Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?

[Hanzou]

Despite what some people might think, learning self defence does not require full contact sparring to be effective. It is certainly an option but is is not essential. I know plenty of people who have not done full contact sparring that are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

Yeah, we have to agree to disagree on that one. Its like saying a woman who grapples with a mannequin would be as proficient as a woman who grappled with large men who were all trying to submit her. I just don't buy that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, we have to agree to disagree on that one. Its like saying a woman who grapples with a mannequin would be as proficient as a woman who grappled with large men who were all trying to submit her. I just don't buy that.

And again, not the same thing.

 

[Zero]

Aren't most women participating in martial arts for self protection and exercise?

Doubt it (particularly these days), perhaps not even on the exercise level, there's more fun and probably more fitness to be gained from a Zumba workout.
Most of the gals at my old club were training to collect medals in tournaments and were focused on competition and more so re kumite than kata.

The higher levels were bloody good kickers and I used to get popped in the head by them.

That said, and despite what has been said by others previously on this post, in general when you put an average sized male against an average sized female of equal skill and experience and other key factors against each other, I would say 8.5 - 9 out of 10 times, the male will win. Why is it hard to accept that a stronger opponent of equal ability will generally defeat a weaker opponent. I am of course keeping mental conditioning or desire/drive out of the equation.

There are differing views on the subject but most studies these days seem to indicate that overall, male and female muscle is the same, ie in itself male muscle is not denser than female muscle. That said, males do have a greater percentage of skeletal muscle mass and so that in itself makes a man of equivalent height, stronger and with greater power output. I have seen other studies indicating that men are better at producing power and increasing strength under training but that females recover from training quicker and better and may be able to perform longer (I mean that in a plutonic context). That's why all us fellas and sheilas out there gotta quit all this fighting nonsense and just work on stuff together and be friends, we complement each other perfectly.

 

[Tez3]

Doubt it (particularly these days), perhaps not even on the exercise level, there's more fun and probably more fitness to be gained from a Zumba workout.
Most of the gals at my old club were training to collect medals in tournaments and were focused on competition and more so re kumite than kata.

The higher levels were bloody good kickers and I used to get popped in the head by them.

That said, and despite what has been said by others previously on this post, in general when you put an average sized male against an average sized female of equal skill and experience and other key factors against each other, I would say 8.5 - 9 out of 10 times, the male will win. Why is it hard to accept that a stronger opponent of equal ability will generally defeat a weaker opponent. I am of course keeping mental conditioning or desire/drive out of the equation. and cheating! I don't fight fair, it's what makes me equal LOL!

There are differing views on the subject but most studies these days seem to indicate that overall, male and female muscle is the same, ie in itself male muscle is not denser than female muscle. That said, males do have a greater percentage of skeletal muscle mass and so that in itself makes a man of equivalent height, stronger and with greater power output. I have seen other studies indicating that men are better at producing power and increasing strength under training but that females recover from training quicker and better and may be able to perform longer (I mean that in a plutonic context). That's why all us fellas and sheilas out there gotta quit all this fighting nonsense and just work on stuff together and be friends, we complement each other perfectly.

Most often though it isn't like for like ie a 14st man against a 14st woman of equal height, it's all so variable. We can easily accept that on paper a larger person should win but then we see the smaller person win. It shows probably that the old saying it's not the size of the dog in the fight etc. Smaller people learn techniques that give them a bit of an edge, they get crafty. It depends on what style you study, how you study it, how often. How confident you are, whether you lift weights, whether you are a runner, so many things to take into consideration before you can really think who will win a fight. There's more that other people will think of, those are just of the top of my head.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Would you hit them hard to make them lose their temper or would you teach them to defend themselves? going 'soft' on women is demeaning to the women and cheating them out f learning to defend themselves properly.
I had one student who insisted he didn't hit women even when sparring, he wouldn't defend either to give me 'a chance' I said fine I have no compunction about hitting men. I broke his nose.

I'm late on this conversation, but I have to walk a fine line when training with women. The rules are, I get to cause all the pain I want, but I can't hurt them. As I progressed through the art that rule now extends to everybody!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, we have to agree to disagree on that one. Its like saying a woman who grapples with a mannequin would be as proficient as a woman who grappled with large men who were all trying to submit her. I just don't buy that.

If you can't see the difference between full contact sparring, controlled sparring, and a mannequin, then I'm not surprised that you don't buy it.

 

[Steve]

Would you hit them hard to make them lose their temper or would you teach them to defend themselves? going 'soft' on women is demeaning to the women and cheating them out f learning to defend themselves properly.
I had one student who insisted he didn't hit women even when sparring, he wouldn't defend either to give me 'a chance' I said fine I have no compunction about hitting men. I broke his nose.

You intentionally injured a training partner?


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[Touch Of Death]

You intentionally injured a training partner?


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I broke a guys arm to test his guard. It happens, but they asked for it to stop just happening. LOL

 

[Tez3]

You intentionally injured a training partner?


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No I did not intentionally injure a training partner, he refused to try to hit me and insisted he didn't need to keep his guard up because as a female I couldn't touch him, I punched him, his nose broke. If it were intentionally I would have followed through with a few more punches. You play the idiot and you get arrogant, this is what happens. He wasn't a training partner he was a student I was attempting to teach but for his attitude of 'no woman can teach me anything'.

 

[Steve]

Should we use the same tactic with children? After all men don't want to hurt children in class either.

Believe it or not but martial arts are not actually about hurting people. Self defence arts are about preventing harm, sport arts are about competing safely. If you are in a martial art to hurt people then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

We have an obligation to ensure that we are training in a safe manner. But, I would say yes. In a contact sport, kids should experience contact. On a wrestling team, kids experience pain and frustration. Same for any other contact sport or activity. Football, soccer, baseball, basketball. There should be a lot of sweat, a little blood, some tears of frustration from time to time, and a lot of joy and satisfaction. Balancing all of that is our obligation as coaches, teachers and mentors.

i think that tonyjw86 makes an excellent point, if poorly worded. There is a difference between coddling, pushing and bullying our training partners. Intentionally injuring a training partner, such as by breaking his nose, should never be condoned in a school. Accidents happen, of course. I broke my nose sparring with a guy at class (I took a knee to the nose as I was passing guard in sparring). But injuring people to teach them a lesson is pretty bad.

 

[Steve]

No I did not intentionally injure a training partner, he refused to try to hit me and insisted he didn't need to keep his guard up because as a female I couldn't touch him, I punched him, his nose broke. If it were intentionally I would have followed through with a few more punches. You play the idiot and you get arrogant, this is what happens. He wasn't a training partner he was a student I was attempting to teach but for his attitude of 'no woman can teach me anything'.

So, you lost your temper and broke a student's nose. Even after this explanation, it sure sounds like you had some intention of teaching this arrogant idiot a lesson.

 

[Tez3]

We have an obligation to ensure that we are training in a safe manner. But, I would say yes. In a contact sport, kids should experience contact. On a wrestling team, kids experience pain and frustration. Same for any other contact sport or activity. Football, soccer, baseball, basketball. There should be a lot of sweat, a little blood, some tears of frustration from time to time, and a lot of joy and satisfaction. Balancing all of that is our obligation as coaches, teachers and mentors.

i think that tonyjw86 makes an excellent point, if poorly worded. There is a difference between coddling, pushing and bullying our training partners. Intentionally injuring a training partner, such as by breaking his nose, should never be condoned in a school. Accidents happen, of course. I broke my nose sparring with a guy at class (I took a knee to the nose as I was passing guard in sparring).

Do not have a go at me, I didn't intentionally break his nose, it was his pride and his arrogance that made him not defend himself, who on earth doesn't defend themselves when sparring in a sparring class? I did not imagine that when he saw that I was punching he would actually stand there and allow a punch hit him, what sort of idiot would do that? His behaviour wasn't condoned, he was asked to leave by the chief instructor.

There is no 'excellent point' made by tonywhatsisface at all, he suggests that bashing a female until she loses her temper is the ideal way to teach a woman to fight, frankly that's bollocks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, you lost your temper and broke a student's nose. Even after this explanation, it sure sounds like you had some intention of teaching this arrogant idiot a lesson.

he wasn't protecting his face.

 

[ballen0351]

So, you lost your temper and broke a student's nose. Even after this explanation, it sure sounds like you had some intention of teaching this arrogant idiot a lesson.

Sounds to me like they were sparing he dropped his hands and caught one in the face and his nose broke. I didnt see anything to suggest she lost her temper. Perhaps your reading to much into things

 

[Tez3]

So, you lost your temper and broke a student's nose. Even after this explanation, it sure sounds like you had some intention of teaching this arrogant idiot a lesson.

Putting words into my mouth again? NO I did not lose my temper, I did not plan to teach him a lesson so wrong again mate. I frankly didn't give a rat's bum one way or another about him, I was asked to spar with him, he said he would spar but would neither hit nor defend, he was good enough he said that he could do that, so fine crack on sunshine, no skin off my nose to have an easy session. I threw the punch, he wasn't as good as he thought or had told me, end result a broken nose. If you chose to take my economy of words to describe something as meaning something it doesn't that's your problem, you weren't there, you aren't my chief instructor who saw everything and knew I hadn't done it on purpose so frankly.... up yours. sweetheart.

 

[Steve]

Do not have a go at me, I didn't intentionally break his nose, it was his pride and his arrogance that made him not defend himself, who on earth doesn't defend themselves when sparring in a sparring class? I did not imagine that when he saw that I was punching he would actually stand there and allow a punch hit him, what sort of idiot would do that? His behaviour wasn't condoned, he was asked to leave by the chief instructor.

There is no 'excellent point' made by tonywhatsisface at all, he suggests that bashing a female until she loses her temper is the ideal way to teach a woman to fight, frankly that's bollocks.

I think I understand you much better now, Tez. Your initial post was poorly worded, and open to being misunderstood. But now that you've explained what happened, I understand what you meant. I still think you bear some measure of responsibility, but I get that you didn't mean to break his nose.

I think we owe it to tonyjw86 to ask for some clarification. I don't think he meant what you think he meant, and cutting a new poster some slack isn't too much to ask. In an informal, written format like this, it's easy to be misunderstood. You're reading a lot into his post that I don't see at all.

he wasn't protecting his face.

For what it's worth, I see what happened. Frankly, though, I still think Tez is responsible, particularly as the instructor. I spar with arrogant idiots a lot, and even though they are idiots, I am still responsible if I damage them. If they don't have the good sense to tap, I don't just break their elbows.

Sounds to me like they were sparing he dropped his hands and caught one in the face and his nose broke. I didnt see anything to suggest she lost her temper. Perhaps your reading to much into things

Possibly so.

 

[Steve]

Putting words into my mouth again? NO I did not lose my temper, I did not plan to teach him a lesson so wrong again mate. I frankly didn't give a rat's bum one way or another about him, I was asked to spar with him, he said he would spar but would neither hit nor defend, he was good enough he said that he could do that, so fine crack on sunshine, no skin off my nose to have an easy session. I threw the punch, he wasn't as good as he thought or had told me, end result a broken nose. If you chose to take my economy of words to describe something as meaning something it doesn't that's your problem, you weren't there, you aren't my chief instructor who saw everything and knew I hadn't done it on purpose so frankly.... up yours. sweetheart.

Calm down, Tez. You don't accept any measure of responsibility. I disagree.

And also, is it possible that you could cut others some slack for their "economy of words?" I don't observe you giving others the same consideration you demand for yourself.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

... I still think you bear some measure of responsibility, but I get that you didn't mean to break his nose.
...

For what it's worth, I see what happened. Frankly, though, I still think Tez is responsible, particularly as the instructor. I spar with arrogant idiots a lot, and even though they are idiots, I am still responsible if I damage them. If they don't have the good sense to tap, I don't just break their elbows.

Eh, it's one of the differences between grappling and striking arts. In grappling, we have a lot more precise control we can apply on arrogant idiots. In striking, if someone refuses to keep their guard up in sparring because they don't respect their partner then they're just going to get hit. As long as the guy was an adult and Tez wasn't going harder then the expected standard for that class, then I have no problem with it.

 

[Tez3]

Calm down, Tez. You don't accept any measure of respoand nine stonesty. I disagree.

And also, is it possible that you could cut others some slack for their "economy of words?" I don't observe you giving others the same consideration you demand for yourself.

Lol 'calm down' I'm very calm thank you. So I am, at five foot four inches and nine stone wet through as well as being a pensioner am responsible for the fact a six foot tall, fifteen stone soldier in his twenties got his nose broken because he wouldn't put his guard up? You're having a Steffi Graff mate.
As for the rest....pshaw.

 

[Steve]

Lol 'calm down' I'm very calm thank you. So I am, at five foot four inches and nine stone wet through as well as being a pensioner am responsible for the fact a six foot tall, fifteen stone soldier in his twenties got his nose broken because he wouldn't put his guard up? You're having a Steffi Graff mate.
As for the rest....pshaw.

I don't know what having a stefi Graf means and saying up yours sweetheart seems a little other than calm.


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