Claims on the Internet.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization?

Several reasons I think.

First, they can fool the uninitiated rather easily with this.
Second, like all conmen and crooks, they think they will never get caught, or nobody is looking.
Third, their ego NEEDS it. They have such a lack of confidence in their skills they promote themselves or their pals promote them through one of the mutual dan societies out there.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today,



Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that person’s hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you won’t be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinko’s just won’t cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have……..and more than likely have met them at some point in time…….say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.





It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.


Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.

Agreed.

Kukkiwon uses a similar system. Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database. I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate.

What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill. And like the dollar bills in the US ($5 and over), there are special markings that when help up in the light, you can see.

Counterfeiting a certificate is almost as hard as counterfeiting a $100 bill... And expecting to pass tests at a world bank.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.

True.
Logic would dictate that they have a connection to Oyama or now that he is gone a legit part of his Org..

However, since there are few REAL 8th dans in traditional systems based in Okinawa/Japan and most of them are fairly well know it would be easy to verify such claims.
If someone claims “I have (insert bloated dan rank) from Billy Bob’s Bar Room Ryu.” It doesn’t bother me since it is a “new” system and they can claim any dan rank they want.
When people make claims to extremely high rank in traditional styles based in Okinawa/Japan then I get suspicious.


Making false claims to high ranks in Okinawa/Japan is not only uneducated but also childish and shows a lack of understanding what REAL martial arts are about.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Agreed.

Kukkiwon uses a similar system. Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database. I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate. What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill.

My teacher’s association uses something similar to this as well, plus having your photo on the certificate……..so unless someone goes to get some cosmetic surgery they won’t be able to fake the certificates. In my teacher’s association dan and kyu certificates differ in style, paper, and writing, that way dishonest people can’t bump themselves up if they leave the association.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.

--Dave

:asian:

"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Try looking at places other than the mall

I was "HEARING YA" until I read that!

Care to enlighten us on Military TKD? It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall.

 

[A.R.K.]

ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today

There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.

Whatever you would like to believe is fine. I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one. Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...

It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.

And your evidence for this concernig someone here would be...??? O'wait...I forgot this was suppose to be a dead issue Seems like you still are quite concerned with it though :shrug: Ability over paper ANYDAY. Seems those who disagree don't have much realworld ability but lots of lineage. Lineage won't help you in a dark parking lot...realworld experience will.

Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough. You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree. I think 'rank' is merely what others above you think of your training, nothing more or less. Since there is NO standardization or universally accepted SOP's then rank is subjective and relative. The ONLY thing that matters IS ability. Either personally or also as an instructor.

You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa. Fine Robert...FINE. It doesn't matter. The only one going on and on and on and on about my 'rank' is you. I've mentioned it a couple of times in passing...you've droned on about it for months in your little soap box sessions. If Grandmasters in America or the Middle East or Timbukto recognize me as whatever...who cares? What does it affect in the world of martial arts? Is it taking food out of your mouth Robert? Is it causing you many a sleepless night? Give me a break :shrug: A thread closes and you start another one up so you can climb up on your soap box and whine again and again and again. Give it a rest man

You wanna get down to brass tacs...you whine about lineage and wall candy and crediblility and down play the realworld ability. Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Let me repeat that again in case you missed it the first time...Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Lineage is fine, wall candy is fine, perfect kata is fine, drills are fine, oriental organizations are fine...but unless you've used it in combat to protect yourself or another....its only a hobby. That includes instructors who have never actually been in harms way. Oh, yeah they can teach...from others experiences...but not their OWN experiences.

I have a partner that I cross-train with. He has NO official ranking other than a brown belt from 20 years ago in a system he has never used outside the dojo. But he has training in catch wrestling, boxing, ju jitsu etc with no rank earned and has used that training on more violent felons that even I have. I would rather recieve training from him that any 5th Dan from Japan who has no experience outside the dojo.

I could see you having a complaint if every other post from me was 'oh I'm so great cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'Everyone bow to me cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'oh, it's been 5 minutes...did I mention I'm an 8th Dan' or if I had a string of mcdojos and no experienc and I was scamming people and laughing all the way to the bank. but your the only one going on about it. Hardly ANYONE here would even know my ranks if you weren't whining about them. I don't have it in my profile...I don't have it on my website....I keep all my wall candy in a box in my closet...

What I have posted is that I do have real world experience...ALOT OF IT. Against real BADGUYS. Associates can and have verified that. I can provide you with all the proof from my agency should you care to call them and ask. It's public record and I DO have a good reputation here as the guy to call when it all breaks loose. Nope...not superman...but somethings I do well!

So Robert, I don't care about my wall candy...nobody else here cares about my wall candy...why are you so obsessed with it? I've said it before, I cannot offer you evidence of it's credibilty that you will accept. So I've stated publically to forget about it...it doesn't exist....think of me as a white belt....think of me as a no belt....hell, don't think of me at all. Your whinning doesn't matter and doesn't change a thing. I can still teach and will do so by the grace of God. My students have used my training in real world situations numerous times AND THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD COUNT! My students aren't concerned with kata competition, they are concerned with taking down the violent felon and getting him cuffed and going home...period.

So I'm not a traditionalist [and neither are you btw], I've never claimed to be one....and I wouldn't want to be one. How many more threads are you going start? How many more snide remarks? How many more unsubstantiated allegations? How much more whining? Or can you actually be true to your word and BE DONE WITH IT?

Everyone that I have provided verification to has been satisfied. Nobody cares what 'rank' I am, only that I am a good teacher.

ENOUGH

 

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.

To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

:rofl: just as I thought.....

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Whatever you would like to believe is fine. I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one. Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...

Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Akja,

That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.

To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.

:asian:

I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest. :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.


Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough.

You and DAC have stated several times that I am an “idiot” which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me……..however I can’t recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree

You have twisted my meaning.
I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.


As for the rest of your diatribe it is the same old song played over from other posts you have made to which I have already commented on.

Also, I don’t remember anyone pointing to you or your claims specifically in this post…………why do you feel this topic is about you.

I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.

 

[A.R.K.]

You and DAC have stated several times that I am an “idiot” which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me……..however I can’t recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.

Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer. Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian:

I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.

I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa. If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them. I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations. And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case. I have earned through hard work what I have attained. I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever! Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication. If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.

I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.

Alright...fine. Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.

You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other. We might find that we have much in common. We might find we can learn from one anther. We might even find a friendship.

I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.

With respect :asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:

Covering all ranges means that you should be pretty rounded in all ranges of fighting... That does not mean you have to be the best submission fighter, that defeats the whole purpose, because if you just use submissions, then you aren't well rounded.

Your teaching methods are unique, since they are your's. Mine are also unique. My instructors in the past had a unique teaching style was unique. It differs for most people.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I was "HEARING YA" until I read that!

Care to enlighten us on Military TKD? It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall.

Military TKD is similiar to hapkido, some boxing, wrestling and jujitsu takedowns and submissions, and many fast kicks and power kicks that are found in muay thai and sport TKD. Only that high kicks are only practiced for indirect means.

Military TKD isn't for people in the military, just a name for its militant nature. Most of the training I went to was full-contact sparring. The conditioning aspect of it is comparable to that of the British SAS, and 1-2 hours out of the 4 hours training (takes some dedication as you might imagine) were conditioning. Depends on the day, as it's impossible to go 4 hours everyday. But there was a lot of character building, especially the mental part.

And yes, most of the TKD is one that is most common in the mall. I don't deny it, and I don't look the other way. It's nearly impossible to find a school that is not watereddown or sport-oriented in the US. If the local wrestling club (which preps middle schoolers for high school wrestling) gets sued because a kid sprained his ankle, what do you expect out of any MA school where the people are punched in the face?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
:rofl: just as I thought.....






Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too.

Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan. It's not so simple...

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest. :asian:

OMG, have you seen any of them? They are badasses because they can break plywood boards! Plus, did you know they memorized 20 forms? Did you know they can yell real "kiyaahhh" real loud too? I wouldn't want to tangle with them, even if it was a friendly exhibition sparring match. They're too deadly. I would advise you to do the same.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer. Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian:



I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa. If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them. I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations. And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case. I have earned through hard work what I have attained. I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever! Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication. If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.



Alright...fine. Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.

You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other. We might find that we have much in common. We might find we can learn from one anther. We might even find a friendship.

I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.

With respect :asian:

And what organizations are those?

I don't know about you, but the sound of a Japanese art from a Middle Eastern organization (meaning there are no ties at all) then I'd be suspicious. I'd be suspicious of an organization based in Argentina gave belts for krav maga. Or a Japanese art in the United States. Kempo is American, and although it is based on Japanese arts, it is still American. And the founder of Kempo did have Japanese ties that check out.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa.

Actually, if I understand all the screaming that has gone on so far, the problem seems to be that someone made a claim of being ranked in a system/orginizaion that is based in Okinawa. When that orginization was called, it turned out that the Okinawan orginization never heard of the person and the circumstances of him getting the rank were not possible.

The natural conclusion that can be made from this is that the person making the claim is a fraud. Which kind of puts any other claim that this person makes in doubt. For example, if this person starts saying that he has had real combat experience, I do not see why anyone should believe them. For all we know, he could be the a truely incompetent fraud and has surrounded himself with students that are even more dense than he. In fact, I do not see why anyone with any level of competence would have reason to lie about his personal ranking. As such, it is more likely that he is an incompetent fraud than had he never made the claims in the first place.

If the person had not made a claim that turned out to be an utter fabrication, then no one would probably be thinking of this person as being an incompetent fraud and Virtual Tough Guy. As it is, he made the claim, it turned out to be false and now everything this guy says is now suspect.

And I happen to agree that ability trumps paper every time. But the fact is, he did make a claim to a certain rank- which is paper. And the burdon of proof lies on those that make claims, not anyone else.
:duel:

 

[Kirk]

The wind must've blown, causing the horse to twitch.

 

[Jill666]

Kirk, you are beautiful. :boing2: