Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.
For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.
At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.
The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.
EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.
You claim 10th dan in kung fu. First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings... But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?
If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step. If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step. Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names... Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required. When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher! It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...
I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.
There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here. Legitimate and authentic are two different things. I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension. I could even produce a stamp (
hanko, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic. But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate. Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.
How could you prove documents to be legitimate? The same way you would check into things as I listed above. The same people would be called or contacted. If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document. If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate... This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.
I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.
See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers... If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we
must ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large. In older times, such things were common but culturally linked. We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc. We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom. We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others. In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time. Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.
If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...
I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.
If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim. If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem. Some folks don't like organizations. Fine.
As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response. An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style. Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague. They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades. Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed. Fine. But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap. Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public...
My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.
In a perfect world, that should be enough. It is for me, as well. The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles. I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation. However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
