Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
Sorry, but I've got to address this. Not really sure where you got your history from, so let's ake it bit by bit...
Sorry, but I've got to address this. Not really sure where you got your history from, so let's ake it bit by bit...
I think if you look at history though you will find that many of our great arts have come from just that. For instance - Ninjutsu. During the time of Samurai oppression there was one farmer who had the guts or lunacy (whoever writes history) to stand up to an oppressive Samurai and take his sword while unarmed.
Now this is a new origin story to me! The ninja were often displaced Samurai, not farmers. That was part of the origin of Karate on the Ryukyu Islands (the Ryukyu Kingdom), most notably Okinawa.
At the time, the Ryukyu chain of Islands had been occupied by the Japanese, probably to occupy the Samurai's time so they didn't start fighting each other, and the Okinawan locals were banned from possessing most forms of weaponry (it should be noted that they were not banned from holding all weapons, as the upper classes were permitted to wear items such as Shoto [short swords] as a part of their social positioning).
When the occupation became too much, the locals, who had combined their local combative knowledge with the newer teachings from China, and had been working on a form of resistance movement, responded to the Samurai. This art would later become what we know as Karate, although that name was still quite a way off. But it's principles, origin, tactics, methods, weaponry (and even it's reasons for the development of it's particular weaponry) are all very different from those found in Ninjutsu. So, no, the Ninja originators were not farmers, but Samurai, hence their weaponry being actual, purposefully designed, weapons.
As this legend grew so did the art - the man was said to be possibly from China and if you look at the movements it makes sense. As history went on and Samurai left their masters and some Samurai paid Ninja to get rid of other Samurai you had melding. Eventually you had Ninjutsu from two different regions, Iga and Koka, which then spawn into nine Ryu which all learn tactics of hiding their illegal weapons.
Yeah, uh, no. Various schools do have as part of their origins teachings thta originate in China, but China was seen to be the source of pretty much all knowledge for a great deal of Japanese history. The written language is pretty much ripped off from the Chinese, the court structure was based on the Chinese, the first styles of armour and swords were based on the Chinese, in order to be considered an educated Japanese you had to learn the 5 Chinese Classics (which proved you could at least read, and probably write). So claiming China is not unusual, nor unexpected.
But some of the stories go back even further. Koto Ryu, for instance, often has it's history traced back to China when members of the court fled to Korea, the art continued through to Chan Busho and Ikai who brought it to Japan. But delve back further and you find stories of it being in India (before China) where it was known as Karani, meaning "magical techniqes, or skills", due to the ease with which opponents were knocked down.
Samurai paying Ninja? As established, Ninja often were Samurai, so no. And the word "Samurai" comes form the term "sabaru", meaning "to serve". The Samurai were not the ones paying, that would be the Daimyo (fuedal lords of domains of varying sizes, always vying with each other for more power and influence). And rather than them "melding", the Samurai often tranied in Ninja arts, and vice versa. In fact, tracing the history of the remaining arts, you will find the a number of them have been identified as either Ninja or Samurai arts at different times depending on who was the head at the time, and the political climate surrounding it.
The last sentence (in this part). Well. Yes, there do appear to have been two distinct geographical regions with which the Ninja are most associated, however the rest of this sentence is just plain nonsense. Pronunciation aside (Iga and Koga/Koka/Kohka - the first is probably the most accepted, I've mainly seen bogus Koga Ryu groups try to emphasise the latter two to give the appearance of knowledge, but I'm not ruling them out), saying that these locales resulted in 9 Ryu is simply not understanding the way the arts are today. So I'll make it simple.
According to the best estimates, there were between 73 and 250 different, seperate, and distinct ryu of Ninjutsu which came into existance between the Kamakura Jidai and the Sengoku Jidai (basically 13th century through to the end of the 16th, beginning of the 17th century), of which only a tiny handful have managed to survive. Where they have survived is in the Bujinkan and it's related bretheren. The Bujinkan is made up of 9 seperate ryu, which are Ninja and Samurai arts, the number of each depending upon your interpretation of which are Ninja and which are Samurai. But definately, at least 3 Ninjutsu systems (Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, as well as possibly Gikan Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Koto Ryu), and a few Samurai arts (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, as well as Shinden Fudo Ryu, and depending on the interpretation, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, and Koto Ryu).
The weaponry was not hidden because it was illegal. It is just easier to surprise someone of they don't realise you're armed. Remember, this was a time when people commonly walked around with weapons, not just Samurai. It was the same in Europe, the rest of Asia, even the early frontier days of America had most men walking around with guns. Just the way it was (and it sometimes seems, still is in parts).
Then Japan gets upset and decides all these warriors around killing each other are too powerful for the Emperor to build a society in which he can have free trade with other nations. He hires the Samurai to do away with the Ninja. He thinks they have succeeded. Fortunately, Ninjutsu is an art based in secrecy, silence, and shadows. Hence, then it is time to do something with the Samurai. They hire Americans with the Gattling (please I know I am spelling this wrong help me out) Gun.
At this point, in fact ever since the Ashikaga Shogunate, from about 1336, the Emperor was little more than a figurehead the Shoguns used to keep the populace happy. So we can take him out of the equation. But you seem to be jumping around through history here. The Emperor was looking for free trade with the rest of the world after the Meiji restoration (1862-8), which occured after the fall of the Tokugawa Shogunate. One of the major catalysts for this, it should be noted, was Commodore Perry basically demanding Japan opens it's doors or be blown up, as the Tokugawa Shogunate had had Japan existing as an isolationist state for over 200 years (for the record, although Tokugawa Ieyasu often gets credit for that, it was the third Tokugawa Shogun who actually closed Japan off).
With "the Emperor hiring the Samurai to do away with the Ninja", not sure where to start with this... The Emperor was pretty much powerless at this point, as noted, so he didn't do anything (by the way, we've suddenly jumped back from the Meiji Restoration to the mid-late Sengoku Jidai, or from 1870+ back to the 1560's). The Samurai were loyal to the particular Daimyo they served, unless they were Ronin, so no need to "hire" them for anything. They were employed, not hired. What I believe you are alluding to are the two invasions of Iga by Oda Nobunaga. The first was headed by his son, and although they had superior forces, Oda's army was soundly routed. The next time, Oda Nobunaga himself led the campaign, and outnumbered the residents of Iga probably about 10:1 (the most common numbers I have heard are 40,000 for Oda, 4,000 Iga residents). This time the Iga warriors had little chance, with some reports having as few as 80 Ninja escaping the battle of Iga no Ran.
We then jump forward again to post-Meiji Japan, and we look to the events fictionalised in "The Last Samurai". Not sure what any of this has to do with Ninjutsu being an art of "secrecy and shadows", or of "the Emperor believing the Ninja were destroyed". It should be noted that not long after the battle fo Iga no Ran, Oda Nobunaga was assasinated by one of his own generals (note: a Samurai!), and Tokugawa Ieyasu employed Hattori Hanzo and his Iga-Gumi Ninja to assist him in intelligence gathering in his (successful) quest to become Shogun, Miiltary Leader of Japan.
Now all warrior arts in Japan are banned. Jigoro Kano wishes to train others so that his art that he is a master in does not die. He takes the lethality out of the beginning ranks of Japanese Ju Jutsu and it becomes Judo. The lethal moves are saved for the masters above whose loyalty he has earned.
The only total ban on Martial Arts in Japan that I know of was imposed after World War 2 by the occupying American forces, and that lasted less than a decade. It is true that after the Tokugawa took control of Japan, there became less and less opportunity and need for Samurai to keep up their Martial skills, but a number of them found a way to translate their arts into new financial gain, including operating as security or police (taking the place of the commoners who had previously held these positions), and in some cases by teaching their skills to the general public. It could bery well be argued that this then is the origin of the formalisation, or creation, of the ryu we know today.
As for Kano Jigoro "wanting to train others so the art he mastered doesn't die", Kaon had mastered a number of arts, most prominent amongst them the Kito Ryu and the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. As was the custom at that time, once recieving mastership of an art, a student was expected to go their own way seperate from the art, unless they were being groomed to take over. Kano simply did what was expected, which was to combine his knowledge to develop his own approach to the skills. The result was what would later be called judo. As for removing the lethal techniques, and only giving them to his most trusted, not sure where you got that from. The original form of judo, as far as I know, was very rough and violent as were the arts that spawned it. In competition, however, Kano imposed a new set of rules under which they would compete, which gave the new Kano-ha Jujutsu students an edge. There were still quite nasty techniques involved.
From the Japanese occupation of Okinawa we get Karate.
Yes. See above.
From the Japanese occupation of Korea we get Tae Kwon Do. And after Korea splits we get ITF and WTF.
No. From General Choi studying Shotokan Karate we get Tae Kwon Do. From the Japanese occupation of Korea we get long lasting tensions between nations, and possibly the initial stages of Kumdo. But not Tae Kwon Do. And the ITF and WTF after Korea splits? The Korean War split the Tae Kwon Do associations? Nah, it was just people having disputes of political power within heirachies. No big surprise there.
Bruce Lee mentioned above is told that he will never be allowed to teach the white man. He creates his own style and does it anyway - OK, really long movie shortened into a really short paragraph. (Trying to keep things light and intelligent and non-threatening in anyway. :angel
Without getting into the HUGE number of errors in the movie "Dragon" with Scott Lee (this is the one you are refering to, yes?), there were said to be issues with what Bruce himself was taught by Yip Man, being not full-blooded Chinese, so the movie version of his "struggle to break free from the oppression of tradition and blindly-followed dogma" is a little out of place. I believe he was confronted, and challenged to be able to teach publicly, but that is more to do with teaching the public than a particular race. He later starts to put together his own interpretation of what is important, branching out from his original teachings, and that is the formation of Jeet Kune Do. Not a symbolic statement against those who refuse to embrace the future he represented.
The point of this is, is that all of these men were supposed to fail at the creation of their own art. Heck, (not cursing) most of them were supposed to end up dead for it. Yet they succeeded. But here we are, Monday morning quarterbacking masters that have the courage or lunacy to try to do it where they see a need.
Um, huh? No, not lunacy, and they were not supposed to "end up dead" for starting a new art, instead, as I said with Kano Sensei, it was simply common practise.
In my husband's case it was a cultural need. He has a few mixes of Asian blood, one being Japanese and he wanted to them together. It has never been about the money. As far as the Ninjutsu goes, any student that has qualified for Ninjutsu training under the old rules takes an oath and trains privately in that art for FREE. Even the uniform and weapons are gift because at that point they are family of his master and treated as such. Any student who asks to be taught never will be. The closest he ever comes to teaching "Ninpo" is a monthly seminar on a weapon or technique. No paying student is taught the full system. He strictly teaches Budoiki Ryu Bujutsu which is a hybrid art that has been recognized and Tae Kwon Do which he is a 3rd dan in and will be going for his 4th dan in this fall. When a student makes dan grade in Budoiki Ryu Bujutsu they also have completed the full curriculum to make Dan grade in WTF Tae Kwon Do. That way if they feel they want to move on they can.
This, I must say, simply smacks of movie fantasy land. If you want to learn you can't, and if you do get taught, you don't pay, but we don't teach Ninjutsu/Ninpo except at occassional seminars on one aspect or another, but our website is set up around Ninjutsu as it's entire selling point... Not quite following you there. There are definate, and quite legitimate, concerns about the ninjutsu aspects of your (husband's?) school. If the basis of everything you teach there is Tae Kwon Do, why not emphasise that instead? It would be more accurate, as well as less confusing to us here.
These are my opinions and why I have them. Opinions are like colds - everybody gets them nobody minds sharing but nobody wants yours (and yes that was a cleaned up addage) but I just wanted to share because I did see some open minded souls on here.
Yes, we do certainly appreciate opinions, and new approaches, but you unfortunately have not started on the right footing here, with a seeming lack of understanding on the subject you are addressing. That in itself isn't a problem nor indeed a bad thing, so please realise we are just trying to help when we ask for some verification or details. And, yes, I realise you have just begun this journey, and don't want to doubt your husband/master, so please recognise our intentions here are not aggressive nor antagonistic. We are simply interested in finding the truth to our chosen paths, as I am sure you are. And, as you asked in another thread, my current rank is Sandan (3rd Dan) with some 16-odd years of training in Ninjutsu, 6 years of Karate and Tae Kwon Do before that, and as much reading and learning as I could get for the past 25 years plus.
Budo and because I forgot to say so yesterday Happy St Patty's Day,
