of ¡°is¡± is, right? When is a ¡°director¡± not a director, and when is a grandmaster not a grandmaster? When is a representative truly a representative? In the schizophrenic world of the KHF apparently these issues only arise when the president is paid to say one thing and the director is empowered to say another thing. Get a clue!! If Oh See Lim is truly coming back to Florida for another fiasco, when are people going to figure out that there is divisiveness in the KHF and a power struggle over which way the KHF is going to go. Oh See Lim is routinely invoked by the people in Florida and he has yet to come out AGAINST the people in Florida. Do you need to get hit with a hammer to figure out what¡¯s happening here?

3.) And while I don¡¯t want to rub salt in your wounds, Frank, the fact is that you NEVER had any connection with Hapkido save the TP that your were sold. You bought it so you could have bragging rights to Hapkido, and had this whole mess not been exposed I am sure you would have defended vigorously your right to speak for the Hapkido community and invoked both Hackworth and you TP to do it. As far as I can see, you giving up Hapkido would be very much like me giving up Cricket! In fact, if it comes to that, what is that other persons¡¯ big claim to membership in Hapkido? Nothing except the paper he has purchased and the illusion he promotes to people who are to dumb too know better.

4.) I was saying to Hal that I would not mind joining the KHF and pitching in to help out, but I have a rule that I NEVER work harder at getting better than the sick person I am helping. The KHF is the way it is because , frankly, a good number of people want things that way. I would not be surprised to hear that Hal is having HIS share of folks banging on his door looking for easy validation now that Florida is not an option (or is it?).

In closing let me say that the Hapkido arts are difficult to learn, training is long, arduous, uncomfortable and very often demanding in many ways. I¡¯m hearing a lot of people who are long on talk and short on doing. Kevin has offered training time to Frank. I have already put things in motion to spend more time at that same place myself, so we could get some really great training going in Chi-town if things work right. In the near future we have GM Lim, Hyun Su coming to Chicago in March and the 20th International in Jackson, Miss. If people want to keep up this keyboard tennis match that¡¯s on them. As far as I am concerned the responsibility for being an organization of integrity is now on the KHF. But from this point on I have nothing to prove to them to ¡°get¡± membership. As far as I am concerned, they have demonstrated that THEY are unworthy of either my membership, my time or my further comment.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kodanjaclay]

"And while I don¡¯t want to rub salt in your wounds, Frank, the fact is that you NEVER had any connection with Hapkido save the TP that your were sold."

This is not exactly true. I never had a connection to a Hapkido organization. I went with the KHF, because I had been convinced of its importance, not for bragging rights. I have always maintained that I am happy with a cert hand written on a napkin. My anger is that I was lied to as well as cheated financially, and the "important" organization has basically sanctioned it. I prefer the smaller Kwan route, and that is the way I intend on following.

 

[Robert Carver]

Wow Bruce, awesome post!

Over the course of this whole drama, I have sat back and tried to keep things in perspective and not draw any conclusions either way. I have tried to keep an open mind until the ax falls one way or another. I get to hear both sides of the story concerning the whole affair; from the folks that want to nail Hackworth to the wall and from his defenders. Considering the total lack of action by the KHF and many of the little things that, like you said, don't add up, I am not sure what to think. One of the things I mentioned yesterday on the KHF site was that I has heard the rumour that the KHF site was not even the real KHF site and that Oh Se Lim was not even aware of its existance until recently. So I go to Network Solutions and I do a Whois query. Lo and behold, I learn that the domain koreahapkido.org is not even owned by the KHF. Maybe the site IS the official KHF site and maybe it is not. However, we have one more little thing that doesn't add up. It has been this, the lack of definative disciplinary action to a member that is accused of fraud, and a host of other little things that don't add up that have led me to believe that the KHF is in far bigger trouble than "just" a possible renegade member from Florida.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I agree. And based on the actions of the leadership, the question now is, just who is to blame? The one who decieved? Or is he merely following the business model given to him? Seems to me you are 100% right and the KHF IS in deeper trouble.

 

[Disco]

OK, everybody is in agreement that, 1) The KHF is not the pre-eminent organization that they would like you to believe they are and 2) People were taken.

So now back to original opening question, which I think Iron Ox referenced in a prior post, IS ANYTHING GOING TO BE DONE BY THOSE THAT WERE WRONGED?............. Any charges pending? Any kind of litigation at all?

If nothing is happing or going to happen, where just :deadhorse

 

[glad2bhere]

"......OK, everybody is in agreement that, 1) The KHF is not the pre-eminent organization that they would like you to believe they are and 2) People were taken....."

Sorry, guy, but you left off one small but very important point.

"3.) And this is the way people want it."

The fact is that the Hapkido arts are not unique and that people have been effectively buying rank for YEARS. It goes on in TKD, TSD, HKD, Karate, Judo and any other place where the esteem in which an art is held comes from the fact that it is demanding and its standards are high. I can also tell you that people are always ready to sell rank and standing for a good dollar. Oh, I bet you can come up with the names of some people with high standards who DON'T engage in this, but I can also tell you that there are a helluva lot more disgusting jerk-offs who trade in such things quite regularly. But it doesn't stop there.

Some folks who have traded comments back and forth have noticed that I have steadily cut back in the number and frequency of contributions on this and other Nets. Guess what, folks! My disgust is not limited to the people who misrepresent their standing, inflate their accomplishments or bribe office holders to go along with their agendas. I'm pretty fed-up with the laziness and apathy that allow the arts to continue to spiral downward when, for a little engagement and effort we can turn out some of the best MA around! But that would mean making a commitment, keeping our word, and having integrity. And since the biggest sin a person can committ in American society is to find themselves being held accountable, most folks would rather do anything than find themselves in a position where they had to really do what they said they were going to do. For my money, If I want to be around people who lead a lifestyle of wiggling out of committments or excusing themselves, I'll get a job teaching grade school and spend my lunch hours montoring recess. At least those kids have a reason to behavior like children.

Best Wishes and good luck.

Bruce

 

[Disco]

But I look at from a little different perspective. Yes there are those who like it as "status quo". I've seen more than my share of them. And yes it will not stop or go away. That's human nature. All the one's I've seen taking this road either drop by the wayside because they are not truely into the arts or they make such a jerk out of themselves that they retreat from the scene. There are exceptions however. There are those that can actually walk the walk, but their ego's have taken control. These to me are the worst kind to deal with and in reality can't be dealt with. All one can do is to try to avoid them at all cost. As for the other's, they actually help, in the longrun, the honest Instructors. The old saying cream rises to the top comes to mind. Once someone gets involved in the arts, they will become educated. They will be able see for themselves that what their being taught is crap and they will move on to search out the real deal. These are the poeple who matter and yes, they are small in number. The other's who are there to just wear a uniform and belt will just wear a uniform and belt. Don't need to waste time on those.

Bruce my friend, you are a dinosaur, much like myself. A throwback to the right way of doing things. Holding Honor, Trust, Integrity, Humanity and Perseverance in high accord. For this I salute you. Perhaps someday we may get the chance to trade recipe's.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn
:asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

..........'til that day......

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Disco,

There is an issue for me. I cannot speak on behalf of everyone; however, my documents are on the other coast, and do not expect to get to them until next month. Then I have the lucky job of figuring out if I have to file in VA, FL or both... my games are just beginning. I am not interested in his money, or even getting my money back. What I am inteterested in doing is stopping him. I definitely intend on going as far as I can with this.

 

[Disco]

Frank, I/we hope that you are successful. People that prey upon other's under the guise of legitimate markings need to be exposed and removed. Your success in this endeavor will also send a message to the organizations that harbor these people, that they are not untouchable either. Don't mean to put the weight of the world on you, but I'm sure you realize that everybody is now put on notice that the game is just starting. I/we realize that this is a lonely/singular battle, but rest assured that you have the moral support and best wishes from myself and other's.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

 

[Disco]

Now the KHF has started to invite and organize Hapkido people in order to gather as a unified organization and promote the orthodoxy Hapkido. In this process, the KHF has decided not to call any masters into question for their past negative activities, if they vowed to never conduct themselves in the same manner again. This decision was made even though it could become a big burden to the KHF. (However, if these individuals continue to act in ways detrimental to the KHF, they will be removed from our ranks.)

This is really a slap in the face to everybody connected to the KHF that has any integrity. To me this is a politicans way of saying, next time you won't catch us....

 

[iron_ox]

Disco,

I just saw that post on the KHF site - they have all but admitted that there is corruption afoot - Should this organization really be taken seriously? I don't think so.

Hapkido, like many other martial arts is structured not only around old tradition, but on the respect and trust of students - how can that be possible if lying is the norm and accepted...

One thing is omitted in the KHF post - or maybe not, but what about the victimes they are acknowledging exist? Too bad for them right, so long as the "masters" keep sending in the money - who cares about them - there are enough suckers born every minute to keep playing the schill game with certs., right?

The KHF continues to dig the hole...deeper and deeper, maybe to tunnel directly from Korea to US - hey money could get there faster that way...

I will no longer recognize any KHF wall paper of any kind - I know who cares about me - but if others follow this simple lead, KHF has to get there act together or they will wither and die on the vine.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Disco]

Well we pushed and prodded to get the KHF to take a stand and they have, right in the middle of the :toilclaw:

As I stated prior, everything now falls on Frank's shoulders. He's the only one (to our knowledge) that can do anything to these people. The rest of us are just preaching to the choir.

As you pointed out, there are more than enough suckers out there for them to move on to. I doubt very seriously that we'll see anybody from the KHF turn their backs and burn their certificate(s) in objection to the KHF position. I mean, look at all the time they have spent training to shoot arrows from horse back :lol:
Not to mention all those that train diligently to be able to throw needles at their attacker. Or was that to be able to sew on their directorship label.

I wonder how many here in the U.S. have received a medical lic. to practice acupuncture? At least that training can make a difference to their students. Put that needle in the right place and they won't even feel their wallet being lifted.:mst:

Final thought. All these years many have managed to train and become part of the arts without the from the KHF. For all those that have managed to struggle along on this path, we issue this salute to the KHF staff - :moon:

 

[iron_ox]

Hey Disco et al,

Here is something I have been thinking about. What if all the participants away from Korea have been duped by the KHF? Suppose everyone was told one story or another in a very simple attempt to keep all the American factions fighting each other?

This in fighting would leave the KHF brass the upper hand to control each faction...and would ensure that the factions would never band together and demand service or quality...

This scenario seems more and more likely with the most recent "we forgive" garbage of the KHF - simply, the in fighting got out of control, so the next strategy is to calm things down and start a new program to milk the money - why else would they appoint two representatives in this country that have so much bad blood between them?

Keep 'um off balance, cause its easier to empty their wallets as they fall over...


Kevin Sogor

ps I have never heard any stories that would suggest that Choi, Yong Sul ever rode a horse, much less shot arrows from one...

 

[Disco]

Kevin, it's doubtful that anyone outside of Korea would be able to get service and quality, regardless of numbers. My personal opinion; if I had a KHF cert, I would be ernestly looking to validate it with another organization and remove myself from any dealings with them. But hey, that's just me. I've been accused before of not being "A Team Player", because I tried to get people to be accountable. Pretty stupid on my part,... huh!.....

They (KHF) has made it very clear that they are part and parcel with what has happened. There's no other way to view their position. Some may try to defend their position because they feel loyality. This is understandable - to a point. To attempt to validate the KHF position in reference to major dishonest and disreputable actions, one would honestly have to believe that the rest of us were deaf, dumb and blind. That unto itself is disrespectful and the person who attempts such a joke is no better than the person that caused all of this in the first place.

To be completely honest, this subject has become exacerbating. Positions have been stated and nothing is going to change. The only thing that can be accomplished is if Frank is able to follow through with legal action.