Can you take criticism?

[ChingChuan]

Ching, I think we could just be running into a very small linguistic problem of interpretation here.

From my view, the thread has been dealing with the fact that there are ways of applying corrective criticism that foster an instructional consequence and other ways that do nothing but tell a student what they did was not right without helping them find a way to do it right.

(....)
That's what I think people are referring to in the thread when they are talking about not being critical. It isn't not saying the student is doing something wrong, it's saying it in a way that helps them not do it again.

Hm, but to me it seems as though some people perceive something to be 'destructive criticism' while it isn't... That was what I'm saying...

That's not to say that students shouldn't be corrected, taught, or steered in the proper direction, but there is no reason why we shouldn't be taught in a modern, culture-specific way.

But now we're talking about a society in which some people can't take criticism anymore. The example that Kacey gave us, speaks for itself - apparently, some people can't stand being corrected, even if it's done in the most gentle and caring method possible... If this 'modern culture-specific way' includes that you almost don't dare to say that it's wrong, well, then I wonder whether that's the right way...

As for the respect issue: I wouldn't trust the opinion of someone I don't respect... For me, respect is 'all-compassing', so if a teacher would have a very low moral standard, I wouldn't respect him, nor his teachings... Still, if he was the only one who was teaching that art or if he was exceptionally good I might still want to accept his criticism - but I don't think I'd want to train with such a person at all.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hm, but to me it seems as though some people perceive something to be 'destructive criticism' while it isn't... That was what I'm saying...

My thanks for clarifying that

. I'd assumed that that was what you meant and just wanted to head off any misinterpretations before things got too far down the road.


Some very good points made in the rest of that post too, particularly about how thin-skinned some have become about any form of correction :rei:.

 

[terryl965]

Can we stop critizising people, this thread is to crticle, critisism is overrated.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Can we stop critizising people, this thread is to crticle, critisism is overrated.

Will you STOP criticizing me, I can't take it anymore :tantrum: :uhyeah:

 

[shihansmurf]

One of my first instructors was very harsh, verbally, in his criticism. At the time I thought nothing of it and actually modled my own teaching style after his. I would push, berate, and outright disrespect a student all with the intent to "motivate them". Worse, I would scoff at teachers who didn't. I thought that I was showing "tough love".

A funny thing happened, though, I began to notice how much more effective their method was. Their students progressed faster than mine and they had less churn. Imagine that, people don't like to be treated like crap and disrespected in order to participate in a hobby.

So after I joined the Army and moved up a bit I got to attend leadership schools(PLDC and BNCOC) and I learned a bit about management styles I began to re-evaluate the manner in which I offered critique. I also took a few college classes on management which helped a lot. The next class that I tought I had much better results.

A couple of years ago I discovered Rob Redmond's 24fightingchickens site and was amazed at how much I learned about the proper way to coach a student. BTW I wholeheartedly reccomend Mr. Redmon's site to ALL teachers. It can only make you better.

Having said all the above, I can take criticism well(have a tough skin an all) but how well is dependent on many factors.

1.Do I respect the person doing the criticism?

2.Are they criticizing me or my performance?

3.What is the motivation for the person offering critique?

4.Is the conversation dyadic, or am I just supposed to nod in agreement to whatever the person is saying.

5.Will their critique actually help me improve, or will it just demean me?

For me the correct answers to the above questions are self-evident. Others may hold different views. I'll never train under someone like my first instructor ever again. I would hope that no one else would subject themselves to that sort of thing either. Thankfully I have made amends with the students that I tought in that manner. I'm gratefull for the learning experience.

Mark

 

[terryl965]

Will you STOP criticizing me, I can't take it anymore :tantrum: :uhyeah:

No I love to critizise

 

[Jenna]

No.


:EG:

Hey now Do not just leave me hanging like that! Hey I like succinctness and people of few words, but come on Bob's server here has infinite RAID capacity so I am told, so expound away

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[kidswarrior]

One of my first instructors was very harsh, verbally, in his criticism. At the time I thought nothing of it and actually modled my own teaching style after his. I would push, berate, and outright disrespect a student all with the intent to "motivate them". Worse, I would scoff at teachers who didn't. I thought that I was showing "tough love".

A funny thing happened, though, I began to notice how much more effective their method was. Their students progressed faster than mine and they had less churn. Imagine that, people don't like to be treated like crap and disrespected in order to participate in a hobby.

:bangahead:

I'll never train under someone like my first instructor ever again. I would hope that no one else would subject themselves to that sort of thing either. Thankfully I have made amends with the students that I tought in that manner. I'm gratefull for the learning experience.

Mark

Very big of you. In AA, we call that taking care of our side of the street, and it's a very freeing experience. :asian:

3.What is the motivation for the person offering critique?

Ahhh, a most important question. I have found the possible answers to be complex and myriad, and often not in all students' best interests. When a student discovers that a teacher does not have her or his best interests in mind, in my view it's time to move on--sooner rather than later.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Hello all you considered peeps I wonder can you take criticism of your performance? If so, how well?

I decided a long time ago that I was going to take criticism on my technical performance for the simple fact that I wanted to get better. I've been in Taekwon-Do for 22 years now and if I hadn't taken criticism on some level I don't think I would've improved as much as I have (and, yes, there is a loooong way for me to still go). I figure I put the time in to go to class to learn from two instructors who know much, much more than I do about Taekwon-Do so why wouldn't I tale their criticism?

Frankly, not only do I take my instructors' criticism for me but if I ever hear them correcting another student or if they address the class about something they see many people doing I try to see if that's something I can apply to myself. This was something I decided to do after one of my instructors told the class that it was what she did when she was training while my other instructor (her husband) taught and what she did while they were color belts coming up through the ranks under their original instructor.

Now, there have been times when people besides my instructors have critiqued me and my performance. In those cases if what they say is different from what I have been doing I will usually check with my instructors before adopting the method they've suggested (although I might practice it at the time if I am in their class).

I've been to some seminars with people who are phenomenal technicians and very high up in the ITF. With them I figure their input is what I've paid my money for!

Is there a point at which you feel criticism becomes harsh, insulting or personal? And if so, what is that boundary for you?

Well, yes there can be a point when this occurs, and when it does I think it's pretty easy to spot. Personal insults, for example, have no place in training, imho. This does not mean, however, that an instructor shouldn't point out errors or even say something like: "You're going to get yourself killed if you do things like that."

I have been very fortunate, however, in the fact that I have not once experienced any sort of personal insult or harsh treatment (aside from some hard training!) from my instructors.

I was talking to them a while back and they said part of their teaching philosophy was: "What if this person hasn't head a positive thing all day? The least I can do is give them some encouragement." But this sure doesn't mean they aren't going to let you know when you are doing something wrong or if they expect you to work harder They're just going to give you a compliment about something first or frame things like: "That's a good kick. Now try (for example) pivoting your base leg more."

One of the hardest times I had training was a couple years ago during a private lesson with my Master Instructor (he's a seventh dan). We were going over my 4th dan patterns and he was being very critical of my performance of Moon-Moo. There were several things he showed me that I had been doing wrong (not big things, but things I needed to improve nonetheless). I was thinking "Boy, there's a lot I need to work on." Then his wife (a 5th dan) came into the room and started observing me. That's when the real pain started! :lol: It was painful, but a good pain and at the end of the day I was better for it.

I know we should be open to criticism and but is it possible that we should close our ears to criticism from certain people even if they are higher ranked and vastly more experienced? I mean, have you a way to discern genuine criticism from something else?

If you're talking about the physical aspect of the martial arts, then a person's personal shortcomings may be irrelevant. Even if they are being a jerk or personally insulting it would be good (although not easy!) to try to take time to reflect on what they're saying and see if it has any merit. One of the points of the Student?instructor Relationship in Taekwon-Do says, "Never tire of learning. A good student can learn anywhere, any time. This is the secret of knowledge."

Pax,

Chris

 

[Grenadier]

Constructive criticism can certainly help someone. Two things we can consider:

1) How is the criticism being delivered? Someone who gives such criticism in a sternly rebuking manner may find his advice being discarded, as opposed to someone who delivers it in a more civil manner.

Think of it this way... How do you want your filet mignon steak being served? On a clean plate, delivered by a friendly waiter, or served on a garbage can lid by a foul-mouthed person in dirty, odorous clothes? Either way, you'll still get a nice steak, but there's something a bit unfavorable about the latter's presentation.


2) Is someone capable of taking a politely-delivered, appropriate batch of constructive criticism? If not, then perhaps the individual receiving such criticism needs to learn how to accept other people's criticisms without being overly sensitive.


Now, all of this being said, some teachers have some really good things to say, if a student can take things with several grains of salt. At the same time, though, the student shouldn't have to use so much salt, that he runs the risk of high blood pressure...

 

[shihansmurf]

Very big of you. In AA, we call that taking care of our side of the street, and it's a very freeing experience. :asian:

kidswarrior

Thanks. I hadn't really thought about it in those terms. I just don't like to carry a karma debt, so to speak.

Think of it this way... How do you want your filet mignon steak being served? On a clean plate, delivered by a friendly waiter, or served on a garbage can lid by a foul-mouthed person in dirty, odorous clothes? Either way, you'll still get a nice steak, but there's something a bit unfavorable about the latter's presentation.

Grenadier

This is really a great analogy.I intend on utilizing it when I'm training new instructors and NCO's.

It is an interesting bit of hubris that we engage in when we assume that by speaking down to someone that it will in any way build them up. One of the reasons, the only reason in all honesty, that people train in the martial arts is to experience growth. That growth can manifest itself as increased fitness, fighting skills, a widened circle of friends and associates, the ability to break boards(for those into that), increased self confidence, or what have you. All of those are examples of growth. We, consiously or unconsiously, set goals for ourself and strive to achieve them. While we all need guidence, we don't need to be set back in our growth by someone breaking us down.

Just my .02
Mark