Hapkido Kwans

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

There is another way to look at it, from what I can read.

To my eyes it seems as though this person has been isolated to his own school and publicly identified as no more than a "master". If I have this right anything associated with him outside of his own school carries no weight with the KHF. No KIHAP. No YUDO. No NHF. According to this the KHF has gone on record as saying there is no "grandmaster" and whatever he decides to do outside of his school management carries no weight with the KHF. I wasn't quite sure how to read that line about his particular kwan. I got the impression that the kwan is recognized as being a kwan but that doesn't mean anything to the KHF (????????). The only reason I point this up is I am not sure what the determination would be if the "school" decided to sponsor an event, and host standing members of the KHF. For instance, if Oh See Lim comes to Florida, could this person host Oh See Lim? Would tests conducted by Oh See Lim be recognized outside of the specific school? Would that mean that students raised in rank by the school owner wouldn't be recognized by the KHF, but KHF members of standing could be called in to promote students in his stead? I don't mean to confuse anyone or make a mountain out of a molehill. An important issue in all of this has been the manner in which standing was awarded in the KHF. I understand the person in question has no power beyond his own school, but what about those who are to come along? What if THEY want standing with the KHF. Everyone know what I'm asking?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Looking at the logo of the KHF - The hand inside the circle with the finger pointing upwards.

Just crossed my mind - it should have been the other finger:shrug: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[whalen]

Bruce, as usual I'm not sure what your questions is, exactly. I've called in three people from the CIA to help me decipher your thoughts... the men in black have just left the dojang... :rofl:

But to get more to the point of what I think your questions are, procedural issues regarding testing, certification, and certain masters are still being ironed out.

What I can tell you is that the KHF will not recognize any Dan rank that is issued by individual kwans -- the kwans must register Dans through the KHF representatives/headquarters. Here's an example: I teach Hapkido Chun Do Kwan. I do not issue Chun Do Kwan Dan ranking. All of my blackbelts are registered KHF Dan holders.

Any graduate of the KHF instuctors/masters program can test their own students for KHF Dan ranking up to a certain level. An instructor cannot test and issue rank to students from another kwan or association

Higher Dan grades will probably be judged by the representative(s) in regional testings (to be determined) or in Seoul itself at the KHF headquarters.

I hope this starts to answer your questions. As we figure things out, I'll try keep you up-to-date.

Hal

 

[glad2bhere]

Sorry, Hal. Maybe I am making it more confused than it is, or maybe its just a difficult subject to tease apart over the Internet. Let me try one more time.

1.) Hackworths' efforts outside of the dochang are not recognized by the KHF. He may only do promotion inside of his own school as none of his promotions are recognized outside of his school. Right so far?

2.) One of Hackworths students want to be promoted to Black belt given that he has made it through all the Guep ranks appropriately.

OK, Pop Quiz, folks. Which of the following is accurate?

a.) Hackworth can go ahead and promote the student to Black Belt but no one in the KHF will recognize it.

b.) Hackworth can have a KHF person come in and test the student according to KHF curriculum and standards then the dan rank will be recognized by the KHF.

c.) The student can approach another organization, present his vitae with a letter from Hackworth and then that rank will be recognized by that organization, but not by the KHF even though Hackworth is still a member and teacher.

d.) all of the above.

If I am understanding the announcement my money is on "D". What cha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

1. The KHF does not recognize any qualification officially of Mr. Richard Hackworth except the next two;
o The KHF Certified 6th Dan Black Belt
o The KHF Certified Master

OK, what were they suppose to recognize outside of their own organization? Their Hapkido and that's what he's ranked in. We see that he is still recognized within their organization as a member 6th Dan Master Instructor. Boy, talk about slapping a hand.

2. The KHF recognizes "Hae Mu Kwan" as a certified Dojang continuously.

And this means what? It's a style - homegrown, that they say OK to. Just another number in their 78 kwans. Continuously........

3. The KHF restricts Master Richard Hackworth's official activities only at his Dojang "Hae Mu Kwan".

So what he does outside of his dojang is fair game?

4. The KHF does not recognize any certificate at any case including Dan certificates which are issued by Master Richard Hackworth privately or in the name of "Hae Mu Kwan".

Nothing new about that. On their web site it states that only KHF schools get KHF certification. They don't accept Kwan certifications. Strange, they accept the kwans as hapkido but have seperate qualifications for their ranking. So going to his Hae Mu Kwan school is just an access vehicle to get a KHF certificate. He has to request it for his students, which only means that the student, (the training is the same), must pay twice. One for HMK and then again for the KHF, if they should want both. As for the "Privately issued" I guess that means the bogus KHF certs that were allegedly sold as real. I wonder if they would recognize them if they received the fee's?

 

[TKDDad]

I have been following this issue on this and other sites for some time. I have a basic question regarding organizations like KHF:

If KHF and other organizations do not maintain any sort of quality control, what use are they? KHF reminds me of the spam emails I receive in droves regarding college degrees (send your money, we send you paper, everybody is happy.) If KHF doesn't monitor how dans are being passed out, I can't see any value in the organization. And unlike purely academic pursuits, there is no way to maintain quality control except through some type of videotaped demonstration method, which I have seen some other organizations pursue.

If the American with the second highest dan level of any non-Korean is not deprived of his certification, assuming a fraction of what has been said about him is true, there appear to be no standards for ethics or ability.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Welcome to our train of thought.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear TKD Dad:

reading your post I think you have a very sound grasp---
of 50% of the problem.

The 50% that you seem to understand is that if people have played fast and loose with quality control so what is the point of their verifying or affirming ranks. Yes--- all well and good. But there is the other 50% to wit: who WILL verify, affirm or otherwise provide quality control?? We DO need it! Now who is going to do it? And who will submitt to it. This is the other half of the problem. We already know who screwed-up, what happened when they did, and that we don't want any more of it. But unless you can channel Mother Theresa, who will have the integrity, honor, character and values to take on the job of underwriting certs such that people can trust that a 3rd dan truely is 3rd dan level, and 4th dan truely is 4th dan level, etc., etc.? This is where things stand right now and I will be damned if I am not having one helluva time getting people to even talk about these issues over on the KHF Net.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TKDDad]

Thanks for the responses to my earlier post. I don't disagree that some system of certification is necessary, just that the systems I have seen beyond the dojang level are not viable. The systems that occur to me that might work would be considerably more expensive and time consuming than the current ones. Standardized, regional, public testing comes to mind, but it would require travel, universally accepted standards and only periodic testing, for instance.

The other comment I wanted to make was related to the current problem with the KHF in the US. Given that the KHF has made its decision, what will those who have been wronged do about it? I don't want to sound like an instigator (well, I guess I'm about to instigate) but I would like to know that those who say they have been cheated pursue some kind of remedy. I think that apart from trying to get some sort of justice, doesn't the HKD community want to stop further misuses of the art for personal gain? Do those who have been cheated realize that the statute of limitations clock is ticking on their claims, and that by doing nothing, they are deciding to allow the fraud to continue? Is anyone doing anything, like pursuing legal action, or will the accusations just continue flying back and forth?

I have not been cheated personally, but it bothers me that martial artists, of all people, would allow themselves to be injured and do nothing.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear TKD Dad: (Is this how you want to be addressed?)

I was going to start with a disclaimer about string drift, but this string seems to have become a kind of ombudsman for all of these inter-related issues so here I go.

"...... I don't disagree that some system of certification is necessary, just that the systems I have seen beyond the dojang level are not viable. The systems that occur to me that might work would be considerably more expensive and time consuming than the current ones. Standardized, regional, public testing comes to mind, but it would require travel, universally accepted standards and only periodic testing, for instance....."

Yes. When competition first came into TKD on a large scale I underestimated the benefit along these lines. From what I heard reported, competition rules became generally uniform so people could make informed decisions about which events they wanted to participate in, given the particular competition. Hey, thats life in competition, right. To me it seemed to naturally follow that testing criteria would naturally follow and that tournaments might well become the testing sites as well. Of course, the problem became one of fees and which way the revenues were going to go (Gee, big surprise!!).

In traditional Korean martial science, education had always been locally administered. "Quality control" such as it was occurred when the student went off to the Big City and wanted to parlay his MA skills into a career, say in security of the military. Then it was a matter of taking the Civil Service exam. No belts or certs. You were either competent and passed or incompetent and failed. For Hapkido I have often had a fantasy of yearly national tests for Dan rank, and semi-annual regional tests for gueps of standing (3, 2, & 1). The trouble comes in when there are variations in style (Kuk Sool vs Sin Mu, say). Also MA teachers have very thin egos and are easily affronted if their students don't do well. And, of course, there is the matter of revenues (as always).

".....The other comment I wanted to make was related to the current problem with the KHF in the US. Given that the KHF has made its decision, what will those who have been wronged do about it? I don't want to sound like an instigator (well, I guess I'm about to instigate) but I would like to know that those who say they have been cheated pursue some kind of remedy...."

The problem with this is that not a few of the people who have been "wronged" had some inkling of what was going on even as it was happening. I think of it as sorta like buying a watch from that guy with the overcoat on a street corner. Even as you are paying $50US for that "jen-u-wine Rolex" you just KNOW something ain't right. And are YOU going to let everybody know that you got burned trying to purchase a cert you had not really earned on the cheap? People can be pretty loud about being individuals of standing until someone comes along and starts talking about where the rank came from and why is a person 30 y/o and a 9th dan. I think its a little like being caught with you hand in the cookie jar. Logically it would seem that these people would want redress, but how many druggies will go to the Better Business Bureau to report a pusher that sold them talc instead of cocaine? Know what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello All,

Just a few random thoughts on this issue - to stir the pot some...

1. The KHF claims that they follow the lineage of Choi, Yong Sul as the founder of Hapkido - but some of their "kwans" were founded before 1945 - funny, Choi did not teach for the first time in Korea until 1948...

2. They recognize "X" number of Kwans of Hapkido (including a judo group??) but won't accept their certs. So, they will only issue their paper on whose recommendation? The kwan head, whose paper they will not accept? This smells of money scam here.

3. When the KHF was just the simple Korea Hapkido Association, the process was so simple, instructor applies for grade, grade is paid for, registered and sent...that was 30 years ago (my instructor got Korean paper this way in the UK) Now, the KHF acts like this is all new to them, well, go figure, they want to add all the money making layers like "instructor classes", blah, blah, blah, for people that will most likely never go to Korea

4. Americans need to realize that YOUR instructor is training you in your school, the paper he gives you is for you as recognition, your technique speaks the real volume - not a bit of paper - who cares if you get paper from Soeul? Unless you live in Korea, train in Korea, why do you want your instructor in Des Moines (lets say) to play second fiddle to a group of "grandmaster" you will never meet, will never meet you, and therefore have NO REAL BEARING on who you in Hapkido.

5. Check the credentials of the KHF brass - I'll give you all a day or so here -

6. The KHF follows the lineage of Choi, right, their site says so, well guess what guys, the Grandmaster put in charge of Hapkido by Choi before his death lives in New York City, not Korea, and get this, he doesn't recognize ANY of the Korean paper mills, KHF, KiDo, World KiDo, none of them...even funnier, the KHF never even mentions him (Grandmaster Chang, ChinIl) on any of their literature...hmmmmm

7. Paper is paper, look, I have seen some real nonsense over the years, but when the real laughs are in order, I harken back to a story of a Korean instructor that moved to the UK and went before the then governing control board, he claimed all kinds of rank, but had no paper, he said it was at home (in London) - but it would take him 10 days to get it - well off he went - back to KOREA - and sure enough, 10 days later returns with a stack of beautiful big certs. - problem was, during the flight, the paper was pressed together in his suitcase, and when he came before the control board to present the stuff, the non-cured ink had trandsferred to the backs of the certs on top...
The control board only wanted a letter from his parent group saying who he was...needless to say he never got the recognition he wanted. MORALE: If you think your group needs credentials, get a letter from a parent group that says that so and so is a qulaified teached and "X" rank, this letter might even change over time as the rank gets higher - that proves who you are and who your instructor is - not a bit of paper flown thousands of miles that makes just a rank claim. Good associations send out letters for FREE! Then, let your instructor give you rank - that is really all that counts...

8. On testing, well, your instructor sees you all the time, again, unless you live in Korea, a group like the KHF will never see you, who matters more here? Even a testing panel can be mislead if a candidate has a terrible day - but your instructor will know - you trust him/her to teach you, trust him/her to rank you.

9. Instructors, especially here in the US, if you are stuck in a rut, or are now independent and still looking for advancement, try training for it, there are lots of good US groups that will provide what you need - THE TRAINING - rather than pawning you off some bit of over priced wall paper...

Well, I feel better...

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Bruce,

I haven't fallen silent here, I saw your post on the KHF rag sheet, just kind of sitting back and listening and gathering more info. The more stuff I get on the KHF, the more I feel sorry for those that remain involved - look, the Titanic was beautiful in her day, but when she hit ice, all her weakness was exposed, and no amount of bailing could save her - welcome aboard the K.S.S. KHF...

Kevin

ps I am going to drop a little line for you on the rag sheet - they want you to shut up and train huh? Well, maybe its time to return for a play...

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This has also been on my mind, the KHF takes great pains to tell everyone that they are "recognized by the Korean Govt."

WELL, golly gee, that's really sayin' sumthin, huh? The Korean Government is a paradigm for integrity and honesty, and all martial orgainzations that it recognizes are run by honest men - oops, well except the biggest, the Kukkiwon...

By the way, "recognized" means "pays taxes to" in most cases - like Hyundai is a recognized car maker - the Koreans would make you believe that Korean govt. recognition is a big deal and that only certain Super Dooper Grandmasters can set this up - well, Seo, In Sun set up a Hapkido Organization with Korean Government recognition after the split with the Korea Kido Hae - he is a third dan in Hapkido.

Your certificates are only worth two things: The time and effort you expend to train, and the instructor who writes them.

Unless the Koreans suddenly take over the US, Korean Govt. recognition of a Hapkido Cert. don't amount to squat.

Kevin

 

[Disco]

This travesty has been on going for years. The resent :btg: only brings it back to the surface for all to see. The term "cash cow" has been used in reference to Americans. When a piece of paper costs $1000 or more, there is nothing else you can call it. Plus the fact that there seems to be a seperate fee schedule for the U.S. This is based on other's who have posted on the KHF site and referenced such.

I feel iron ox has hit the nail on the head - "money scam". Just review the KHF web site for all their extras. The upper dan ranking requirements also leave something for the imagination.

I find it perplexing to say the least, that they have a list of 78/79 kwans/styles that the openly say we honor/respect, but they will not accept any ranking verification from them. For the life of me, how can any rational person subscribe to this B.S. Yeah OK, the pet rock does come to mind.......But that was only a dollar and it did serve a purpose - paper weight. :rofl:

Bottom line on all this from my perspective, based on what has been posted by all parties, is that the fraud aspect goes far beyond what has happen recently. Common sense and lack of authoritative action only reinforces this conclusion.

For all the respected and conscientious KHF folks directly or indirectly affected by all this. Your skills are yours, nothing can detract from that. But we are not discussing physical skill here, we are putting honor, respect, trust and integrity under the microscope. Just some of the tennents of your art and all martial arts in general. As it looks right now, the patient seems to have a malignancy and only the "House Doctor" - can remove it and make the patient healthy again. There's a saying in society, "You are judged by the company you keep".

 

[TKDDad]

Bruce:

The complicity of those cheated was something I suspected. That's usually the case with confidence games. I did feel that I needed to mention that time was working against those who complained the loudest about being cheated.

With what has happened in KMA (ie. WTF, Kukkiwon, USTU, and KHF), I think that everybody just needs to exercise some caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that where there is no legal requirement to be certified, those organizations would give themselves so many self-inflicted wounds. Reputation is everything.

Mike

 

[Disco]

THE KHF EXECUTIVE MEMBERS
Writer : The KHF ([email protected])


1. Senior Committee

Lee, Tae Jun
Kang, Jung Su
Song, Young Gi
Kim, Jong Taek
Kim, Jong Yun
Kim, Duk In
Jin, Jong Mun
Yun, Myung Oh
Jung, An Se
Yu, Sang Ho
Park, Hyun Su

2. Special Committee

Lee, Dong Woo
Kim, Nam Je
Kim, Hyung Sang
Seo, Myung Il
Lee, Chang Soo
Noh, Su Gil
Kwon, Yung Jin
Han, Kyu Il
Chae, In Gil

3. The Directors of the KHF Branches


Pusan ....... Kim, Kyung Hwan
Taegu ....... Lee, Ju Hyun
Daejun....... Jin, Sung Woo
Kwangju ......... Kang, Hyung Bok
Inchoen ......... Kang, Young Kil
Ulsan ......... Lee, Sang Bok
Kyungki(N)...... Jun, Won Il
Kyungki(E)...... Song, Sung Young
Kyungki(S)...... Lee, Kun Hwa
Kyungki(W)..... Yu, Yun Wang
Chungbuk ...... Lee, Jin Ho
Chungnam...... Kim, Chun Yong
Junbuk....... Jung, Bong Ok
Junnam...... Kim, Si Yul
Kungnam..... Shin, Jae Hwan
Kangwon..... Jung, Ik Chul
Cheju...... Kim, Nam Kyu
Gumi...... Park, Myung Bok
Chungnam(S)...... Kim, Jin Woo
Chunnam(E)...... Kim, hung Su

Paris.............. Lee, Kwan Yung
London.......... Sam Plumb
Durham........ Kim, Bum
Boston......... Harrold Whalen
Frankfurut........ Choi, Gil Bong
Kuala Lumpur........ Julian Lim
Singapore......... Anthony Low
Buenos Aires....... Jose Antonio Lagier
Bogota........... William Rayo Rocero
Ecuador....... Gabriel Zarate
Orlando ...... Richard Hackworth (????)

4. Advisory Committee

Lee, Yung Sik
Lee, Jae Gun
Kim, Sang Moo
Lim, Jong Yun
An, Sung Yong
Jin, Bok Mun
Baek, Du Hyun
Lim, Myung Sup
Jung, Sun Sung
Kim, Byung Soo
Kim, Won Hong
Huh, Tae Whan
Jun, Jae Hwan
Kim, Ke Jong
Jung, Yung Chul
Huh, Nam Han
Kim, Yung Jong
Jun, Chong Sung

Han, Bong Soo (USA)
Kim, Yung Hwan (USA)
Choi, Se Ho (USA)
Kwon, Tae Man (USA)
Kim, Myung Yong (USA)
Kim, Jong Sung (USA)
Son, Tae Soo (USA)
Kim, Jin Pal (USA)
Holcombe Thomas (USA)
Lee, Sung Soo (Australia)
Shin, Yang Gi (Argentina)
Kim, Yong Chul (Canda)
Hwang, In Sik (Canada)
Kim, Woo Tak ( Canada)
Park, Hyun Soo (Canada)
Park, Hee Soo (Canada)
Shin, Hyun Sung (Spain)
Park, Kyubg Won (Spain)
Yun, Man Soo (Chile)

Kind of tells everybody how the cash register works.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Hackworthless is a new addition. At this point, I want nothing else to do with Hapkido, or the Korean "govorning body". I wonder how many people I would have to cheat to become a grandmaster?

 

[Disco]

Frank, just looked at the same list over at Budoseek and Mr. H's name is not on that list. Perhaps this is someone's idea of a joke by posting it that way on the KHF site.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Not unless they hacked it. It was just added today. It was snuck on, and it is in the area for KHF use only, ie if not hacked the webmaster added it.

 

[iron_ox]

Frank,

No disrespect here, but why are you done with Hapkido? The KHF crapped on you, not Hapkido in general...You were told, and falsely lead to believe that the KHF was the "governing body" for Hapkido - well at last count in Korea, at least 4 organizations are there with the same govt. standing, including the Kido Hae which predates all of them...

I am somewhay confused at some of the attitudes of American KHF members, first, there is outrage over the fake certificates, then, no one is punished, then Hal Whalen is named as Boston Rep. and everyone says "Yeh!" - but the same "guilty" parties are still in good standing with KHF - so they are all still in the mix - now, as expected, the KHF back peddles again and names a Florida Rep. and people are really upset...

Hal Whalen may be a good guy in this, but he is the Rep. of a lousy organization - too bad really.

Frank, maybe instead of saying you are done with Hapkido, just say you are done with the KHF, once and for all, get others to follow your lead, and this mess in the US will be put to rest.

For what its worth Frank, I invite you to train with me in Chicago whenever you are here, and I promise, I will not sell or even give you fancy wall paper, we will do what is the best part of Hapkido, TRAIN!

I could really care less if the KHF survives or not, but in its current state, it should not be allowed to do business in the US...

Kevin