Claims on the Internet.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Ken,

I understand your point. But as I noted above, many would say the Kukkiwon is not the authority, or has lost it's authority an/or credibility due to many 'situations'. One could argue that is why several high rankers broke off and began world organizations of their own. We've all heard the stories of get on the plane as a blue belt and get off as a 6th Dan. We've heard stories of ethnic discrimination. I'm merely pointing out that to one Korean arts practitioner the Kukkiwon might be the world...to another a money grubbing warehouse.

I would like to say that since I'm not into any Korean arts in terms of rank, I have nothing for or against the Kukkiwon. They just happened to be the first one to come to mind for illustration purposes. If a TKD practitioner came to me with Kukkiwon backing great...if he didn't....great. I know far to many involved in the Korean arts/Kukkiwon and know the 'budo gone bad' stories. If the TKD practitioner/instructor has the ability then that is enough for me.

So to some organization Y is the one, the only, the best of the best...to others maybe not. It would seem this in and of itself has caused quite a division amoungst us as practitioners of the
'arts'.

My humble opinion.
:asian:

Too bad, the authority is authority. You might have opinions on authority, but that's about it, it doesn't change the fact that they are still in charge. The founders and lineage, the history, etc. all backs them up. It's like Colts. They are the authority in the 1911 market. It doesn't matter on how much market share they have, or whether this brand of 1911 is better. Colts withstood the test of time, being one of the oldest firearm companies in the US, their pistols and rifles have gone through every major war in the 20th and 21st century the US has been involved in, etc. They were the original, and the rest are clones and imitations, no matter how good they become.

I have an il-dan certificate from Kukkiwon, but my drill instructors in the past barely went through the forms like some McDojangs today stress. They had their own little system within the system, but the final authority was still Kukkiwon. Most original organizations do give some leniency on how you teach, etc., but if I were to have a black belt that was not from Kukkiwon, and not in their database, then it would be nothing. One of my old instructor's father was on the council. I'm not certain on its politics, but he was on the original council that is credited for making TKD so popular (which is both a good and a very bad thing).

For LEO organizations, you can belong into A, B, and C. But if it isn't the authorized A, then you are merely running either a private investigation organization or are just being vigilantes.

 

[MartialArtist]

Dead horse? Am I missing something? Is this the incident with ZDW aka MRJ aka ARK? I really haven't been participating in those threads so I'm not sure.

 

[Matt Stone]

Yep.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chufeng
Rich,

Thank you so much for stirring the pot, once again...
With moderators like you, things should calm down in a hurry

My post was directed to ONE individual who, like you, wanted to stir the pot...

So, Rich, if you can't follow the thread and its intent, I'll give you the bottom line:

I am through commenting about A.R.K.'s (his new name) credentials...the frickin' horse is dead...Now drop YOUR stick...if you weren't beating the horse, you might actually see what's going on here.

:asian:
chufeng

Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me.

I appriciate you taking the time to educate me on this.

The Frickin Horse is dead, got it!

My Stick is dropped. I guess we will have to take each others' word that we will not mention this again. For if either of us ever do then, I guess we will know the true worth of that person's word.

Thank you again, Sir for the wonderful education.
:asian:



PS: The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion. I apologize for not making the crystal clear. So, it is not with Moderators like me, but with posters like me. Have a Nice Day, I know I did by riding my bike

 

[A.R.K.]

Martialartist,

I understand your point but would like to point out that to some the authority is not the authority. In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally. They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own. Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done. If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them? To some yes and to some no. But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?

My humble thoughts.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

In regards to this thread, in my opinion it has gone quite well. No one is taking shots at anyone on certain topics. It would seem general opinions and thoughts are being offered in a friendly matter without trying to step on toes deliberately. At least that is my take.

Is that not the way it should be? We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff

In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo. There of course may well be more to it than that. My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions. Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide. It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.

Just a thought.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me

You're welcome.

The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion

oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...

I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...

Have a good day...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Is that not the way it should be? We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff

No, you must agree with me because I am always right... most of the time... occasionally... once in a while... sometimes... usually not at all... nearly never...

In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo. There of course may well be more to it than that. My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions. Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide. It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.

I still maintain that it would be easier to pare down an art into a competitive form than it would be to build one from the ground up. For the run of the mill 22 year old, that just isn't within the confines of the possibilities of normal life experiences. It would be the truly unique personality that would allow for enough life experience, training time, skill development and martial genius to allow someone to do so...

Kano and others like him are the exception, not the rule. I'm not saying that it is impossible, only highly improbable.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Martialartist,

I understand your point but would like to point out that to some the authority is not the authority. In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally. They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own. Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done. If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them? To some yes and to some no. But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?

My humble thoughts.
:asian:

There's a flaw in this reasoning though. So they break off... Their instructors who approved their rank prior to the schism remain exactly the same however, and whatever lineage those had is still documented so that someone can call up the instructor/home office and ask what rank they were awarded prior to them leaving the orginization at the very least. The instructor wouldn't even have to be widely known as long as he was in the books somewhere.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
But does "repackaging" really amount to creating a new system? If I put a Big Mac in a paper box instead of a styrofoam one, is the burger really any different?



So you really are are traditionalist! Everything you wrote in that description is true of living traditional martial arts (as opposed to the dead ones that have stagnated and failed to pass on anything other than mimicked movements). Nothing really new there...



So if you are "grooming" them according to your expectations, they really aren't any better off than they would be if they went to another school... They should be presented information, techniques, theories and strategies, all of which they should be required to learn, but portions of which they will choose to make "their own" through practice. In this way, "their own" techniques will be put into practice and they will develop their own abilities out of them. By making them conform to your perceptions of what is best is really forcing them to conform to your beliefs and abilities, not necessarily theirs.

When I learned Yiliquan from Sifu Starr, he really didn't emphasize one part over any other. He presented the entire package to us for us to digest and internalize. I prefer to hammer away at someone, punishing them before turning out the lights. That's my preference, and it goes along with my physical stature. One of our other instructors prefers throws and joint locks, nearly to the exclusion of other techniques. That fits his body type and mentality. But we all teach exactly the same material. We may have our own unique way of approaching the communication of it, but we leave nothing out. That way, the student can decide what their likes and dislikes are, and where their natural abilities lie...



Just because we can change a thing doesn't necessarily mean we should. Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.

I agree

For example, BJJ came from judo. The biggest difference that I can think of is that BJJ focuses more on submission moves. Basically the same concepts, just different emphasis. I wouldn't say BJJ was a new style really, just took what was already existing and narrowed the perspective a bit, just like what judo did to jujitsu.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chufeng
You're welcome.



oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...

I apologize if I came across wrong, yet it is wrong to assume that I will act just like others. Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this. If you have a problem with me as a member or moderator then report me, do not make idle threats. I do apologize if that is not what you meant, yet others have made similar comments on this board. Since, you seem to think I am like others, I am forced to think you might be others as well, playing by your rules.

Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.

Originally posted by chufeng

I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...

Have a good day...

:asian:
chufeng

Hmmm On topic. Yes. I agree, so that I do not make the mistake again, please explain how the little ditty about the horse was on topic? I know I have missed the topic, as you have clearly pointed out to me. So, I am very confused, and would like to be educated on this issue.


As to posting, I should think three times. Hmmmm, maybe if all of the members also followed this nice advice and in my opinion yourself, then maybe just maybe there would be less confusion and less disagreements.



Oh Yeah, I think in general this thread has gone well, I just took person exception to the dead horse being beaten by a stick. So, like I said I missed the point of this thread. Just learning.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Rich,

Since you are a moderator, I think you can verify that I've never turned anyone in for any comment in any thread, ever...I don't play that game.

Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this.

Really, HOW can I threaten you? I don't appoint moderators...I don't get people fired...
It was simply an observation...

The dead horse thread was to EMPHASIZE to DAC that the four people involved in that "discussion" had put the issue to rest...if you go back a ways you'll see where he tried to stir it up...I was trying to put an end to it once and for all.

As far as "playing by my rules" I don't know what you are trying to insinuate...I am a guest on this board and rules established by the moderators are the rules I play by...

Have a good day
:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Why is Chufeng the one being questioned about this when DAC is the one that tried to put some gas on a fire that was already out?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.

I think you need to re-read the thread from the beginning. Chufeng was trying to squelch something before it got started back up.

What was the topic of this thread anyway?????

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
What was the topic of this thread anyway?????

Heck, I am confused. I think it had something to do with the fact that some people are quite willing to claim something in a public forum, where it can be read by millions of people, and when they are asked for some sort of proof they get evasive.

Of course, it just seems to be common sense that if you do so, then you have to expect most people to talk about you like you are a lying, incompetent fraud. If you claim you studied under a certain master, you need to prove it. If you don't want to reveal something while proving it, you should not be talking about it in the open in the first place. The same goes for street fighting experiences, military service, ranks or anything else that may be asked to be proven. There are points in my life I don't like to talk about. I do not even mention them in passing. I will never have to prove something based on something I do not want out in the open.

In my opinion, anyone who makes a claim about their personal training and then refuses to back that claim up is a fraud. Everything they or their students say from that point on is suspect. I can not even count how many times I have run across groups that claim to have 1000 year old Japanese lineages only to check and see that no one in Japan has ever heard of them and the guy who "revealed" the art to the public is completely ignorant of anything Japanese. But 99 times out of 100 they come back and say, "lineages/rank aren't important- fighting is and we can fight!" Oh? If lineages aren't important, why did you mention them in the first place? And why should we trust your word that you guys can fight?

And I am talking about personal experience. Some people bring up the fact that some arts can't be traced back 500 years like they claim to cover the fact that they can't prove that they had the training they boast about. I accept that problems happen with history over time, but everyone should be able to prove the claims they themselves make about what they did and achieved.

I just got through with a thread on another forum. The head of the style wrote a response talking about how no one was interested in getting to the truth, only attacking them. And he mentioned how no one had said anything to his face. I shot back a response saying that I did ask for some sort of proof that the guy's teacher was in Japan and offered to go visit them when they showed up in Japan this summer as they claim. So far- silence. It is rather amazing that the grand poo bah of an art seems scared of a little guy like me.

As for Kano and Lee, both of them did not really come up with a style, rather a way of looking at martial arts and training. If you look at the Koshiki no kata of the Kdokan, you will find the curriculum of the Kito ryu. Kano just wanted a new way of training that relflected the Western ways of education he had been exposed to. JKD students take things from complete arts like Kali, boxing and Wing Chun and make their own way. In neither case did the two really come up with techniques and say, "this is the way!" Both just rebbelled against the "classical mess" they saw and developed a new philosophy.

But for someone in the modern age to start an art at age 22 is somewhat silly- but common. Toi start your own style is to become head of it. To be head of a style means you are a master in the eyes of others. And the image that people build up in the eyes of others tends to be something they will defend to the death rather than admit they do not know everything. 22, that is a time to make many, many mistakes and learn from them. Too many "masters" just can not afford to make mistakes in the eyes of their students. Many do not push themselves enough. Some will even try to explain away their failures as some sort of brilliance.

But true growth comes from setting goals outside your reach, falling flat on your face and then after you dust yourself off, asking, "why did I fail and how can I avoid doing so the next time?"

I will give you an example. There was a guy who started his own "modern ninjutsu" style in 1979. I have a book written by him from 1999- two decades later. Despite 20 years as a master, he is still making mistakes that were very, very basic and would get him corrected in any dojo I associate with.

I am sure you have heard of Miyamoto Musashi. Have you ever heard of a contemporary of his called Yagyu Munenori? He was also a great swordsman who sent many swordsmen to defeat in his age. Both Musashi and Munenori had reputations as very efficient killers in an age known for its violence by the time they were 30 or so. Yet both of them wrote comments to the effect that they did not really understand martial arts until they were about 50. So you see how I look at 22 year olds that talk about starting their own style?

Here is a more recent example. Have you heard of "Jim Grover"? If you are interested in teaching self defense I would reccomend his stuff. In his book on street smarts he says this, (pg 171)

Second, it has been my experience that once one has named a technique after himself- even if the instructor is faced with irrefutable proof that there is a better, safer more effecient technique- he'll defend his to the end. After all, in his eyes he'll be remembered as having claimed to develop the best technique when, in fact, it wasn't. This is all good fun until you realize that teaching a substandard method may cost a person his life. If I learn something better today and can validate it, I'll be teaching it tommorow.

22 year old masters? Claims that can be made in public but can never be backed up- even as somethign as simple as who taught you? These are things that should set off alarms in people's heads. But of course, there are always people who need to be seen as macho in the eyes of others and people who will follow them. I think everyone should read the article "Tenth Dan in Bul Shi Tsu" written by Sharp Phil at PhilElmore.com. I can not seem to link directly to it.

 

[A.R.K.]

:shrug: Opinions vary....

At length I discussed 'proving' something in regards to the martial arts. Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?

And should they offer it to those that demand or to those that respectfully request?

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Many good points, Don.

Our school has had several "renegades" who opened schools with our founder's good wishes, but who then went on to "do their own thing." They were given permission to teach but were also to do so within the guidelines of the Association...they didn't.

One was charging a lot of money (up to $100/mo) for lessons and had strayed from the "standards" set down by sifu (who teaches for very little)...when they were told to get in line they said they had "grown beyond sifu's understanding." What a load of crap... My teacher is now 56 years old; he started training at the age of 7... He's trained many "black sash" level students but that does not qualify them for teaching our system...those who want to teach, must complete an instructor's course...After that they may open a school, with permission (and supervision, if they are below third level black sash)...yet, we've had first level students open schools and declare that sifu didn't know what he was talking about...BUT, they were more than willing to use the YiLi logo and name to promote the stuff they developed...they have since changed the name of what they do (after a visit, or threatened visit, by my senior, Mr. Burgess)...

Funnier still, I've met black belts from MANY different styles...I've trained with them...and they ask me to teach them...I hold to the standards of my teacher...how is it that senior folk in other styles desire to learn YiLi as it was intended to be taught? and at the same time, those who have broken away are finding it difficult? Because the system works...those who let their ego get in the way of real learning and then make claims to some grandiose rank and knowledge really do piss me off...and that is why I am so suspicious of claims of sokeship...and dan ranks beyond 7th.

But even in the little town of Puyallup, Washington, there are no less than three grandmasters advertising in the yellow pages...go figure...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

I was always amazed at how many martial arts masters and grandmasters that had settled in all the small towns I have lived in... It must be the sense of community and overall safety that these most deadly of people seek out as a haven from the violence that surely follows them every waking moment...

Or not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

A.R.K.,

Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?

There is no way to verify beyond checking the records of the organizations or teachers who they claim to have trained under.

Scanned documents won't fly because they can be faked...
Phone calls won't work (if numbers are provided by the fake) because they may simply instruct their friend(s) to cover for them.

So, it is very difficult to verify claims made on the internet...
Your student, DAC, has actually done more for your credibility (even though he needs to learn when enough is enough) than anything you've provided...

At any rate, I accept you as a fellow instructor...you have YOUR art, which you've designed and founded...I do not view it as a traditional system, however...and I think you said as much, recently, in a post about reorganizing the rank structure, etc...

Peace
:asian:
chufeng