Can you take criticism?

[terryl965]

Lets see, can I take criticism. Why have you heard other wise if so they are lying. The head of all Soke council is always telling me I am hearing things from people that are not true. And you know they are honest up standing people.

 

[kidswarrior]

Lets see, can I take criticism. Why have you heard other wise if so they are lying. The head of all Soke council is always telling me I am hearing things from people that are not true. And you know they are honest up standing people.

Would said Head Soke be that guy who posted right above you? I mean, it's in his sig line.

 

[terryl965]

Would said Head Soke be that guy who posted right above you? I mean, it's in his sig line.

Yes and I am now the grand poobay of all soke for my criticism of no-one and excepting everyone for the soke they are.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think Phoenix aimed us at a critical (yeah, general linguistic pun attack !) distinction between words intended only to pick fault and those intended to instruct.

Kacey followed this up very well, beating me to it, when she said that the first, harshly critical statement gave the student nothing to work with. It only told them they weren't doing something right. The second, guiding, statement served to show the student where and how they could improve.

I don't recall the empty-handed arts being quite so obsessed with millimetre precision as the sword arts are {or maybe that's just me :lol:} but I found in the decade or so of Kung Fu I did that you never, ever, stopped learning and improving. As many have said already, if your instructor stops helping you then it's time to worry .

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kacey followed this up very well, beating me to it, when she said that the first, harshly critical statement gave the student nothing to work with. It only told them they weren't doing something right. The second, guiding, statement served to show the student where and how they could improve.

Then it would very much depend on what you considered harsh. I have seen students get insulted because you dare correct their hand position. I have seen people get huffy because a Sifu who has been doing the art they are there to learn from him for over 50 years had the audacity to correct their form. I have also seen a Sifu almost fall on the ground laughing because after much correction a student was still doing the form wrong. And I have learned multiple times that I was doing something wrong and corrected it because a Sifu pretty much knocked me to the ground.

You can learn a lot without any verbal comment and you can learn a lot form a harsh comment as well. If nothing else you can learn if you really want to learn this from this Sifu or not. It is when I started watching what my taiji Sifu was trying to show me and not be so dependent on verbalization and looking for praise that I really started to learn actually.

Like I have already said here, I was asked by one of my Sifu’s if I was serious or just playing. And told if I am serious I need to work harder and if I am playing we were done training. There was no other comment made and no other information was given, I had to ask and I was then told what I needed to do. IMO it is not up to him to coddle me it is up to me to find out and ask.

 

[Kacey]

Then it would very much depend on what you considered harsh. I have seen students get insulted because you dare correct their hand position. I have seen people get huffy because a Sifu who has been doing the art they are there to learn from him for over 50 years had the audacity to correct their form. I have also seen a Sifu almost fall on the ground laughing because after much correction a student was still doing the form wrong. And I have learned multiple times that I was doing something wrong and corrected it because a Sifu pretty much knocked me to the ground.

So have I... and I had a parent withdraw a student from my class because I told him that his kick was good, but could be better if he changed one thing - because the class wasn't providing the "safe and nurturing environment my son needs". The boy was 8, and still burst into tears anytime anyone suggested he change what he was doing, no matter how gently - and mom would wade in and defend him, usually by yelling at the person who was doing the suggesting and then pulling him from the activity. it wasn't harsh in the slightest - in fact, given comments she'd made in the past, it was as mild as I could make it and still let him know something needed to change - but in her mind, I was being mean and nasty to her little boy, when all I was really doing was trying to get him to kick with the correct part of his foot, so he wouldn't hurt himself when he actually hit something.

As I said earlier in this thread, "An instructor's purpose is to help someone improve; a student's job is to improve. Neither will happen without feedback." Feedback can come in all sorts of ways, and is intended to help the student make changes that will cause the student to practice correctly. How that feedback is given - whether oral or physical - can determine how it is accepted. So can the age, gender, experience, cultural background, and a host of other factors, on the part of both the student and the instructor.

You can learn a lot without any verbal comment and you can learn a lot form a harsh comment as well. If nothing else you can learn if you really want to learn this from this Sifu or not. It is when I started watching what my taiji Sifu was trying to show me and not be so dependent on verbalization and looking for praise that I really started to learn actually.

I don't think anyone ever suggested that all criticism had to be oral. I responded the way I did because it seemed to fit Jenna's original question. I walk around my class all the time moving a hand, foot, head, torso, etc. into a different position - because it's much more effective in many cases that demonstration or oral comments. I do a lot of demonstration for the same reason.

Like I have already said here, I was asked by one of my Sifu’s if I was serious or just playing. And told if I am serious I need to work harder and if I am playing we were done training. There was no other comment made and no other information was given, I had to ask and I was then told what I needed to do. IMO it is not up to him to coddle me it is up to me to find out and ask.

I think this is a difference in style - communication style, rather than MA style, I mean. The best comment I get from my sahbum is when he watched what I'm doing, nods slightly, and goes on to the next person without saying anything. If I correct someone and they go right back to whatever they were doing wrong, with no sign that they've taken in the feedback, I'll go on to someone who makes a change (even if it's not what I want) when I correct something - because that person is paying attention. If I have to say the same thing more than 3 times... I'll provide feedback to someone else, and the person who's not making changes can come ask me about it, because I'm not going to waste instructional time going over the same thing again and again and again with people who are listening when I do it. But some corrections can't be made through actions, just as some can't be made through words - that's why I use both.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So have I... and I had a parent withdraw a student from my class because I told him that his kick was good, but could be better if he changed one thing - because the class wasn't providing the "safe and nurturing environment my son needs". The boy was 8, and still burst into tears anytime anyone suggested he change what he was doing, no matter how gently - and mom would wade in and defend him, usually by yelling at the person who was doing the suggesting and then pulling him from the activity. it wasn't harsh in the slightest - in fact, given comments she'd made in the past, it was as mild as I could make it and still let him know something needed to change - but in her mind, I was being mean and nasty to her little boy, when all I was really doing was trying to get him to kick with the correct part of his foot, so he wouldn't hurt himself when he actually hit something.

As I said earlier in this thread, "An instructor's purpose is to help someone improve; a student's job is to improve. Neither will happen without feedback." Feedback can come in all sorts of ways, and is intended to help the student make changes that will cause the student to practice correctly. How that feedback is given - whether oral or physical - can determine how it is accepted. So can the age, gender, experience, cultural background, and a host of other factors, on the part of both the student and the instructor.



I don't think anyone ever suggested that all criticism had to be oral. I responded the way I did because it seemed to fit Jenna's original question. I walk around my class all the time moving a hand, foot, head, torso, etc. into a different position - because it's much more effective in many cases that demonstration or oral comments. I do a lot of demonstration for the same reason.


I think this is a difference in style - communication style, rather than MA style, I mean. The best comment I get from my sahbum is when he watched what I'm doing, nods slightly, and goes on to the next person without saying anything. If I correct someone and they go right back to whatever they were doing wrong, with no sign that they've taken in the feedback, I'll go on to someone who makes a change (even if it's not what I want) when I correct something - because that person is paying attention. If I have to say the same thing more than 3 times... I'll provide feedback to someone else, and the person who's not making changes can come ask me about it, because I'm not going to waste instructional time going over the same thing again and again and again with people who are listening when I do it. But some corrections can't be made through actions, just as some can't be made through words - that's why I use both.

Oh sure JUST take the wind out of my sails, I came here for an argument!

I do believe we agree. :asian:

It could also be I have spent too much time training with Chinese guys, I could go more into that but then it would go WAAAAAY off post.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Absolutely not. Just because someone offers something to you, doesn't mean you have to accept it. If someone offered you poisen...would you eat it? The advice of someone you don't respect, especially if it is non-constructive or comes from a place of ill intent, is, for lack of a better word...'klesha'.

If you don't respect someone, don't let their opinions shape you in any way. Besides, until you are at a certain point (presumablely where you can discern whether or not advice/correction is useful), you should only listen to your primary teacher anyway.

Why don't you respect them?
Sean

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

I had tough time when I first started training seriously. My instructor would really put pressure on us really bad. He'd try to sweep our legs to test that we were in Neko Ashi right and if we ever came out of stance without him saying so it was pushup for punishment. Don't get me wrong, I'm saying the guy was a troll or an gre, he's probably the softest and most likable guy you can meet. I never understood it too much at the time, but it built character and it forced you to realise your mistakes when you were too exhausted to think or (in the case of 'difficult' students) too ignorant or big headed to take it in. Later on in life I joined the army and when people were breaking down in fits of tears and they couldn't cope, I was fine. The fact is, all through life you're going to get folks giving you some severe criticism. Sometimes it's pointless criticism that they dish out just to inflate their ego. But sometimes, as should be the case with a good instructor, they strike a balance that measn you get the right amount of help with the technique and that appreciation and resilience to failure.
Does that make sense? It seemed to soud better in my head.....:whip:

 

[harlan]

I'll assume this is directed towards the original poster.

Why don't you respect them?
Sean

But to toss it back at you...isn't this basically another version of the question (asked before) of 'should one learn MA from a teacher one doesn't respect?' Most people think it's okay to train with someone with superior technique and knowledge but with poor character. I don't. I think one should be extremely picky about the company one keeps...and look for a teacher that has acceptable, if not stellar, character to learn from. Lots of MAists like to seperate technique from intent...but I think a whole lot of stuff comes along for the ride. Good and bad.

So, assuming the original poster doesn't respect someone for a very good reason...I say 'No'. One can be polite...but not accept.

 

[ChingChuan]

At first, I couldn't really 'take' criticism... When my instructor /teacher corrected me, I was always feeling very bad because I thought I'd never become better at it... But slowly I came to understand that criticism is really useful and now it doesn't bother me at all anymore.

Perhaps this was also because I wasn't used to receiving critique on my performance... Of course, sometimes teachers told me off for doing something in school, but I wasn't used to someone looking at how I do something and commenting on it.

Well, I've read the posts in this topic and I'm wondering - have we grown soft or something? When a technique is wrong, it's wrong - there's no other way to phrase it, is there?
When my Pencak Silat teacher says 'you stance is incorrect' or 'you're doing it completely wrong', he isn't trying to inflate his own ego - he's just saying that I'm doing it wrong and need to correct my mistakes.
Also, half of the iaido lessons consists of getting comments and tips on your performance - the other half is spent on trying to correct your mistakes. If sensei were to phrase each remark in a very nice and gentle way, it'd take quite some time... If my sword is in the wrong angle, it just is... I know that my teachers aren't trying to offend me personally and so I'm not offended if they phrase their comments on a - to some of you - 'destructive' way...

I mean, it has become somewhat fashionable to put everything across on the most positive way possible... At school sports competitions, sometimes 'everyone gets a prize' - not only the winner - just to keep everyone happy etc... Teachers aren't allowed to tell students off - they need to 'ask politely' etc. etc. It seems as though childeren aren't allowed to be disappointed / offended etc - even if it's 'for their own well being' - and thus we create adults who can't distinguish between a well meant but honestly phrased remark...

I mean - of course, it's not nice when told that your technique is 'weak and ineffective' but a proper teacher will show you how to improve it. A remark like 'well, you did it quite well, but in order to make it more effective, you should do x' - has the same meaning, hasn't it? It's only phrased 'softer' - what's the advantage of that?
If a technique isn't effective, it's usually not 'quite well performed' as well... A teacher knows when something is not right and should be allowed to say that as clearly as possible...

I'm absolutely against verbal abuse etc. - criticism shouldn't be 'allowed' to be used that way. But I don't have any problems with teachers who don't hesistate to tell me clearly that I'm doing something wrong...

 

[Jenna]

Hey ChingChuan I can see your points in your post but..

I'm wondering - have we grown soft or something? When a technique is wrong, it's wrong - there's no other way to phrase it, is there?

is that not a rather facile way to look at harsh criticism my friend? If a senior master of yours - someone revered and venerated - begins to preface his critique of your technique with "that looks quite amateurish, but.." or "if you were a beginner I would overlook it, but.." Would your opinion change? I dunno. I just find that tactless in a private 1-2-1, let alone in an open hall. Maybe we are over sensitive and touchy nowadays. But then this ain't feudal times. Is a master to be excused for tactlessness simply by virtue of his rank above you, and which is nothing more than his having begun his training before you? Sorry *rant* And but I wonder is harshness a Japanese thing? I do not think so really. I am well lost. One-way respect between master and student is quite improper and but it does happen. I have seen this on more than one occasion. When I gave tuition, I never, absolutely never criticised with harsh intent. Students need a sense of success, no matter how advanced they may be. If I were ever to clash personality-wise with a student, I would surely not hide my feeling in a criticism of their technique. Pffft.. Maybe some guys have hormonal days too?
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Kacey]

Well, I've read the posts in this topic and I'm wondering - have we grown soft or something? When a technique is wrong, it's wrong - there's no other way to phrase it, is there?
When my Pencak Silat teacher says 'you stance is incorrect' or 'you're doing it completely wrong', he isn't trying to inflate his own ego - he's just saying that I'm doing it wrong and need to correct my mistakes.

I'm not saying it has to be phrased as above - although with some students it does (or with the parents of some students, anyway) - but just saying to a junior color belt - or even a senior color belt or a black belt - "this is wrong" does not give them anything to fix. It's hardest, of course, with a junior, because they have the least amount of information on which to draw in determining what is wrong - but as an instructor, I'd rather say "this foot position on this kick needs to be x instead of y" than "your kick is wrong" - the former gives the student something to work on, while the latter doesn't. How politely the statement "you need to change this" is made depends on the art, the instructor, and the age and experience of the students.

 

[TheShadow]

No.


:EG:

 

[ChingChuan]

is that not a rather facile way to look at harsh criticism my friend? If a senior master of yours - someone revered and venerated - begins to preface his critique of your technique with "that looks quite amateurish, but.." or "if you were a beginner I would overlook it, but.."

Well, I was referring to um, 'plain' criticism... Not to the abusive kind, but to the plain 'you're doing it wrong' kind. To me, it seemed as though some people can't take it when someone clearly tells them that they are wrong without adding a compliment or so to keep them from being offended...

Would your opinion change? I dunno. I just find that tactless in a private 1-2-1, let alone in an open hall.

Perhaps it would... For instance, in Iaido, there are really certain 'mistakes' that lower levels are 'allowed' to make, but which are really prohibited for higher ranks people.
But I agree, that's not the correct way to criticize someone, though it might help to explain why such a mistake was never corrected / emphasized before...

Is a master to be excused for tactlessness simply by virtue of his rank above you, and which is nothing more than his having begun his training before you? Sorry *rant*

Well, no . I didn't say that that was allowed... But a master shouldn't be 'forced' to 'dress' his comments in silk (is that an English expression?) in order to keep his students... It's a bit of a two way connection - the teacher shouldn't verbally abuse his students or make them feel worthless, but the student ought to understand that a teacher is only trying to make you learn when he criticizes you...

but just saying to a junior color belt - or even a senior color belt or a black belt - "this is wrong" does not give them anything to fix.

Yes, that's true - and that's why an instructor should always say how you can make it right. (my instructors always do this). However, I don't see why it's necessary to almost 'hide' the fact that something is wrong...
Saying 'This is wrong - look at how i'm doing it, see, you were doing that and that is incorrect because so and so, but it has to be this way, because so and so' doesn't hide anything, but it might come across a little harsh, as everyone can see that you were wrong etc... But that's also a great way to learn - sometimes, when someone else is corrected, you notice that you were doing it the wrong way yourself... And it gives you more insight in your mistake as well...
However - there are also some instances in which you clearly know what's wrong when you're being corrected (like 'CC, your sword is pointing in the wrong direction' *CC realizes* 'OK, thanks'). That's also not very tactful, but it helps you to realize your own mistakes... And if you don't understand, it could be something like 'Oh, really?' and that's the cue for the teacher that you didn't get it, so he/she can start explaining.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ching, I think we could just be running into a very small linguistic problem of interpretation here.

From my view, the thread has been dealing with the fact that there are ways of applying corrective criticism that foster an instructional consequence and other ways that do nothing but tell a student what they did was not right without helping them find a way to do it right.

Like yourself, I study iai (MJER), with all it's hyper concentration on precision probably one of the more difficult arts to be a sensei in. I am now entrusted with helping with instruction and have been in the horrid situation of watching someone claw their way through a kata and thinking "NOTHING in that was right!".

If I just say to a student "No! That was rubbish!" what have they learned?

If I say "Okay. Not bad for a first go. When you are taking the first step and bring the hand to the sword, try to rotate the saya slightly anti-clockwise ..." then the beginnings of improvement have been planted.

That's what I think people are referring to in the thread when they are talking about not being critical. It isn't not saying the student is doing something wrong, it's saying it in a way that helps them not do it again.

 

[tshadowchaser]

As I said in an earlier post I received criticism every day from my instructor. Some was constructive, some was not but it was always there.
I never really understood why until I had been with him for a long time and then he told me that he demanded the best out of his students and would not accept anything but their best efforts.
One of his requirements for passing someone on their Black Belt Test was that he had to know how they would react to many situations and he had to be able to trust them with his life ( as he put it with a loaded gun standing behind him)

 

[harlan]

But I think the point we are straying from...was...did you respect him?

 

[Phoenix44]

Hey ChingChuan I can see your points in your post but..

But then this ain't feudal times.

Jenna brings up some really good points. The fact is, this is 2008, most of us aren't ninja, and our culture and sensibilities are different. And that's true in other aspects of our lives as well as martial arts.

That's not to say that students shouldn't be corrected, taught, or steered in the proper direction, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be taught in a modern, culture-specific way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's not to say that students shouldn't be corrected, taught, or steered in the proper direction, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be taught in a modern, culture-specific way.

Just as long as we understand that in some cases this means the art will not be taught as well as it could be by a teacher that was brought up taught and trained in a different cultural system.

I do not disagree with you but I also feel that to some extent it is the responsibility of the student to try and understand the culture that the style he/she trains comes from.

But with that said I will say my first Sifu had a major problem with training Americans when he first got here and he changed his ways at first and to be honest I was both happy and sad that he did.

He once told me he couldn't train Americans like he trained students in China. When I asked what was the difference his very first statement was "I can't hit an American if he makes a mistake" That part made me happy but his follow-up was " I also cannot train Americans as hard, they won't stay"

He proved the later statement in his Chen class where he had over 60 people sign up and he trained us very hard. It was a 1.5 to 2 hour class and the first half was all training and no form. By the end of the form there were only 6 of us left and he never taught that form again and he never taught a class that was greater than an hour again either.

He later took this WAAAAY too far in a bad direction and now he teaches garbage but that had more to do with his decision to take advantage of Americans and go for the cash

But I am going way off post so I will stop, my apologies to the OP :asian: