Can YOU Be Beaten?

[Xue Sheng]

My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!

Tez answered these quite well, but being an American I don't know when to shut my yap and I feel I need to throw in my 2 cents

There are two things that bother me bout this:

1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?

No, now you can stop worrying about it and relax

2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow? What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo? Then what?

If you are concerned about losing you are not thinking about the fight and you will loose but you are not concerned about whether or not you can be defeated because you know you can so you are not thinking about it at all, therefore you just keep fighting until you walk away or fall that is all. Just because you admit you can be beaten does not mean you will be


Were Samurai weaker or stronger, better or worse fighters because they admitted to themselves they would die in battle (aka already dead)?

 

[sgtmac_46]

@sgt_mac

, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you

I think you misunderstood Jenna, or I did. Sgt_mac isn't being blase. There's nothing blase about that mindset, it is an acceptance that death is an inevitable part of life, and that someone is going to die in this situation, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure it's not me. I recognize that it may be, but it won't be easy, and there's a price to be paid one way or the other. It's making use of the adreneline and not accepting defeat as an option, even though it's a possibility.

That's exactly right......I don't want to die, and i'm willing to do everything in my power to prevent that.

Concern about one's safety, in general, is a good thing.......it helps you avoid danger.......however, once danger is engaged in close proximity, that kind of nagging fear isn't all that helpful anymore.......it can, in fact, limit effective action and ensure defeat. In those rare instances aggression will save you, when caution will not. Therefore, a certain measure of disregard for one's own safety, in exchange for defeating the other, is what is called for.

It kind of involves walking around in life with two contradictory mindsets........one for general day to day living, and the other, a special mindset that can be triggered in a moments notice when needed........kind of like 'In case of emergency, break glass'.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!

I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious.

It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.

It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.

 

[Jenna]

I can definitely be beaten. If I am in a life or death situation, I don't care what the other persons 'skill' level is, I'm doing evrything I can to survive.

But I'm really not sure what you looking for here Jenna. You asked the question, a lot of people have given you really good answers from a diversity of viepoints, and you still have a "yeah but what if" for everyone. If you are completely outmatched physically in everyway and have no chance to survive? What answer are you looking for? "Stand up an take you defeat like a Samurai!" or "curl up in a weeping ball and pray." Where does your question lead? If you have no chance whatsoever no matter what you do, no matter how committed you are to survive and how quick witted and prepared you are for the scenario, then you die, unless the other person has mercy on you. What does admitting whether you can be defeated or not play in that scenario?

Yes my friend you are right I had worried that people would get annoyed to push an apparent hypothetical out so far like this and I apologise I do not mean to annoy anybody I am sorry. And but thank you for cutting in a little I think I am just in a bit of a bind and looking for magickal solutions. I am sorry to get carried away. I would say no more bout it thank you sincerely Jenna xo

 

[MJS]

Some of you are very clever and insightful bout this thank you again. I am grateful to have such experience and advice around me it makes it a pleasure to be here you are all very special people thank you.. You have encouraged me to post the one last on this so blame yourselves haha..

And I do not want to annoy or upset anybody thinking I am playing games.. I would not change the scenario; the scenario is always the same.. You have admitted [it being prudent to do so] that you can be defeated. You are not arrogant in matters of your defence. Confident, yes. Experienced, yes. And but accepting that the potential exists somewhere somehow for your defeat. You are sensible bout that. Nobody could argue..

Please imagine then now that you are not talking possibilities, rather you ARE encountering this opponent that you envisaged. He IS real. He has no mind to chat, to have a drink, to be civil, to chill, to lighten up, to philosophise, or to hear your half-assed reasoning. He is here for you unlike a nightmare creature that you can even ask “why”. This is it. There is no extrication or egress when you are already caught. Instinct then. Your very best move has just done NOTHING to him. You see all your options struck off. Perhaps this is your epiphany moment and you understand that this is check AND mate. All your arsenal is rendered second-rate with him. There can be no disbelief that such a thing could happen when you have already established the possibility in your head. This is you. There is no time to rethink. Time is all up. What are you going to do? What? Submit? Surrender?

If you say this is nonsensical and unrealistic then I would just say that it is a metaphor on other things maybe. You know like maybe when you hit a brick-wall scenario at work, what do you do? Admit defeat? Give up your job? Maybe sometimes that is expedient. Most times I think that option is unavailable. I would ask how do you find something extra within you that EVEN YOU did not know you had? Is that even possible or is it just pure fanciful? What is that something extra? Can it be quantified?

Ah you are going to be sick of me now that is ok and but I hope not because I value what you are all saying.
Always
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Janna

Like I said in my other posts....train hard and fight hard! IMO, part of winning is the mental game. While it would be crazy to say that we wouldn't be nervous, if we start thinking, "Oh man, this is my worst nightmare in front of me right now. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm probably going to die." then chances are, we're already setting ourselves up to fail. In the end, even if we do lose, we need to keep that winning mindset.

 

[Tez3]

I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious.

It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.

It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.

The QRL have a glorious history and and long list of battle honours, the most infamous perhaps being the Charge of the Light Brigade by the 17th Lancers, part of the regiment now. They are still part of the Light Brigade (19th) now.

Their first battle honour was Blenheim in 1704 through Salamanca, Afghanistan in 1839, Khartoum, Ypres, Cambrai, Somme, Cassino, Tunis, Wadi al Batin 1991, Al Basrah 2003 and up to Afghanistan now with many battles in between. The present day soldiers are very aware of the 'ghosts' that perhaps still fight with them. In many of the battles they have faced death upholding their motto and while wars are to be condemned you can't help getting that shiver down your back at the thought of such bravery, excitement and the chance of a glorious death. The truth may not be so romantic but dear lord it is alluring!

Gets fun downtown too as they keep fighting with the QDG (Queens Dragoon Guards), an older cavalry regiment lol! they have many battle honours too but you may know them from the U Tube rendition of 'Road to Amarillo'! Their regiment however has a link to America, in that they fought in the War of Independence (our side lol not yours) and Sir Banastre Tarleton was a noted member of the regiment. He was captured at Yorktown.

The past is often very present with these old regiments as parts of the uniforms they wear such as the brass helmets are a hundred years old or more so the past is there in a very physical way. When they have the Sunset ceremonies and the Beating of the Retreat it's as if time stood still and as you said the thoughts turn to those battles against the odds and something better than ourselves is brought out, a nobleness, even if it's only fleeting.

We have fighters from both regiments as well as infantry soldiers who train in the club.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have been on vacation (holiday to some) so I just found this thread

It dose not bother me to say there will some out there that can best me. That however in no way means that I would not give my best in my effort to win.
The fact that I reconise that there are some better than me out there make me train all the harder and strive to learn even more

 

[Guardian]

Most people can beat me but unless they killed me I'd come back when they weren't looking and hit them round the head with a baseball bat.

Seriously, old and sneaky beats young and fit everytime. In a fair fight I'd get beaten but, frankly, I wouldn't fight fair.

My thoughts exactly here.

 

[Archangel M]

If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.

 

[Tez3]

If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.

perhaps a better mindset is "I won't be beaten"?

 

[SensibleManiac]

Mindset is one thing and important but the truth is that everyone can be beaten and thinking otherwise will only delude you.

Having a realistic view and training realistically is only part of the equation, as already stated, avoidance is very important.
I would also add awareness being critical as well.

Ultimately, being beaten or not shouldn't be the question on our minds,
can you survive? is a better question and one that isn't as easily answered.

 

[K-man]

If you think "I cant be beaten" and your opponent is thinking "I cant be beaten"....well SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Perhaps both of you.

And, at the end of the fight, there is really no winner.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. Sun Tzu

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Not sure if the last few posts were directed at what I said, regarding the mindset. If so, let me clarify. If you look back to my first post, I did state that anyone can be beaten. Yes, of course, again, as I say, training doesnt turn us into supermen and women. However, I'm sure that every MMA fighter, every football, baseball and basketball team, goes out, onto their respective venue, with the win mindset, fully knowing that they may lose. If you go out with the attitude that you're going to lose, then mentally, you've already put the odds on the other person.

Again, the person, in this case, the martial artist, needs to understand that no matter who we are, there is a chance that we could lose, or worse, get killed. We need to understand we're not invincible. But while we understand that, there is nothing wrong with keeping a positive mental attitude.

Mike

 

[jonbey]

You have to believe that you can win, but strive to understand your weaknesses so that you can defend them and play to your strengths. Fights are lost in a second.

Also, I recall reading once that the Samurai (possibly) would contemplate their death in combat once everyday. Not sure if/how it helped, but they were pretty nifty with a sword.

 

[Tez3]

I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!

 

[Ken Morgan]

I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!

I’d hate to be the one you run away from, because I know at 2 o’clock in the morning you’ll be waiting around a corner with a baseball bat waiting….

 

[Tez3]

I’d hate to be the one you run away from, because I know at 2 o’clock in the morning you’ll be waiting around a corner with a baseball bat waiting….

LOL, what can I say? It's true I'm afraid, blame my instructor. Ten years ago I was a nice little karateka, he turned me into a fighter. Well, it probably was always there, he just gave me the tools I needed.

 

[sgtmac_46]

perhaps a better mindset is "I won't be beaten"?

That is a better way of thinking......in that sense, in the sense of your will, it is the only thing you really control anyway. Someone cannot TAKE your will away, you can only give it.

British poet William Ernest Henley said it best....

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate;
I am the captain of my soul.

 

[morph4me]

I think that mindset is probably the most important thing. Once you accept that death is inevitalbe, you can really start to appreciate what you've got and you can got on with the business of living, and all that it entails.

Once you live every day as if it may be your last, you don't just roll over, just because you've come up against an opponent that is more powerful or better than you, you do what you have to.

Avoidance, running away, figting harder, taking him with you are all decisions that you make at the appropriate time and under the appropriate circumstances. You do what you need to do to survive, but in the end, we all end up the same way.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Mindset is one thing and important but the truth is that everyone can be beaten and thinking otherwise will only delude you.

Having a realistic view and training realistically is only part of the equation, as already stated, avoidance is very important.
I would also add awareness being critical as well.

Ultimately, being beaten or not shouldn't be the question on our minds,
can you survive? is a better question and one that isn't as easily answered.

I get your point, and don't disagree......I do take issue with the concept of 'survival'.........even 'victims' can 'survive'........merely surviving shouldn't be the goal........the goal should be to triumph and overcome.

When confronted, the path to victory is to impose your will.......and you do not do that by simply thinking 'Man, I need to eek out a way of surviving somehow out of this situation'.