Can YOU Be Beaten?

[sgtmac_46]

I guess the simplest point to be made is this ONE question......

When faced with the moment of truth......what SINGLE PROFIT does it get you to wonder 'Can I lose?'.......note that doesn't mean BEFORE hand when the situation can be avoided, but when confronted by the moment of truth, what does fear and indecision profit you?

Answer: NOT A DARN THING!


The problem is that there seems to be a difference of opinion on who we should study to learn how to respond to situations........one camp says we should study those who FAILED, and emulate them..........I find this wrong headed........we should emulate those who SUCCEED and TRIUMPH in these situations.

 

[Jenna]

I want to thank you all for your learned and insightful contributions and but no please why is there so much bout meditating on inevitable death?? There is an odd amount on graceful acceptance?? I know all of these concepts already I have read Hagakure after seeing Jarmusch's Ghost Dog years gone by. I do not know why there is so much bout it being glorious to die, it is not! For those who have to face death as part of their day-to-day, whether they were ancient samurai or are modern-day military personnel, they are not glorious bout death and but rather have reconciled their outlook to the very real possiblity of their demise in action. It may be hidden amidst ostentatious mottos and glorious bravado and but that is merely a human coping mechanism. Like when a man loses his sight he will ennumerate all the wonderful things he would not have been able to sense had he good vision. And but that is a way of reconciling an outlook to a dire situation. It is a way of COPING and nothing else!

That is not the same thing for these purposes. If you are faced with an opponent that has you bettered in every way, then to say, "This will be my glorious death," is I think an inane notion! Even when every bone in your body is crying, "!I have had enough and I am ready to submit!" still there is that hardwired instinct to survive that supercedes and CAN preserve you. All I was asking was how does it work though it has taken me this long to figure my question.

So when you say it is prudent to admit to an opponent capable of defeating you, it is NOT prudent unless you also consider, in tandem, the possibility of your death therein. And admitting the possibility of your defeat may thus become a self-fulfilling prophecy because it brings your BREAKING point; your SUBMIT point so much closer to you!

If instead, you eschew the idea of an opponent that can defeat you, then if you are unfortunate enough to meet that opponent perhaps you will have an extra layer of psychological armour or a burst of preserving energy that may be somehow called into play at the erstwhile moment you began to feel that irresistable urge to quit and surrender and submit.

For some maybe it is enough to have admitted the potential for their defeat knowing they would be sent off with a laudatory eulogy and but that is a tragedy in the true sense that they had not been able to contribute and enjoy their longest fullest life. Eulogy is for the deceased. Me I would rather live.

And I am sorry if that is a rant. I did not mean to upset anybody with this importunate thread.
Jnna xo

 

[Tez3]

No one wants to think they've died for no reason so all the mottos, battle honours etc do actually mean something. It's a lot more than brain washing but it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.Talk quietly to the soldiers here and they will tell you the pride they feel in their mates and their regiments, I've never heard a soldier talk of his death with resignation at all, humour yes but never resignation. Most actually think they won't be killed, that's the survival mechanism.
The glory and the honour of it comes for the families, when our student was killed in Aghanistan, his parents took comfort in the fact he went beravely, that he died for his country and the regiment his father and grandfather had been in.
I think perhaps the concept of the British regiments is not understood by many, it's more than just an army unit, it's family often as not literally.

The soldiers for the most part are very young and the young think they will never die. Age brings more and more thoughts about death as you creep closer and closer inevitably towards the end so I guess it's different perhaps when you've lived a good deal of your life and can recognise that point when it's time to give in gracefully when you are beaten either by illness or an attacker. It's easier to slip away when you've lived. It doesn't mean you have to of course but if beset by crippling illness and incessant pain it's easier to decide that enough is enough and go without regrets. If you are young and haven't lived how hard that must be.

Jenna please don't apologise for expressing your opinion! We like hearing from you!

 

[Ken Morgan]

No one wants to think they've died for no reason so all the mottos, battle honours etc do actually mean something. It's a lot more than brain washing but it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.Talk quietly to the soldiers here and they will tell you the pride they feel in their mates and their regiments, I've never heard a soldier talk of his death with resignation at all, humour yes but never resignation. Most actually think they won't be killed, that's the survival mechanism.
The glory and the honour of it comes for the families, when our student was killed in Aghanistan, his parents took comfort in the fact he went beravely, that he died for his country and the regiment his father and grandfather had been in.
I think perhaps the concept of the British regiments is not understood by many, it's more than just an army unit, it's family often as not literally.

The soldiers for the most part are very young and the young think they will never die. Age brings more and more thoughts about death as you creep closer and closer inevitably towards the end so I guess it's different perhaps when you've lived a good deal of your life and can recognise that point when it's time to give in gracefully when you are beaten either by illness or an attacker. It's easier to slip away when you've lived. It doesn't mean you have to of course but if beset by crippling illness and incessant pain it's easier to decide that enough is enough and go without regrets. If you are young and haven't lived how hard that must be.

Jenna please don't apologise for expressing your opinion! We like hearing from you!

I always found military people, something that was certainly drilled into us, was to look after buddy. That’s why military units ideally become cohesive groups, willing to do anything for the guy beside you. You always remember who helped you out and who didn’t. Its never been about glory, its always been about not letting buddy down.

 

[Tez3]

I always found military people, something that was certainly drilled into us, was to look after buddy. That’s why military units ideally become cohesive groups, willing to do anything for the guy beside you. You always remember who helped you out and who didn’t. Its never been about glory, its always been about not letting buddy down.

Exactly, I believe Canadian regiments are the same as ours.
Here they are based on geographical areas so the soldiers all come from the same place, they marry each others sisters, daughters (and sometimes wives lol) sons and brothers join up so they are a very cohesive group. They've been doing this for centuries now so the regiments battle honours and history become very important to them, gives them bragging rights over other regiments lol which they do love to fight.
The glory comes after the battles when the survivors mourn the fallen, when they are fighting it's 'die you bastards' though I have to say that watching a firefight on the television the other day between the Taliban and a Royal Marine unit, the two Commandos while shooting back and dodging the bullets were actually discussing what video to watch when they got back to camp so maybe that knocks all our fine theories into a hat!!

 

[morph4me]

Jenna, I'm not sure where you're seeing graceful acceptance. There are certain realities when it comes to these things.

Reality #1 Everyone dies. It's the only thing you can be absolutely sure of in life. If you're born, you will die. It's a fact. Whether you choose to accept it or not, whether you choose to think about it or not, it's going to happen.

Reality #2 Everyone can be beaten by someone. It may never happen, you may never meet the person who can do it, but you have to accept that he's out there somewhere. It can be someone you'll never meet, it could be your significant other, it could be your neighbor or best friend. Just because he exists, doesn't mean you'll ever have to find out who it is, and it doesn't mean you'll ever have to face him. It also doesn't mean that on any given day you can't beat him. As long as you're alive there is always a chance.

Acceptance does not equal defeat. You can accept these realities, gracefully or otherwise, or you can choose not to accept them, and worry about things that may never happen, or delude yourself into thinking your invulnerable.

As Tez said

it is important for soldiers to feel that their death will mean something, that they will live on in people's memories.

Nobody wants to die, you do what you can to live your life and make it count for something, because you know it's going to happen. You don't go into situations because you want to die gloriously, you go into situations because you are the best chance to change an outcome, save a life, or many, because you make a choice that it's something that has to be done. You go into situations because someone is doing something you find unacceptable and you have to do something to change it, and if you die doing that, your life will not have been wasted.

Don't apologize for your opinions, or questions, this is a great thread, it's given us all alot to think about.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Exactly, I believe Canadian regiments are the same as ours.
Here they are based on geographical areas so the soldiers all come from the same place, they marry each others sisters, daughters (and sometimes wives lol) sons and brothers join up so they are a very cohesive group. They've been doing this for centuries now so the regiments battle honours and history become very important to them, gives them bragging rights over other regiments lol which they do love to fight.
The glory comes after the battles when the survivors mourn the fallen, when they are fighting it's 'die you bastards' though I have to say that watching a firefight on the television the other day between the Taliban and a Royal Marine unit, the two Commandos while shooting back and dodging the bullets were actually discussing what video to watch when they got back to camp so maybe that knocks all our fine theories into a hat!!

Sorry Jenna, way off topic.

You’ll get a kick outta this TEZ. About a year ago I posted some of my Grandfathers military photo’s up on my blog, http://guelphfirst.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html
This week a gentleman in N.Ireland contacts me and has found his grandfather in one of the photo’s, (The Malta 1908 one). 101 years later, and the guy gets a photo of his grandfather. I thought that was so cool.

Again…Sorry Jenna

 

[Tez3]

I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive.
Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.

 

[morph4me]

I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive.
Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.

Equally dangerous for enemies or allies, these are the kinds of people that get their friends killed too.

 

[BLACK LION]

I've heard it said that warriors are separated from everyone else in that, in the back of their mind, they perversely hope to be confronted by forces so much greater than themselves, that their defeat itself is glorious. <<< THESE ARE SIG WORTHY WORDS...

It's a tremendous cliche, to be sure, but that's the real, ultimate test they all have in the back of their mind........not whether I can triumph.......but can I, when faced with overwhelming odds, get back up one more time, keep my courage and my honor, and die an honorable death, struggling to the very last.

It's why we lionize the Spartan 300, the men at the Alamo, the jews at Masada.......we even admire our enemies in their tenacity to defend against overwhelming odds.

F----- awesome post SGT...

 

[BLACK LION]

@BLACKLION, thank you my friend you know I would appreciate what you are saying specially.. And I understand yes that all living things have a weakness that is more profound than you would know. Though it is asking too much that we apprehend the weakness in all things, having not met all opponents.. Yes I understand mind controls body that is the very point and but when body is beaten so much then mind cannot always stand up and shout "I AM STILL HERE!" And then is that it? Is that the end? What do you do? Tell me my friend because I know you are a fighter always. Can you imagine that you have met your match and you know it? He has everything over you. What do you do when every muscle and sinew and thought inside you is telling you that you are beat? I am sorry you would forgive me if that is just a dumb question I do not mean it to sound that way. Thank you your input is valuable you know Jenna xo

Sunday we worked on what to do when you are being "dominated"...
I was in one of these so called worst case scenarios yesterday in which my attacker had me face down and mounted... He put me in a leg and arm lock combo that I couldnt fight my wat out of with my body weapons nor escape from ... I was stuck and if I was a female I would have really been in the crapper in terms of ability to fight my way out... I couldnt do it at 5'11" 195... my attacker was 5' 9" 250 lbs with an extensive football and wrestling background... I was seemingly "beaten" ... I realized that this worst case scenario was a "fair fight" in that I want improvising or being "unfair enough"... out came my folder from my waistband and into the femoral artery it went over and over...
He said, "wait are you stabbing me"... I said "yes" ...I had no way of dominating him on the outside but perforate an artery on the inside and now I am in business....
I learned and I quote "THE TRUE WORST CASE SCENARIO IS A FAIR FIGHT".... take that for what its worth but it helps you to not only prepare mentall but physically... Like the ninjas and judo masters of old I adorm myself with random tools that can be accessed when needed... When I leave my home I dont just take the tools in my head and in my body...I take anything that I can legally carry or stash...
Methodically placed labor saving devices... or improvised force multipliers...

A big 300 lb maniac with a rapist whit is pinned on top of me and there is no perceivable escape... Scary... yes... Am I beaten??? sure, as long as I decide to play fair... out comes the metal or what have you...

I can be beat over and over again as long as I continue to play fair...this is why I train unfaily and unconventionally...

 

[zepedawingchun]

... Am I beaten??? sure, as long as I decide to play fair... out comes the metal or what have you...

I can be beat over and over again as long as I continue to play fair...this is why I train unfaily and unconventionally...

In a life or death situation, there is no such thing as fighting fair, only who survived and who died. And now-a-days, who knows when any altercation may be life or death situation.

 

[Jenna]

I have somethings to think about here thank you all that posted I am very grateful indeed.

I would just put one other addendum and which is why I asked the question at all.. and that is, sometimes the unbeatable "opponent" is not a person and but maybe a disease.

Sometimes you need to find extra in the tank somewhere somehow to make those last few miles. Does not matter what the "opponent" is, the principles of defence are alike.

And but I would never expect to hear that it was glorious to die, that is how we rationalise a loss; it is NOT how we push ourselves to survive against odds and statistics. And how can it ever be more glorious to die than it is to live?

Thank you everybodyfor your time and well-considered replies I love you all xoxo, Jnna

 

[BLACK LION]

I have to thank you Jenna for dragging this one out becuase it forced me to look at how even in a "fight for you life" in which you shouldnt play fair we end up overwhelmed by the fright "response" from being dominated and we could find ourselves not being unfair enough...
Maybe its more about being unprepared to be unfair... maybe its becuase of training done in a "comfort zone"...
No one plans on being a victim of a simulated stabbing or shooting after they are dominating someone on the mat or whatever during training... My guy didnt expect that our "worst case scenario" in which he was totally dominate over me that he would be stabbed in the leg from a blade he didnt know I had...
This has me thinking deeply about how much we perceive as a "comfort zone" even in training or as a trained "combatant"....
This topic has me digging deeper for the "comfort of denial" even where it seems non existent...
People walk around in thier own homes and although they may be trained and in thier comfort zone,they still have not afforded an "out" in case some un-conceivable sheet hits the fan... this carries on outside of the home and it gets worse since the "comfort zone" decreases to a 3' raduis around yourself if not closer...
Someone may be trained but not affording themselves an out regardless of where they are and what the perceived comfort level is.... wether its the gym shower or the neighbors house or a movie theatre whereever you are and whatver you are doing there should always be an out and basically a plan to kill every potential combatant outside the obvious non combatants...
Your true intentions are your most secret of weapons and should never be telegraphed or shown....
You should always seek to gain the unfair advantage in advance...asserting that you will meet a force beyond your strength but still made of flesh and bone and able to be dissasembled the same as any other...
This also lends to the article from Hatsumis translator about using whats around you as tools... multiply this with the tools you prepared ahead of time and now you are 3 times more potentially effective than without the multipliers...
I dont listen to people who tell me what I should and should not do or ask why I carry this or that or train to face things that couldnt happen...
I dont let anyone criticize preparation becuase it is vital to potential combat... Preparation is the martial way and no good warrior should ever wake and walk the path without the tools to destroy anything that stands in his way...


Long story short, anyone can be beat a thousand times over.. but you can only die once.... which one you prepare for is up to you...
The only difference is fair and unfair... a fair fight you prepare for with your ego... an unfair fight is one you prepare for with your life...
Can I be beat, sure...I have been plenty of times... My question in return and my only real concern is..... Can you kill me ???
Simply becuase I already know how I am going to kill them.... it just has not reached that point yet...

Never get caught in a fair fight or you may very well meet that "nightmare" opponent that you cannot best.... always prepare to be as violently unfair as possible and always have the tools handy to see it through...There is no such thing as a comfort zone that is just an excuse for not being prepared enough to face what is unexpected or unwarranted... Evil does not sleep so preparation is a 24/7/365 job....

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have to say too that running away works equally well for me, I don't worry about honour and being brave tbh, if running away does it that's for me. I'd rather be called a coward to my face than eulogies about how brave I was said over my dead body lol!

Kind of depends on what the consequences of running away are, doesn't it? If it means leaving your mates behind to do the fighting for you, it's a whole other story.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think too that we have to accept that many people, soldiers and fighters for example go into these situations because they enjoy them, the thrill of risking your life, living on the edge is a big turn on. Perversely, nearly dying makes you feel alive.
Quite often it's this type of person that you have to be careful about fighting with if they were to attack you. I know a couple of so called hard men who aren't actually hard in the accepted way, what they have is a complete disregard for consequences either for themselves or others, living or dying doesn't mean anything to them. Crazy men but very very dangerous.

We call those men 'warriors'......not EVERY soldier is a warrior.....in fact most soldiers probably aren't 'warriors' in the strictest sense of the word. The warrior is the rare exception to war. Most men fight because they have to, they fight for their buddies. A warrior fights because it's what he is.

One warrior in war is worth a dozen, even a hundred average 'soldiers'. The average person finds that concept 'crazy' because, deep down inside, they are troubled and intimidated by the very concept of a 'warrior'. It's understandable.

A soldier is one who does his job, he does it because he's told to, and he usually does it to the best of his ability. A warrior, on the other hand, does what he does because he's allowed to.

One can see the difference between the average soldier mindset and the warrior mindset by examining men throughout history. Omar Bradley was a 'Soldier'. George S. Patton was a 'warrior'. George B. McClellan was a 'soldier', Nathan Bedford Forrest was a 'warrior'.

 

[Live True]

I am very grateful for all your posts, even you naughty people mucking about in my classroom discussion! Yes I see you down the back there haha!!

Well yes I too had thought it prudent to admit; I too accept that it is statistically highly likely that there was an opponent harder and faster etc than I. In other words, yes, there is almost certainly someone out there who can take me..

Yet..

There are two things that bother me bout this:

1. If I have admitted that I can be beaten [no matter how probable] then have I not weakened my own psychological position from the get-go?

2. The other issue that bothers me quite a lot is what then am I supposed to do when I meet this opponent who has me matched and bettered blow-for-blow? What am I supposed to do then, having realised that THIS is the opponent we considered; that THIS is the opponent who is my defeater; that THIS is my Waterloo? Then what?

I would not for a moment suggest it wise to program ourselves into thinking that there is nobody who can beat us. What I am concerned about is what do we do when we meet this opponent that we KNOW; that we have ADMITTED to ourselves, we cannot possibly defeat?

Thank you all again,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Janna

All of the above assumes that you will 1)continually review the fact that there is someone out there who can beat you and 2) you will recognize that person the first time you meet them.

I think this is a concept one should consider, accept, and move on. Continually reviewing that you are fallible and human focuses on your weaknesses and is not productive. When you focuse on training for the joy of it or the "what if" scenario, then you are actively improving your odds of success and...hopefully...reducing the number of folks who are, indeed, better than you.

Also, even if you know you are against someone who is technically or physically better than you....if you are in a confrontation you were not able to avoid...do you really have a choice but to continue? I don't think a fight should be conceded because you know your opponents have superior fire power, etc. Everyone has bad days. Sheer grit and determination have won some battles. And..if you must lose, it would be better to have done your best than to given up prematurely.

As you said, it's a psychological concept and issue to a point. So don't let your psyche...psych you out. Accept the possibility and then move on to live and train as you would otherwise. After all, there is also the possibility we can be struck by lightening, but to live your life in fear and avoidance of such...would lessen the quality of your life and not significantly reduce the possibility of it happening.

I hope that didn't get too far off the topic and addressed your questions!

 

[Tez3]

We call those men 'warriors'......not EVERY soldier is a warrior.....in fact most soldiers probably aren't 'warriors' in the strictest sense of the word. The warrior is the rare exception to war. Most men fight because they have to, they fight for their buddies. A warrior fights because it's what he is.

One warrior in war is worth a dozen, even a hundred average 'soldiers'. The average person finds that concept 'crazy' because, deep down inside, they are troubled and intimidated by the very concept of a 'warrior'. It's understandable.

A soldier is one who does his job, he does it because he's told to, and he usually does it to the best of his ability. A warrior, on the other hand, does what he does because he's allowed to.

One can see the difference between the average soldier mindset and the warrior mindset by examining men throughout history. Omar Bradley was a 'Soldier'. George S. Patton was a 'warrior'. George B. McClellan was a 'soldier', Nathan Bedford Forrest was a 'warrior'.

It may not be politically correct but the majority of males joining our army do so to fight, they like fighting. Often soldiers are told to be quiet when the press is around because in this day and age to have soldiers say they can't wait to fight isn't what the government wants on the front pages of newspapers but it's true though, talk to any squaddie around my way and they love to fight. It has connotations of course as they also like to 'street' fight and do frequently, we have an army of brawlers lol! We have the Gurkhas here too, nice polite chaps but oh dear get the light of battle in their eyes and they are off, like the killers they are. There's two sides of me in this, one that I admire fighting spirit, I too like to fight and the other side that says 'oh no, this just isn't right'. It's had to reconcile the two sides sometimes.
I suppose it's like the attraction of MMA, it can be fantastic fighting when everythings going your way and you feel really alive with that sweet feeling of being otherworldy I suppose, I can't describe it sorry! and there's the thing of course that it's barbaric doing this and feeling so elated while doing it. Even if you lose that feeling is still there after all there's always another day!
The soldiiers I know think we shouldn't be in Afghanistan but they also relish the fighting and the aliveness it brings when you survive. We have them volunteering to go back time and time again. I think it's a deep primitive gut feeling that has been suppressed, maybe rightly, in modern life. the ones who have problems are the mdics who have to patch them up, they do heroic work perhaps not always recognised. With them is perhaps the truth of war.
I do know though it's something that we may all need to figure out for oursleves. Many people post on here that they enjoy fighting but are then shouted down by the martial artists that think fighting is uncivilised. They are both right of course. It's the elation of it, not the killing of course but something is there.perhaps it's a romantic thing?
Of course many battles are just sheer hell, the first World War but in that war the armies were conscipts now they are volunteers.
Perhaps this conundrum needs a thread of it's own? I'll have a think but must get to bed now as up early in morning.

 

[Tez3]

Kind of depends on what the consequences of running away are, doesn't it? If it means leaving your mates behind to do the fighting for you, it's a whole other story.

hell if your mates are there you can fight back to back! In fact looking at some of my mates they probably started it lol (half joking!)

 

[Jenna]

Dear Shana thank you as always for your post with your insights.

And you said..

I don't think a fight should be conceded because you know your opponents have superior fire power, etc.

Will you tell me then please when do you think such a fight should be conceded?
Thank you
Jnna xoxo