sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Exactly!
As Bruce so well put it.....
Physical conflict is about action, not high level thought.......conscious concepts like 'winning or losing' merely get in the way of effective action.
Can YOU Be Beaten?
- Thread starter Jenna
- Start date
As Bruce so well put it.....
Physical conflict is about action, not high level thought.......conscious concepts like 'winning or losing' merely get in the way of effective action.
Another excellent question. The only way you know that you've met this guy is after the fact, you are already in a situation where it's too late to do anything but fight, if you submit, you're dead, unless you're in a ring with a referee. This is no tme to panic. Time to stay calm and start thinking outside the box, and start thinking about survival. What's around you that you can use as a weapon? What environmental conditions can help you? Is there anything you can put between you to keep him from getting to you? Hopefully you would have noticed these things beforehand, but maybe there's a different way to use them, could the baricade become a weapon? Could a weapon become a distraction that allows you to escape? At that point your mind and mindset are the best weapons you have, so you train to keep them sharp.
At the risk of becoming a little 'martial arts mystic' on this, one of the things that my iai sensei takes pains for us to begin to understand and enact is to "be in the moment".
This entails not preparing for your next move before you have seen the affects of the current one and not to have a preconception of how things are going to turn out, for good or ill. This is hard to wrap your mind around as it at first sounds like "Don't have a plan" but what it fully evinces is the concept of not 'trapping' yourself by preconceived ideas of what you wish to happen. Instead, work with what does happen.
Under the mantle of such a mind-set, the scenario of meeting that no-longer-hypothetical somebody who can beat you, is not substantially different to a sparring match with a friend. It aids you in coping with the fear and stops you 'beating yourself' by having a fight schematic that doesn't pan out as you willed it.
This entails not preparing for your next move before you have seen the affects of the current one and not to have a preconception of how things are going to turn out, for good or ill. This is hard to wrap your mind around as it at first sounds like "Don't have a plan" but what it fully evinces is the concept of not 'trapping' yourself by preconceived ideas of what you wish to happen. Instead, work with what does happen.
Under the mantle of such a mind-set, the scenario of meeting that no-longer-hypothetical somebody who can beat you, is not substantially different to a sparring match with a friend. It aids you in coping with the fear and stops you 'beating yourself' by having a fight schematic that doesn't pan out as you willed it.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Then he's either going to die or I am.......there really is no complicated problem to solve. It's really pretty simple when you get down to it.
Reality has shown, time and again, that the single key ingredient to coming out on top in a life or death struggle is mindset.......if we accept that, then we are forced to accept the fact that fear of failure is an impediment to that fact......UNLESS the fear is utilized as a weapon in the sense of motivating us to action.
The truth is that there are people who, on paper, have exceptional skill, superior in fact.......who can easily fall victim to lessor men, with a GREATER desire to triumph.......skill and physical prowess are secondary matters in life or death conflicts.
Last edited:
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
The indomitable human spirit is no match for a lead pipe to the cranium.
It depends upon the arena where this opponent is met. If you are meeting him or her in the ring for an athletic competition, it is always best to go in confident. Ideally, in competition, one is paired with a competor of the same gender, weight, and approximate skill level as one's self.Is it prudent to admit there will always be an opponent capable of beating you?
Or does such an admission lessen your chances of defeating that opponent should you ever encounter him?
Thank you for reading
Always,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
If you are referring to an assailant, winning means surviving, not prevailing. So in that aspect, I am less concerned about whether or not I can out-fight the person and more concerned about avenues of escape and neutralizing his or her attacks (blocks, dodges, disarming, whatever).
In that scenario, what one does leading up to the attack often is more important than what happens afterward, as the former can sometimes (not always) prevent the attack from even taking place. This includes awareness and common sense.
I have no doubt that realistically, there are likely plenty of people who could beat a 42 year old desk jockey who trains in the evenings four days a week against other desk jockeys, dentists, and tradesmen and women who do the same. My goal is to get home alive, not win fist fights.
Daniel
Last edited:
BLACK LION
Black Belt
Even in this instance if I am thinking and able to move I have a chance...no matter what. All living things have a weakness and its your job to know what, where and how... Simple caveman gross motor tactics... If what you have isnt enough then use a tool that is...
Your weapon is your mind and if you give up there your body will follow...
If there is no way and all is lost... make a way. You are still thinking , breathing and moving then get it done...
If you dont believe in a higher power then now would be the time to start and maybe while you are at is ask for the strength to get the job done...
I am sure most if not all of us have either heard of the impossible or seen it... I have been in a few life/limb threatening situations to know that "principalities and powers" exist beyond human measure and comprehension... I understand that, embrace it and for that the path is lit and I am protected as I walk...
Its do or die Jenna... what you do or how you die... thats it...
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
The indomitable human spirit wacks the other guy before he has a chance to lead pipe him to the cranium.
OP
OP
@K-man, yes thank you for showing me that the opponent may also have reckoned with his own defeat. I would imagine this opponent was otherwise considered invincible and but yes I am with you.. Goodness I do not know how you have read my mind with what you said and but yes I understand too that he might well surprised at how long we had stood against him.. I am very grateful for your pov thank you my friend that all makes sense thank you 
xo..
~~~~
@Tez thank you for making your points and I understand what you are saying yes and I would imagine you have dealt with much of that kind of altercation.. I wonder can I ask you specifically a question please? What would you do in a situation where you are NOT permitted to tapout this opponent will not permit you to tapout, you know what would happen and but you are in so much pain the only thing you can think is to tapout? What would you do then? Thank you so much Janna xoxo
~~~~
@sgt_mac, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you
~~~~
@morph thank you my friend yes outside-the-box blue-sky thinking is laudable and a sign surely of a good fighter yes I agree and but you know sometimes all that is gone from you and you figure you can maybe take one more in the gut and you are finished then everything becomes desperate and thinking time has evaporated like a drip in the desert. Is there anything at all you can do to prevent the fulfilment of your own prophecy of potential defeat [for when we admit it, we simultaneously envision it I think it becomes like a prophecy, no?] I do not know if I am being so cogent I hope you follow what I am trying to present? Thank you even regardless, Jenna xo
~~~~
@Suke no sir we do not want you becoming martial arts mystic Meg then we have nothing to get hold of but puffs of protoplasm haha.. And but yes I follow what you are saying and thank you indeed.. Yes when it kicks off then thinking too many moves ahead puts us en route to a hiding I think. I would not disagree at all you are entirely correct and only I think the surprise is when you realise that THIS opponent is relentless relentless relentless not like sparring a friend you give him the time out sig and all is good. Would I dare to switch the track on you only a little detour and ask you what you would do then while you are going a few with your southern-style KF and your opponent ignores your T-sign to pause; bloodies up your face, ignores your plea you realise something has gone awry. This is the surpise moment you had not expected like some kind of nightmare and but you cannot ask why. Whoever this is, he is your match and better. You are feeling as if you have hit the bag until you have no more punches left. Now what are your options? That is maybe too much, you would maybe excuse me for that I am sorry I would still be wondering what you would do though? Thank you my friend you are always wise for counsel thank you Jenna xo
~~~~
@Daniel Sullivan, Daniel thank you for replying also and would you tell me how you think you would do then as a "42yo desk jockey" as you have said just there, if you are pushed into a corner by whomever this opponent is that by all other measures you would reckon as being a superior fighter. What do you do when your fight is not working? When even YOUR best techniques hard-drilled over the years are showing as second-rate against this opponent? What do you do? What extra can you bring to bear? Survival, yes, exactly that is how singleminded you are.. I do not know I am just being general I am sorry if this seems awfully contrived. Thank you again though either way, I am always grateful, Jenna
~~~~
@BLACKLION, thank you my friend you know I would appreciate what you are saying specially.. And I understand yes that all living things have a weakness that is more profound than you would know. Though it is asking too much that we apprehend the weakness in all things, having not met all opponents.. Yes I understand mind controls body that is the very point and but when body is beaten so much then mind cannot always stand up and shout "I AM STILL HERE!" And then is that it? Is that the end? What do you do? Tell me my friend because I know you are a fighter always. Can you imagine that you have met your match and you know it? He has everything over you. What do you do when every muscle and sinew and thought inside you is telling you that you are beat? I am sorry you would forgive me if that is just a dumb question I do not mean it to sound that way. Thank you your input is valuable you know Jenna xo
xo..~~~~
@Tez thank you for making your points and I understand what you are saying yes and I would imagine you have dealt with much of that kind of altercation.. I wonder can I ask you specifically a question please? What would you do in a situation where you are NOT permitted to tapout this opponent will not permit you to tapout, you know what would happen and but you are in so much pain the only thing you can think is to tapout? What would you do then? Thank you so much Janna xoxo
~~~~
@sgt_mac, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you
~~~~
@morph thank you my friend yes outside-the-box blue-sky thinking is laudable and a sign surely of a good fighter yes I agree and but you know sometimes all that is gone from you and you figure you can maybe take one more in the gut and you are finished then everything becomes desperate and thinking time has evaporated like a drip in the desert. Is there anything at all you can do to prevent the fulfilment of your own prophecy of potential defeat [for when we admit it, we simultaneously envision it I think it becomes like a prophecy, no?] I do not know if I am being so cogent I hope you follow what I am trying to present? Thank you even regardless, Jenna xo
~~~~
@Suke no sir we do not want you becoming martial arts mystic Meg then we have nothing to get hold of but puffs of protoplasm haha.. And but yes I follow what you are saying and thank you indeed.. Yes when it kicks off then thinking too many moves ahead puts us en route to a hiding I think. I would not disagree at all you are entirely correct and only I think the surprise is when you realise that THIS opponent is relentless relentless relentless not like sparring a friend you give him the time out sig and all is good. Would I dare to switch the track on you only a little detour and ask you what you would do then while you are going a few with your southern-style KF and your opponent ignores your T-sign to pause; bloodies up your face, ignores your plea you realise something has gone awry. This is the surpise moment you had not expected like some kind of nightmare and but you cannot ask why. Whoever this is, he is your match and better. You are feeling as if you have hit the bag until you have no more punches left. Now what are your options? That is maybe too much, you would maybe excuse me for that I am sorry I would still be wondering what you would do though? Thank you my friend you are always wise for counsel thank you Jenna xo
~~~~
@Daniel Sullivan, Daniel thank you for replying also and would you tell me how you think you would do then as a "42yo desk jockey" as you have said just there, if you are pushed into a corner by whomever this opponent is that by all other measures you would reckon as being a superior fighter. What do you do when your fight is not working? When even YOUR best techniques hard-drilled over the years are showing as second-rate against this opponent? What do you do? What extra can you bring to bear? Survival, yes, exactly that is how singleminded you are.. I do not know I am just being general I am sorry if this seems awfully contrived. Thank you again though either way, I am always grateful, Jenna
~~~~
@BLACKLION, thank you my friend you know I would appreciate what you are saying specially.. And I understand yes that all living things have a weakness that is more profound than you would know. Though it is asking too much that we apprehend the weakness in all things, having not met all opponents.. Yes I understand mind controls body that is the very point and but when body is beaten so much then mind cannot always stand up and shout "I AM STILL HERE!" And then is that it? Is that the end? What do you do? Tell me my friend because I know you are a fighter always. Can you imagine that you have met your match and you know it? He has everything over you. What do you do when every muscle and sinew and thought inside you is telling you that you are beat? I am sorry you would forgive me if that is just a dumb question I do not mean it to sound that way. Thank you your input is valuable you know Jenna xo
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Can you be beaten? ......only if they can catch us?
Escapeing is always the solutions....NIKE?
Aoha,
Escapeing is always the solutions....NIKE?
Aoha,
Nice post Jenna!
Do you mean tapping out in a competitive situation? If so the ref would have taken charge of the situation and stopped the fight before any serious damage would occur, it wouldn't be a case of your opponent not allowing you to tap, the ref would stop the fight.
If you mean when being attacked I doubt tapping is an option anyway and I think you'd either have to suffer the pain and get out of it however you could. Touch wood I've never had to find out.
Do you mean tapping out in a competitive situation? If so the ref would have taken charge of the situation and stopped the fight before any serious damage would occur, it wouldn't be a case of your opponent not allowing you to tap, the ref would stop the fight.
If you mean when being attacked I doubt tapping is an option anyway and I think you'd either have to suffer the pain and get out of it however you could. Touch wood I've never had to find out.
Assuming that this is self defense and not sport or competition:
Backed into a corner by a superior opponent: First things first: get out of the corner. By any means necessary, being cognizant of him going for any weapons, such as a gun. What happens next depends greatly on what he does. If I can get away, I get to a crowded place as quickly as possible and make a ton of noise in the process.
If in getting out of the corner, I incapacitate the attacker, so much the better. At that point, I call the police.
If it is sport or competition, I fight my best and make him work for his win. If in the process, I win, so much the better.
Daniel
In the circumstance you describe, Jenna then for me at least, being English and all that, then my only option would seem to be to make my defeat a glorious one.
If I can't escape, I can't reason with the opponent, there is noone to intervene and no weapons handy to even up the skill-gap, then (barring pure luck) I am going down. The only thing I can do in such a scenario is give a good account of myself such that my defeat is not a cause of shame to me.
As I said in an earlier post, the only certain way to fail is not to try - if I give in to the 'odds' then I am certain to lose, so I'll 'play' for the long game and see if the cards fall my way.
That's the retrospective rationale I give myself for that one real fight I occasionally bring up. They were going to "do me" anyway, so I had nothing to lose and everything to gain ... especially when that first fellow came at my face with a broken bottle. The odds seemed terrible and the environment likewise and yet I came out of it physically unscathed purely because I chose not to give in and used what I knew (including taking advantage of explosive surprise).
If I can't escape, I can't reason with the opponent, there is noone to intervene and no weapons handy to even up the skill-gap, then (barring pure luck) I am going down. The only thing I can do in such a scenario is give a good account of myself such that my defeat is not a cause of shame to me.
As I said in an earlier post, the only certain way to fail is not to try - if I give in to the 'odds' then I am certain to lose, so I'll 'play' for the long game and see if the cards fall my way.
That's the retrospective rationale I give myself for that one real fight I occasionally bring up. They were going to "do me" anyway, so I had nothing to lose and everything to gain ... especially when that first fellow came at my face with a broken bottle. The odds seemed terrible and the environment likewise and yet I came out of it physically unscathed purely because I chose not to give in and used what I knew (including taking advantage of explosive surprise).
@sgt_mac, thank you sir yes I agree entirely with what you are saying and but are you genuinely so blase bout either he or you going to die? Sometimes I would have that mindset whereby I would not care one way or the other and but instinct usurps even that mindset which - like you said - is also a high level thought [do not care if I live or die].. instinct takes over and we are forced to fight and suddenly we cannot consciously be so nonchalant. We HAVE to fight. We HAVE to survive. We cannot say we do not care. We DO care. And but we are being beaten. You already know that you can be beaten. How do you overcome the idea that THIS is IT? Thank you I would appreciate any reply you would give thank you
I think you misunderstood Jenna, or I did. Sgt_mac isn't being blase. There's nothing blase about that mindset, it is an acceptance that death is an inevitable part of life, and that someone is going to die in this situation, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure it's not me. I recognize that it may be, but it won't be easy, and there's a price to be paid one way or the other. It's making use of the adreneline and not accepting defeat as an option, even though it's a possibility.
If that next one to the gut doesn't kill you, then you've got a chance. If you fell there's nothing left to lose, it's amazing what kind of resources you can marshall, and what kind of possibilites show themselves to you. The only way that works is if you refuse to recognize that you're losing or accept that since, you are losing, anything you do is better than giving up.
My Tang Soo Do students are from the Queen's Royal Lancers, this is their cap badge, on it is their motto, Death or Glory and that's how it is. They lost soldiers last year in Afghanistan and are due out there again next Easter. No one wants to die but once you face the fact you are going to at some point anyway it tends to clear the mind and you just get on with it and fight!
Ah, but in high level MJER, in Oku iai, according to Haruna sensei, as youre hitting your first target, youre already looking and tracking the second target. You dont even see your first strike hit.
Not to be done in Seitei or Omori, especially with a shinken!
As for the OP, you do whatever you have to, and hope that its enough.
That is true to an extent (and I'm not going to dare disagree with Haruna sensei ).
What I am talking about above is the general concept of mushin when dealing with a singular opponent. Needless to say you bring all the layers of zanshin into play when there are multiples.
). What I am talking about above is the general concept of mushin when dealing with a singular opponent. Needless to say you bring all the layers of zanshin into play when there are multiples.
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
That is true to an extent (and I'm not going to dare disagree with Haruna sensei
What I am talking about above is the general concept of mushin when dealing with a singular opponent. Needless to say you bring all the layers of zanshin into play when there are multiples.
Ah, Cool.
blindsage
Master of Arts
I can definitely be beaten. If I am in a life or death situation, I don't care what the other persons 'skill' level is, I'm doing evrything I can to survive.
But I'm really not sure what you looking for here Jenna. You asked the question, a lot of people have given you really good answers from a diversity of viepoints, and you still have a "yeah but what if" for everyone. If you are completely outmatched physically in everyway and have no chance to survive? What answer are you looking for? "Stand up an take you defeat like a Samurai!" or "curl up in a weeping ball and pray." Where does your question lead? If you have no chance whatsoever no matter what you do, no matter how committed you are to survive and how quick witted and prepared you are for the scenario, then you die, unless the other person has mercy on you. What does admitting whether you can be defeated or not play in that scenario?
But I'm really not sure what you looking for here Jenna. You asked the question, a lot of people have given you really good answers from a diversity of viepoints, and you still have a "yeah but what if" for everyone. If you are completely outmatched physically in everyway and have no chance to survive? What answer are you looking for? "Stand up an take you defeat like a Samurai!" or "curl up in a weeping ball and pray." Where does your question lead? If you have no chance whatsoever no matter what you do, no matter how committed you are to survive and how quick witted and prepared you are for the scenario, then you die, unless the other person has mercy on you. What does admitting whether you can be defeated or not play in that scenario?
Similar threads
Latest Discussions
-
-
重心 Zhòngxīn center of gravity- Latest: Kung Fu Wang
-
-
-
-