Supporting your point of view or claim

[Matt Stone]

I think that, in the court of public opinion, the inability of a person to present their arguments, represent their alleged mastery of an art, or to provide evidence (e.g. continued reluctance to reply or respond, continued evasive responses to questions, etc.) goes a long way toward forging an image of a person as well as qualifying their background.

I have said on this board in the past that my personal feeling is that lineage means nothing. A person with great lineage, but piss poor study habits and practice is only a halfass student with great background. A person with crappy lineage can still overcome the burden of their lineage by proving their own inherent worth and understanding. But the people who rely on their reputations, curricula vitae and having interacted with allegedly important persons in the MA community are only trying to hide behind something to mask their own shortcomings elsewhere.

I have what lineage I have. I don't publicize it because it doesn't mean anything. I have trained with who I have trained with, but I don't offer that in place of my own skill and knowledge. I have what skill and knowledge I have, but while it is better than some, it is worse than most. I offer only myself, and I make no arguments that I am better than what I am because of who I know or where I've been. Question everything I say, and if you fine out I was wrong, please correct me. When I think I know it all, I will have lost the fight entirely. I know some things, but have a long way to go before I know enough things.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I think that, in the court of public opinion, the inability of a person to present their arguments, represent their alleged mastery of an art, or to provide evidence (e.g. continued reluctance to reply or respond, continued evasive responses to questions, etc.) goes a long way toward forging an image of a person as well as qualifying their background.

I have said on this board in the past that my personal feeling is that lineage means nothing. A person with great lineage, but piss poor study habits and practice is only a halfass student with great background. A person with crappy lineage can still overcome the burden of their lineage by proving their own inherent worth and understanding. But the people who rely on their reputations, curricula vitae and having interacted with allegedly important persons in the MA community are only trying to hide behind something to mask their own shortcomings elsewhere.

I have what lineage I have. I don't publicize it because it doesn't mean anything. I have trained with who I have trained with, but I don't offer that in place of my own skill and knowledge. I have what skill and knowledge I have, but while it is better than some, it is worse than most. I offer only myself, and I make no arguments that I am better than what I am because of who I know or where I've been. Question everything I say, and if you fine out I was wrong, please correct me. When I think I know it all, I will have lost the fight entirely. I know some things, but have a long way to go before I know enough things.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

I am sure there are MANY examples in the MA community who would fit that bill!

Are you sure you come from JKD?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Are you sure you come from JKD?

Do you mean "are you sure (I) don't come from JKD?

I'm not too clear on what you meant...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Do you mean "are you sure (I) don't come from JKD?

I'm not too clear on what you meant...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Your right.

And your second half of you statement sounded like a JKD analagy.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
There seems to be a common problem on this and other boards.
The problem is when someone posts something and then is asked to clarify or support their statement, and or claim, they rarely do.
Instead they demand that the “asker” supply proof of some sort that it is not what the claimer says it is.

This is like me saying I have $100,000 dollars in my pocket, you ask me to prove it and I respond by asking you to prove I don’t have $100,000 dollars in my pocket.
Ridiculous isn’t it………..

Is there anything that can be done about these people that refuse to support their claims?

You've asked for a response from the mods./admins.

What you describe, first of all, is very widespread on the Internet. It's a common theme on newsgroups, for example. To a certain extent one must accept it as part of the Internet culture, for better or worse.

I also ask you to imagaine someone making a valid claim who is unable to 'post' proof. This certainly happens--proof exists but not in an electronic form.

But of course it is easy to post absurd claims on the Internet. (Hence the sarcastic joke, "It must be true--I read it on the Internet!") MartialTalk has no special solution for this Internet-wide problem. However, if you let me know the bank account number for that $100,000 I can make both of us a quick profit by helping someone wire millions of dollars out of Nigeria. This will keep us in herbal Viagra for years.

Other boards handle this matter differently than we do. MartialTalk is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. Unfriendly discussion is well handled by rec.martial-arts. Academic discussion is well handled by E-Budo (for the Japanese arts). They have done wewll rooting out frauds. We can't replace them and we're not trying to do so. We are here to be a relaxed, friendly place to discuss the arts.

You're welcome to question claims. You're welcome to express disbelief in claims. You're welcome to ask for proof. What we don't want is badgering, flame wars, and so on. If someone can't or won't post proof, that's fine. You can use the "ignore" option to ignore them. We don't want one member judging another member's credentials and judging them to be fit or unfit to post on MartialTalk. In the event that such a decision needs to be made, it will be made by Kaith, Cthulhu, and me.

To be clear: We'd rather let 10 twenty-five-year-old grandmasters post claims that they can knock out bulls with their psychic energy across state lines than drive away one legitimate poster due to a witch-hunt.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Your right.

And your second half of you statement sounded like a JKD analagy.

Take my analogy a little further. Someone could have studied JKD under Brucie Boy the entire time BL was teaching. If the person failed to practice, had a poor memory, thought they knew better, whatever, then whether the person studied with BL or not means nothing. They still suck.

Likewise, you can get someone who has trained with all sorts of different famous MA people, but it ultimately means not one single thing. My teacher is relatively unknown. Our style, schools, and senior students for the most part practice in relative anonymity. Our lineage is traceable over 13 - 18 generations (depending on how you count them) right back to Shaolin. Whoopee. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

I have studied Yiliquan directly from the founder of the style and the #2 seniormost student of his. I have studied RyuTe (for a very short time) under one of Taika Oyata's personal students. I studied Shuri-te Ha Karate-do under the direct guidance of the inherited master of the school who claims a lineage that (I think) goes all the way straight back to the Shuri/Naha/Tomari-te days. All of that matters not.

I am who and what I am. That's all. That's all anybody is. Your resume can be eleven different kinds of impressive, but it is nothing but paper and it doesn't mean a thing to me at all...

I guess that is why I am so "in your face" when I ask questions of people. I don't give respect because it is "proper," I only give it when it is earned. Everybody gets Equal Opportunity with me - Equal Opportunity to fail and to be proven an idiot. If they pass, great. If not...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Well seeing as it's Rikki Tikki Tavi........Rickky asked a question…………… roodypoo ………….. Rickishikitikki or whatever your darn name

What's with all the insulting names?

Have I insulted you in some way?

My user ID is pretty simple to type.

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hey GouRonin,
I'll take your appology in good faith and accept it.
RyuShinKan is a serious martial artist with a very good sense of humour. If you appeal to that instead of comming across like so many others on the net do [wiseguys], I'm sure you'd see a different side to him.

Of course you may not be bothered, but, as MT is said to be the home of 'friendly' folk, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to get along with everyone?

I like the fact you have the character to say your sorry if you feel you did something wrong. Such an action says more about a person than any claim they might make regarding their status etc.

Right now there's enough s**t going on in the world for all of us, here on MT, we should try a little harder just now to live by the things we teach.

Mike

 

[Mike Clarke]

You nailed it Matt.

Mike.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
John Candy, Rick Moranis, Michael J. Fox, Jim Carey, Mike Myers,
Dan Aykroyd, Tommy Chong, Norm MacDonald, Martin Short,
Rich Little, Phil Hartman ...ummmmm ... okay I'm done.

I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

Okay, but if they call it "The United States Of Canada" or
something gay like that, I'm moving!

 

[arnisador]

Mexico is considering changing its name from the United States of Mexico (look it up--that's what it is) to simply Mexico so as to not appear as similar to the USA.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Take my analogy a little further. Someone could have studied JKD under Brucie Boy the entire time BL was teaching. If the person failed to practice, had a poor memory, thought they knew better, whatever, then whether the person studied with BL or not means nothing. They still suck.

Likewise, you can get someone who has trained with all sorts of different famous MA people, but it ultimately means not one single thing. My teacher is relatively unknown. Our style, schools, and senior students for the most part practice in relative anonymity. Our lineage is traceable over 13 - 18 generations (depending on how you count them) right back to Shaolin. Whoopee. Doesn't mean a damn thing.

I have studied Yiliquan directly from the founder of the style and the #2 seniormost student of his. I have studied RyuTe (for a very short time) under one of Taika Oyata's personal students. I studied Shuri-te Ha Karate-do under the direct guidance of the inherited master of the school who claims a lineage that (I think) goes all the way straight back to the Shuri/Naha/Tomari-te days. All of that matters not.

I am who and what I am. That's all. That's all anybody is. Your resume can be eleven different kinds of impressive, but it is nothing but paper and it doesn't mean a thing to me at all...

I guess that is why I am so "in your face" when I ask questions of people. I don't give respect because it is "proper," I only give it when it is earned. Everybody gets Equal Opportunity with me - Equal Opportunity to fail and to be proven an idiot. If they pass, great. If not...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Is there a hidden theme in there?

 

[Matt Stone]

What do you mean by "hidden theme?"

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I seem to remember a movie about how Canada is plotting to take over the US and John Candy and Dan Akroyd are in it.
Maybe that movie has some truth to it……….they are taking over Hollywood first!

I'm a big fan of the South Park movie, myself.
Blame Canada, Blame Canada, come on sing along....

--Dave

:rofl:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What do you mean by "hidden theme?"

Were you taking a poke at me for seeking association and guidance from several "known" Sensei?

The fact that I sought out George Kirby, George Alexander and Lou Angel, all in the publics eye, almost makes me a part of what you dislike.

I don't have a problem with anyones beliefs, we are all entitled to them. It just seemed pointed at me after I re-read your posts.

 

[Matt Stone]

To quote one of my drill sergeants in basic training, "What's the matter Guilty Conscience?!?"

No, akja, I was not taking pot shots at you at all. While I have taken issue with some of your comments in the past, I have posted (more than once) that I no longer have issues with you.

What I was commenting on were the people that present their history in place of their own qualifications, as if having studied with someone of good reputation is enough to ensure their own skills, and further proof is unnecessary. That's crap, and I think you'd agree.

There are folks on this board (some who post a lot, some who have posted recently, some who haven't been around for a while) that my comments were more directly related to. However, you are not one of them (unless you present your training history as a substitute for your own abilities, which I am positive you would not).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Guys,
Keep it constructive. Name calling, etc is only gonna get things shut down fast.




Kaith Rustaz,
I did'nt mean anything negative by my statement and I hope I did'nt upset you because that was not my intention.

My point was just that there alot of opinions here and those are hard to back up, but if somthing can be backed up I feel it should be. I also feel that if someone Is not real sure about a subject they should'nt argue with someone who knows what there talking about.

Again I do apologize if you took my words the wrong way I hope this makes my points a little clearer.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
To quote one of my drill sergeants in basic training, "What's the matter Guilty Conscience?!?"

No, akja, I was not taking pot shots at you at all. While I have taken issue with some of your comments in the past, I have posted (more than once) that I no longer have issues with you.

What I was commenting on were the people that present their history in place of their own qualifications, as if having studied with someone of good reputation is enough to ensure their own skills, and further proof is unnecessary. That's crap, and I think you'd agree.

There are folks on this board (some who post a lot, some who have posted recently, some who haven't been around for a while) that my comments were more directly related to. However, you are not one of them (unless you present your training history as a substitute for your own abilities, which I am positive you would not).

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Thanx buddy,
I really really started looking at who was out there that could guide me in higher learning after re-assessing myself on what and where I was going in the martial arts. I looked at my past experience along with where I felt I should be headed. The instructors that I chose are helping me put it together.

You and a few others helped me to see things in a differant light too. All good.