Claims on the Internet.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan. It's not so simple...

Heck no……..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.

The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Don Roley
I have to admit to being a little confused by the attitude you state above, and this quote I found on your web site,



So, you state the groups you beloing to as some sort of qualifier on your web site, but here you seem to be saying that none of that matters???

This is not to mention that at least one of the orginizations listed on your web site do not exist anymore- which shows that they themselves are hardly very reliable sources for the "extensive critique and peer review" you claim.

I am also rather mystified by this quote,



As I said, I looked at your web site and found references to the fact that you are an eight dan. Anyone who wishes to can check your web site for themselves and see if it is still there. Check here to see. But as I post, your web site's section on the orginization you created makes this mention of your eighth dan.



And yet in the quote above you claim that you do not talk about it and do not even list it on your web site. Can you imagine how confused I am by how I can see you say you do not list your ranks or "wall candy", only to find out that is not the case with my own eyes????

Don,

Call me a skeptical S.O.B. but I question a lot of stuff I read on the Internet……..even people’s names. In fact I think we had one such problem here before.
About the only thing or people I can actually verify they are who they say from this BBs is Yiliquan1 and you since I have met both of you. BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting?

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting?

Whenever my beloved dictator Tony says it is, I will try to be there. Barring, of course, the wrath of "The mountain god." (Yama no Kami no ikari. ) If that reference is beyond you, ask an older Japanese.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...


I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.

I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Heck no……..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.

The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus.

Let me clarify... The REAL organization, the standard.

If someone walks in to Kukkiwon, asking for dan rank, everyone will die of laughter.

 

[SteelShadow]

What is the point of disscuions like this?I can understand disaproving with someone or being sceptical about them.Heck i can even understand down right disagreeing with someone.
But what is the point to going over and over it.I mean in reality yes you get to exspress your oppion and yes you might even exspose someone or at least make them look bad.But if they have thier heart set on teaching or claiming something this board or any other isnt going to cahnge that.
If you disagree thats fine state you do and move on Why dwell on it for post or thread after thread.Not only does it get old it after awhile your once substantiated oppion just beggins to look like a grudge or someone just trying to degrade another person.There are those that simply enjoy degrading or trying to make others look bad.And there are those that realy are just passionate about what they know or believe.But theres a fine line between the two that if not approached carefully cant be seen wich side a person stands on.Of course exspress you ditrust or disagreement with someone thats what these boards are for but dont let it draw you to the point where you beggin to look arogant or self appealing by discrediting everything someone says on the net.
Ther is such a thing as being to susppcious.
If you have questions by all means ask.That is your right but understand it is also the person being questioneds right to not answer.Does that make it right maybe not but just because someone is asked dosnt mean they have to answer.
I guess all im saying is other than enjoyment of persecution or just wanting to make yourself look like some all knowing scholar.
What point is there to dragging something along after you have posted your oppion or your disaprovment.If they didnt answer them in a satisfying way the first time chances are they arnt going to.Because after the initial posts you automaticaly start looking for other things to disagree with its human nature if you dont like something or disagree with something you automaticaly look for flaws .Post your oppion wether good or bad ask the questions you need to ask but it is pointless to borrow a phrase from another thread to beat a dead horse.And the jokey that does only comes off looking like a Brute.....
Just my thoughts.......

 

[arnisador]

Thanks to all those who have endeavoured to keep this discussion general rather than about specific individuals. Everyone, please keep to that in this thread and take individual matters to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...


I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.

I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.

You have quoted Chufeng from a thread which involved your teacher that has been closed if I am not mistaken. As has been said several times this thread is not on anyone specific but a GENERAL perspective.
So far most have caught on to that concept.

 

[chufeng]

Actually, it was on page three of this thread...
After rereading DAC's post (the one that I responded to, initially) I may have misunderstood his intent...
I thought he was going for another personal attack...but now that he's responded, I can see where he was headed with it.

My intent was to head off another rehash of the ZDW story...that truly is a dead horse...

Most of the comments made, so far, have been general in nature.
The few comments that are specific have at least not spun out of control...

I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Actually, it was on page three of this thread...

Thanks for the correction.
To be honest I have read so much of “that” topic over the last couple of weeks I can’t remember which thread is which anymore.

Originally posted by chufeng

I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."

:asian:
chufeng

I agree.

 

[Touch Of Death]

:soapbox: Mr Tanaka,
I believe the word is piqued.

 

[DAC..florida]

I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.


EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.

I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.

I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.


My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.

For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.

At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.

The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.

EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.

You claim 10th dan in kung fu. First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings... But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?

If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step. If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step. Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names... Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required. When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher! It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...

I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.

There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here. Legitimate and authentic are two different things. I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension. I could even produce a stamp (hanko, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic. But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate. Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.

How could you prove documents to be legitimate? The same way you would check into things as I listed above. The same people would be called or contacted. If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document. If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate... This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.

I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers... If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we must ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large. In older times, such things were common but culturally linked. We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc. We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom. We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others. In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time. Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.

If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.

If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim. If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem. Some folks don't like organizations. Fine.

As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response. An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style. Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague. They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades. Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed. Fine. But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap. Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public...

My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.

In a perfect world, that should be enough. It is for me, as well. The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles. I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation. However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

As I said before, if you do not wish to have your teacher bothered, you should not put him in a position where he could be bothered by claiming a rank or association. Once you do, the matter of proof comes up and you either back up your claims, or you refuse and everyone starts to laugh at you.

You solve the entire matter by truely trying to stand on your own abilities, rather than claiming rank or something and when asked for proof start making excuses as to why you do not have to because "only ability matters." Well, if that is so, why bother mentioning anything like rank, associations, years in training, etc in the first place? This type of behavior does give other people the chance to laugh at the people making excuses, but it really is kind of pitiful to see.

Again, if you do not want to go to the trouble of having to prove something, don't put yourself in a postion where you will be asked for proof by making claims. You may note that some people never mention their rank, who they trained under, or how long they have trained. They either do not want to try to impress others, or feel that their words alone carry the wisdom that others can see instead of relying on "wall candy" for the same effect.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
....I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet....

If you belong to some bogus organizations that your drinking buddies made up, then it is all a farce.

If you belong to recognized organizations such as Kukkiwon or JKA or ITF, for examples, then post your certificate number, and someone can call the HQ where the HQ staffs can verify if you are what you claim to be.

I am surprised that your 8th dan master does not know this. Such a high degree is normally awarded to people who are elderstatesmen of the art. There are millions of whitebelt nobodies who are well aware of this minor detail. You would think that someone with an 8th dan would have KNOWN this tiny bit of administrative detail.

 

[A.R.K.]

Well I found a brief opportunity to pop in on my day off.

I would simply say this, I no longer teach a specific style/system originating from somewhere else. Haven't for quite some time as I have focused my energy on developing my system based on my total knowlegde, experience and real world altercations.

I have listed the associations that I fellowship with, anyone may feel free to contact the organization head in regards to their opinion of me. Anyone is welcome to contact FDLE or my agency in regards to my status, reputation, knowledge, ability etc. There is no óne'report number as I have been involved in numerous altecations. No becuase I look for trouble, quite the opposite actually...I don't like to fight. But for 12 years I have worked in the very worse places in our maximum security facility...as have many others. sometimes things happen beyond our control. But all are public record for any who would like to know specific details. I would prefer to be known fo the times where I was able to avoid using force.

Many seem satisfied with my credential, background and the way in general I post. Anyone needing further confirmation may contact any that they wish. If they are satisfied at this point then wonderful. If not, they may consider me as they wish. No one can satisfy everyone all the time. Either way, the only real thinng is whether or not I'm qualified to teach. Only personal knoweldge or firsthand conversation with my students will ultimately answer that. Most know that I, for the most part, teach for free. And my assistants do teach out of desire rather than for $ compensation. We have survived many realworld altercations as have our students based on what we've taught them. To me that is the real test. That is my humble opinion. As Chufeng mentioned earlier...at some point trust needs to enter in. Either I have earned it or I have not base on who is asked.

I take Robert at his word as I believe his word is solid. Sice this issue was originally between us, it should rest with us. Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have. That way we can all post on other topics and perhaps benefit from each other's words.

In my opinion...everyone here has offered much. And I look forward to that continuing unhindered.

Peace to us all
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

This is not between YOU and RyuShiKan. This is between all of us and PEOPLE who make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

Please do not bring up your credential and organizations you belong to or don't belong to. Most of us are tired of beating on the dead horse and dancing in circle. No, we are not satisfied with your answers nor explainations. We just DON"T GIVE A RAT *** anymore. We have a rather clear idea already. And many of us have already spelled it out, loud and clear. If you want to move on, then please don't bring up the cow chips again and again trying to make a banquet out of them. Since you have repeatedly claim that you don't care what people think of your qualification and that you can never convince people who don't think much of you, then would you please heed your own words and stop trying? May be then, we can all move on.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have.

Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you don’t care what others think.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you don’t care what others think.

most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names

Maybe we need to issue a set of playing cards like they have for the ex-Iraqi leaders.