Youth Black Belts

[shesulsa]

I have to mainly agree with TF on this.

You just have to see the look on people's faces (who don't train, btw, and have never been exposed to martial arts in any way except the school they're in, the competitions they watch and the movies they see) when they announce their 10-yr-old will be testing for second degree.

It is the look of brainwash. The eyes glitter as though they know something you don't. They hold a pride in a belt they bought and paid for in an art very few people have much respect for anymore for the very reasons they are proud of. Try to tell them different and your opinion just doesn't matter because ... you don't know that school or that kid or that teacher.

I know - let's just pass out driver's licenses at the age of 10, voter registration cards at 12 and lower the drinking age to 14.

Sound ridiculous? Selling a family a pretend black belt (poom rank) is just as bad IMNSHO (with the *very* rare exception of a gifted student).

 

[ATC]

I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For the most part, you and I are on the same page;

CHILDREN getting Dan ranks is BAD for EVERYONE

Yes, I agree; children being awarded dan ranks is generally not a good practice.

Definitely, a poom is not a dan. As I have stated in previous threads, poom rank students should wear a poom belt in my opinion (or they should be the most wicked tough elementary school kids in the county). If they are awarded a black belt, then that is between them, their parents, and their teacher.

Having said that, I am not responsible for what the dojo down the street does, nor does what they do reflect on me.

it builds false confidance in the child which can get them killed

Potentially (likely more often than not), though it depends on how it is presented. If the student is told that all it means is that they have learned the basic curriculum and are now simply more advanced beginners, then no harm no foul.

However, if the instructor is telling eight year olds that by virtue of a black piece of cloth that they are now a veritable fighting machine who can take on all comers, then the instructor is indeed doing the child a disservice.

Likewise, if the training is little more than Romperoom daycare with karate-ish exercise, then a black belt is not the appropriate reward.

It makes the art as a WHOLE a joke (yeah, TKD, where even 3 yr olds can be blackbelts)

I think that this is an overstatement. It makes a good number of TKD schools a joke perhaps, but not all of them and not the art itself. The effectiveness of techniques do not change simply because someone put a black belt on an eight year old.

I think that I would rather have my students known for being my students than for the belt around their waist.

it makes every adult that actually EARNED thier Dan rank the equal of 7 year old that still wets the bed but who's check cleared and POOF, he gets a black belt

I cannot agree with you here. It is like saying that a guy who gets his degree from a disreputable online school somehow invalidates the degree that I got from Georgetown (hypothetical; I do not have a college degree).

In the academic world, people know what degrees mean something and which ones are just fluff. Same in martial arts.

From a funtionality standpoint, it actually works to my benefit. If someone decides to try me out because I have a bb in TKD and he thinks it is crap, how much more embarassed will he be after I clean his clock? Could also work to my benefit if the burglar tries to sue me; "Your honor, I know that I have a black belt, but so does my eight year old."

last but not least, it is FRAUD. The parents pay and pay and pay and they THINK they and their kid is getting real training, but they are NOT

Whether or not a kid is getting real training is a different matter from what color belt is being handed out after first keup. It also depends on the age of the child. A ten year old is a child and so is a five year old. But I can train the ten year old in much more specific material, while the five year old will basically be getting coordination drills in the form of kicks and punches and learning some lessons in behavior.

Also, I have seen schools that charge next to nothing that have child BB's, so it is not always about money. Some instructors just have a very different mindset.

I DONT CARE how good your "Grandmaster" is, if the student is 3 he/she is NOT "learning karate".

THANK YOU!! I see so many people say, "my __th dan GM and a couple of __th dan masters say that my son/daughter deserves it, so they do." The rank of the person telling you this does not mean that it is so. It does not mean that they are wrong either, but just remember that it is sometimes (not always) in the financial interest of the school to do so.

REAL martial artists have a duty to stamp out this garbage or at least call it out. This "live and let live" crap is just that, CRAP

While calling out nonsense is admiriable, I think that the term 'real martial artists' is so vague as to be meaningless. I do not know if Terry puts a black belt on his poom students, but if he did because it was the only way to keep his school open, and he changed absolutely nothing else, would he be any less real?

30 years ago, when you heard "he's a black belt" you backed up....now, you tell someone you are a blackbelt, they say "so what, so's my 4 year old"

I hear you!

Though in my experience, it is still that way with the majority of people. There are people that I know who are scared of me because they know that I have one. They have no reason to be; I do not consider myself much of a tough guy and they are all people that I generally like anyway. But once they found out that I have that belt, they started treating me differently.

There are others who are not scared of me, but treat me with greater respect because they admire the hard work that it takes to get a black belt.

The 'they' you mention still knows that his four year old is just a four year old who completed a childrens' program. If 'they' do not, then they are deluded and their opinion is meaningless anyway.

Daniel

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I realize you all are talking mostly about TKD, but the problem is industry wide. There are 3 schools at least in WNY where they have 5yr old "senseis". Yes, automatic promotion to teacher once you get a black belt, with 1 school braggin that no one ever fails their tests "because the instruction is top notch". Another school the head instructor walks you step by step through your forms and techniques during your black belt test. (adult and kids classes, saw it in both).

This is why I hold a low opinion of rank period, and look instead at the persons knowledge, smoothness and confidence, plus what others more knowledgeable on the particular art(s) in question say about them, rather than the color of their belt.

 

[terryl965]

I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.

ATC you are right the requirement are exactly the same, this is where the instructor needs to step in and make them harder and more in depth than a Poom rank. In no way do I ever call my own childern a Dan until they re-take there adult test and pass it. I own and operate a great school, I do not and will not accept rank that is not at all at my standards. I mean we have to understand the difference between what is and is not right. Not saying that little Johnny does not deserve his rank at his school but if little Johnny came to my school and did not know any ground or SD principle little Johnny would go down in rank and retrained for what I teach. As you know I do both Olympic and Traditional TKD and teach both to all my students so we have never had that problem. Every parent that signs up understand my way of thinking and the meaning I hold for a BB.

One thing I truely wish is people would recognized the difference in the rank between a junior and an adult? It would make life so much easier.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan.

Kukkiwon requirements are so general that that officially, there does not need to be.

The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.

I am not picking at you, but since you say that the tests are the same, define same:

Do you mean identical? As in break the same number of the same thickness boards? Or do the children get to break fewer and/or thinner boards?

Do the same number of kicks with the same degree of power and snap? Or are they expected to do the kick with power and snap reasonable for a child their age?

If their is a written section, is their paper graded by the same standards as that of the adults?

Lastly, in the sparring section, do the eight year olds have to spar adults who are expected to go full boar and full contact? Or do they spar other kids their own age and size?

Chances are, the tests are the same format but are not identical, either in the implementation or in the weighting (usually, it is the weighting and the sparring that is different).

Or is the adult test simply adjusted so that it can be passed by a skillful child?

I am not judging your school, by the way. Just consider that kids are very rarely graded as adults.

Daniel

 

[shesulsa]

I just want to add that there is no difference in testing requirements for a Poom or Dan. The test is the same for kids as it is for adults. They even test togeather during the same test. The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff. Adults tend to have a better grasp of the knowledge behind the principles.

Well ... I think that speaks to the quality of the sport and really ... not much more need be said than that.

:asian:

 

[Twin Fist]

PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up

I realize you all are talking mostly about TKD, but the problem is industry wide. There are 3 schools at least in WNY where they have 5yr old "senseis". Yes, automatic promotion to teacher once you get a black belt, with 1 school braggin that no one ever fails their tests "because the instruction is top notch". Another school the head instructor walks you step by step through your forms and techniques during your black belt test. (adult and kids classes, saw it in both).

 

[dancingalone]

The kids often do much better than the adults at the physical stuff.

This tells me you do little in the way of throws, locks, or pins. Not that there's anything wrong with that as the majority of TKD schools don't either.

Even in schools that focus exclusively on that type of material (like my wife's aikido dojo for example), the children have much trouble assimilating material that requires physical sensitivity, and when you compare adults and children with the same amount of mat experience, the adults come out way ahead.

 

[dancingalone]

Another skill set children have trouble with: kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc. Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.

But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools. There are some exceptions, thankfully.

 

[Twin Fist]

in my experience,the younger the kid the LONGER it takes to learn basic movements.

I have ONE 7 year old, he takes on average 1/2 again as long as his 14 year old brother to learn a movement

i told his parents it would likely take him 6-7 years to make BB instead of the average 4 1/2

 

[Bob Hubbard]

PLEASE tell me you are making this crap up

Nope. Sadly I'm not.

 

[Xinglu]

I've seen it out here too. Bob is not making this up...

 

[ATC]

Kukkiwon requirements are so general that that officially, there does not need to be.

We go way above and beyond the KKW test requirements

I am not picking at you, but since you say that the tests are the same, define same:

Do you mean identical? As in break the same number of the same thickness boards? Or do the children get to break fewer and/or thinner boards?

The same. All black belts and Jr. BB are required to break three 1 inch boards with three different techniques. Most adults stick to one board per technique but you can choose to do more if you like. However if you fail to do that more you fail.

You are also required to break 1 brick with the technique of the instructors choice. Most kids only break the 1. Most adults choose between 2 and 4 and some (me included) went as high as 7. Only one guy ever did 9. Same rule applies. You only have to break 1 but if you choose more then you better break them or you fail. 3 attemps at the number you chose.

Do the same number of kicks with the same degree of power and snap? Or are they expected to do the kick with power and snap reasonable for a child their age?

Well more mass means more power but most of the kids I see test have better snap than the adults. The kids usually perform a much more technically correct kick than the adults.

If their is a written section, is their paper graded by the same standards as that of the adults?

The same. I will PM you my daughters 1st poom written essay.

Lastly, in the sparring section, do the eight year olds have to spar adults who are expected to go full boar and full contact? Or do they spar other kids their own age and size?

This is the one question that is a depends for the answer. Most spar kids their own age and size relitivley, but there have been a few that were matched up against old kids. I would say 5 - 7 years difference depending on the individual. There are some on our sparring team that frankly many of our adults just can touch.

Chances are, the tests are the same format but are not identical, either in the implementation or in the weighting (usually, it is the weighting and the sparring that is different).

Maybe the sparring but that is about it. Also the SD is pitted againts kids of same stature.

Or is the adult test simply adjusted so that it can be passed by a skillful child?

Most adults find the test more difficult then the children. I am not sure why there is this under estimation of what a child is capable of. When it comes to pure physical testing, children have more endurance than most adults. Yes an adult can lift more and punch and kick harder but that is mass and weight not physical ability.

A kid that weighs 70 lbs can do as many if not more pushups than a man at 200+ lbs. That goes for situps, squats, kicks and anyother simple exercise. Now I would not expect that same kid to press 200 lbs. but lifting weights is not a part of the test.

I am not judging your school, by the way. Just consider that kids are very rarely graded as adults.

Daniel

Once you reach BB, poom, dan, whatever you want to call it there should be no difference. If the child cannot do it then they will not test or will fail. We only hand out test to those we know are prepared and can pass it.

We have had a few fail. Maybe they did not make all there breaks, or maybe they failed the fittness part of the test. But they should fail if that is the case. It just means you have to wait one more year is all.

With all that said there are also levels of BB at each rank as well. Some barely pass as other pass with flying colors. Two same ranked BB do not mean that they are equal.

 

[ATC]

Another skill set children have trouble with: kobudo or traditional Okinawan weapons practice with sai, nunchaku, bo, eku, tonfa, etc. Most children just don't have the hand-eye coordination to work with these weapons, and Lord spare me from the various Tiny Tiger programs that come equipped with those foam nunchuks.

But again kobudo practice is hardly common in most TKD schools. There are some exceptions, thankfully.

What!?! Have you ever watched the old ESPN ISKA Tournaments that use to come on. There were many kids 11 and under that worked weapons just as good if not better than many adults. I can pull up any number of them right now on YouTube.

 

[ATC]

This tells me you do little in the way of throws, locks, or pins. Not that there's anything wrong with that as the majority of TKD schools don't either.

Even in schools that focus exclusively on that type of material (like my wife's aikido dojo for example), the children have much trouble assimilating material that requires physical sensitivity, and when you compare adults and children with the same amount of mat experience, the adults come out way ahead.

At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.

 

[ATC]

Well ... I think that speaks to the quality of the sport and really ... not much more need be said than that.

:asian:

All I can say is that we have many adults that strugle way more than the kids do. Including myself. Kids have the time to dedicate every day to training, adults don't. Kids recover much faster than adults and take little time off for injury. Most kids move more in a day than most adults move in a week. Seems like much more is needed to be said if you don't realize that kids (not toddlers or babies) can push way past that of what most adults can.

Even our Jr. competition classes are more demanding than our Sr. competition classes. Most 3 day a week adults would pass out if put through some of the stuff I see these 10 - 14 year old go through.

 

[ATC]

ATC you are right the requirement are exactly the same, this is where the instructor needs to step in and make them harder and more in depth than a Poom rank. In no way do I ever call my own childern a Dan until they re-take there adult test and pass it. I own and operate a great school, I do not and will not accept rank that is not at all at my standards. I mean we have to understand the difference between what is and is not right. Not saying that little Johnny does not deserve his rank at his school but if little Johnny came to my school and did not know any ground or SD principle little Johnny would go down in rank and retrained for what I teach. As you know I do both Olympic and Traditional TKD and teach both to all my students so we have never had that problem. Every parent that signs up understand my way of thinking and the meaning I hold for a BB.

One thing I truely wish is people would recognized the difference in the rank between a junior and an adult? It would make life so much easier.

I have no dissagreements with anything you said, but none the less the test are the same. We go way above and beyond that of which KKW requires but we still apply it to both Jr's and Sr's. If the Jr can't hack it he wont test let alone pass. The also applies for the Sr's as well.

 

[dancingalone]

What!?! Have you ever watched the old ESPN ISKA Tournaments that use to come on. There were many kids 11 and under that worked weapons just as good if not better than many adults. I can pull up any number of them right now on YouTube.

Worlds apart from "real" kobudo practice, ATC. I understand you've been exposed almost exclusively to sport weapons work...If you're that interested do some research into traditional weapon work, the grips, the weight of the weapon, etc. The pretty twirling you see with the ultralight staves at those ISKA tournies just can't be done with a bo of the correct weight and dimensions, unless you're a big strong man with super strong wrists and fingers.

Aside from that, look at the TECHNIQUE of the staff wielder. It's obviously just fast and flashy and would not stand against someone wielding a staff AGAINST them. The blocks wouldn't hold, the strikes couldn't pop, and so on.

Not trying to be rude, but come on. ISKA?

 

[dancingalone]

At the extreams yes. But there are always exceptions. Plus that kid that started when they were young will be light years ahead once they reach 18 even. A kid that starts at 4 and sticks with his art will be light years ahead of any adult that tries to start at an adult age.

Sure with punch/kick material.

You can't teach much more than that to a child because their tendons and joints are not properly grown yet and they're just not bodily aware yet to avoid serious injury to themselves or to others. I've expressed this opinion before on other threads: If you are confining yourself to a "simple" punchy, kicky system, then I definitely could see a child being able to learn the system to an expert level. Anything above that to make the system a complete one in my opinion, well not so much.

By the way there's nothing wrong with punchy/kicky systems. They work after all.